Audio transcript

Between the bookshelves – 6. Ashleigh Barton

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JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

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You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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Welcome to episode 6 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by bestselling author Ashleigh Barton. She is the author of multiple picture books including 'What Do You Call Your Grandpa?', 'What Do You Call Your Grandma?', 'How Do You Say I Love You?' and many more. She is also the author of middle grade fiction series 'Solomon Macaroni', 'Freddie Spector, Fact Collector', and her latest release, 'How to Sail to Somewhere', which hit shelves on the 26th of March.

Ashleigh, thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. And I'm good, thanks. How are you?

JADE ARNOLD: I'm so good. It's such a pleasure to have you in here. And I thought before we begin, I thought it would be nice to play a quick little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose from one of them. Feel free to defend your choices if you wish or just go with your answer and give us nothing else. Up to you. Are you ready?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I'm ready.

JADE ARNOLD: Awesome. So, fiction or non-fiction?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: This is a funny one, because the answer is definitely fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: But when I was a kid, I felt like non-fiction was homework. I never really liked it that much until I was an adult, and now I really enjoy non-fiction. But if you made me choose, I'd probably still say fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Physical book or ebook?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Physical, definitely.

JADE ARNOLD: Series or standalone?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, tricky one, but probably standalone.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, OK. Books that make you laugh or books that make you cry?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, can I say both?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Look, I would say both as well.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Depends what mood I'm in.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. [laughs] I like books that do both. They make you laugh and cry at the same time.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Well, thank you so much for that. That was a little bit of fun.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: That was fun.

JADE ARNOLD: So, Ashleigh, one of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. With that in mind, we like to do a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch.

Imagine, if you will, there's a student standing between the bookshelves in their school, or their local library, or in the bookshop in the B section, and they see your titles there on the bookshelves. And maybe there's a little PRC sticker on the spine of the book, and you've got to help them make the decision to take your book home.

Could you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'How to Sail to Somewhere', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, this is a tricky one. So, if the student was standing there, I would probably say to them if they liked a story that had adventure, a little bit of mystery, a lot of friendship, and a little bit of sadness to it, that they would probably enjoy 'How to Sail to Somewhere'.

JADE ARNOLD: I think that's a really good pitch. What type of reader do you think this book would appeal to?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Anyone who was a lot like me as a child, I think. I think out of all of the books I've written so far this one is probably the closest to what I would have devoured as a kid. I would have enjoyed the other ones as well, obviously, but this one I think is particularly what I really enjoyed.

So, I was a very inquisitive, big reader. I loved friendship stories. I loved stories that made me imagine different scenarios and things that I would probably never be in, but still kind of grounded in reality.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, the 2 main characters in the story, or the 2 main child characters in the story, go on an adventure to an island off the coast of this seaside town. And that is not somewhere I lived. It is not something that I would have done, but I would have loved being immersed in that adventure. So, I guess kids that are adventurous, but from a distance.

JADE ARNOLD: I love that. I think the thing that really stood out to me about it was that there is this adventure driving them and driving their growth, but so much of the novel is actually about the growth of those 2 characters and the friendship that slowly blooms between them. So, it's not just this happened and this happened, and then I have to keep going. It's this very heartfelt adventure that grows both of those characters, which is very lovely.

Obviously, as I'm talking about the book here, I obviously got my hands on an advance reader copy of the title. So, I wanted to ask some questions about 'How to Sail to Somewhere' before we talk about your other books, if that's OK.

This book is set in this sleepy little coastal town that becomes a tourist hotspot in summer, but it's never really identified where this town actually is. And it kind of feels like this could be any coastal town in Australia, or maybe even overseas. Despite this, the characters that fill this little town are what bring it to life and make it feel alive.

Was it a really deliberate choice to leave this town ambiguous, and was it inspired by anywhere that you have personally been?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Great question. And yes, so I did want to leave it ambiguous, because to me, just like you said, it could be any town anywhere in Australia or the world.

So, my dad is English, and I spent a lot of time as a child and then as an 18-year-old in the UK, visiting a lot of those coastal towns. So, for me, it's a little bit reminiscent of those UK seaside towns that my family spent a lot of time at my grandparents'.

But then, because I'm Australian and I've grown up here, I think that that's coming through quite a lot as well. I spent a lot of summers at the beach as a child, so I think all that influence has come into the story. And to me, it's not specifically anywhere, but somewhere--

JADE ARNOLD: Could be.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] No, it's great. I love that it's a nice little amalgamation of little coast-side towns all over the place. And it felt very alive.

Something that this book focuses a lot on is the deep loneliness that's caused by the absence of someone that we care really strongly about. We've got Bea, who feels isolated and alone in this tiny town, but her grief is slowly healed over time by Bea's mission to solve her uncle's puzzle. Why do you think it was important to showcase this journey for middle grade readers?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think kids have a really strong understanding of things that go on in the world, whether adults are acknowledging that or not. And I don't think that we should shy away from difficult topics with kids. They're really intuitive. Kids have a lot of big feelings, so showing kids in a safe space that these feelings are OK, and that they're normal, and that a lot of people go through really hard things, and that there can be light at the end of it, I think is really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and I'm sure that would resonate with a lot of young readers that maybe have lost someone in their life. And just seeing that that, over time, it does get easier, is a very important message to have. So, wonderful inclusion of that.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: There's this particularly poignant moment where Bea is trying to find something that her uncle hid, and it's meant to be connected to a memory that she and him hold together. But this becomes so frustrating for her, because almost every place in her house holds a memory with her uncle.

And as the reader, we get this really bittersweet moment where you see her frustration building that's being driven by his absence. But there's also this love and deep connection that's so apparent between Bea and her uncle. What was the inspiration for the relationship between Bea and Uncle Byron?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, that's a tough question, because I'm not really sure what the answer is. I think the characters just kind of appeared to me as an uncle and the niece. And I wanted to write a story sort of centred around grief through the eyes of a child who doesn't quite understand it.

And so, she's sort of abandoned by her parents because they're workaholics. They've kind of buried their heads in the sand, so she's left to deal with it on her own. So, yeah, I don't think I'm answering your question.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, no, that's so fine. Sometimes, it's always so interesting to ask authors where the inspiration comes from, because sometimes it's so clearly a personal event in their own lives, or someone that they've been directly inspired by. But sometimes, it's just this amalgamation of themes, or someone just pops into their head.

So, it's just so interesting, and I'm sure our listeners will find that interesting as well, about how differently authors will create these characters. But Uncle Byron just is this very larger-than-life character that even though he's not present in the book at the time, his spirit kind of lives on, just because he was this-- such an important character in Bea's life. So, yeah, exactly.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: It's really interesting to see how those types of characters form. The idea originally started as a picture book, but it was quite different. So, it was about a little girl whose uncle came to stay, but the uncle was the one that was grieving, and she couldn't understand why he wasn't having fun with her and doing all the things that she really wanted to do.

So, my agent didn't love that one, so I shelved it. And then, the characters kind of came back to me, and I thought, what if this was a middle grade story?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And then, instead of having the uncle be the grieving one, I wanted it to be told through the eyes of a child. Yeah, so it kind of flipped.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. So, the characters were already there and really wanted their story told, by the sounds of it.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: Cool. As you mentioned earlier, the other adults in this book provide this really stark contrast to fun-loving, adventurous Uncle Byron. These parents are physically present, but they're emotionally absent because they're workaholics, and they've just thrown themselves into their work.

And then you've got Arabella's father, who's caring and present, but he shuts down whenever she tries to ask about her mother who left several years ago. But by the end of the novel, they both undergo their own growth and change. Why did you choose to frame the parents in that way?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think it's kind of what I said before. I needed Bea to be left to her own devices, to try and muddle her way through this difficult time without having someone guide her through it. So, that was kind of a big part of her character journey.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And it also-- I think-- it's sort of been a long-standing thing, because having her parents be too busy for her every summer meant there was space for Byron to come.

JADE ARNOLD: And that's why he had such an important part in her life. Yeah. I do like that they had that little change at the end, where-- I shouldn't probably talk too much about the ending of a book in a podcast, should I? But there is a lovely change in their approach and their attitudes that really-- I love it when books, especially middle grade books, show children that parents can sometimes be wrong, and they can have growth as well. I think that's a really important message for kids, that sometimes parents are human. They make mistakes, too, and they're still growing as adults, just like we are. That was really lovely.

Let's come back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say that our young reader is now standing between the bookshelves, having just devoured 'How to Sail to Somewhere', and is after something that will scratch that same itch, or at least a similar one. What books would you suggest that they try next?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, that's tricky. I don't know how to answer this without sounding like I'm comparing myself to some great authors. There's a lot of amazing Australian middle grade. I think 'The Sideways Orbit of Evie Hart' which was on the shortlist last year is really beautiful-- really beautifully written.

I'm also a big fan of classics, like all the Robin Klein books that I read as a child. I met a kid recently who had just finished reading 'Hating Alison Ashley', and I was curious how that stood up after all these years. And she loved it.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a modern classic, isn't it?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, yeah, I absolutely love Robin Klein. Also, 'The Listmaker'-- I feel like maybe that's kind of a similar vein in that a child is struggling through something and struggling on their own. At least that's how I remember the book. I don't know for sure.

I also loved a lot of Judy Blume when I was growing up. But yeah, there's so much amazing Australian middle grade that's been published recently.

JADE ARNOLD: There really has. Those are some great suggestions. Thank you.

The next books I'd like to talk to you about are the 'Freddy Spectre, Fact Collector' series. There's 2 books in this series, 'Space Cadet' and 'Go for Gold', both of which feature on the 3 to 4 book list. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: This book is a book for a kid who might be preferencing non-fiction but is being encouraged to read fiction, or the other way around. So, they combine true facts with a sort of fast-paced plot.

I wrote them for kids who might preference one or the other, because, as I mentioned in the very beginning, when I was a kid, to me, non-fiction felt like homework. I have since learnt that it's not, so I wanted to show kids that non-fiction can be really interesting, and kids who prefer true stories to find that reading can be really fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I can definitely see the types of kids that gravitate to the 'Guinness Book of World Records', or just those big DK fact books, really loving the little fun facts that Freddie collects and gives us throughout the story. That's definitely a perfect recommendation there for your non-fiction-loving kids. But as you said, also the inverse for that as well.

Freddie is this really quirky, unique character that I think young readers will be really drawn to and has this insatiable desire for learning new things. What was the inspiration for Freddie's character?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, so Freddie, I don't know. I think he's kind of probably a mash-up of lots of different people in my life. I don't know if I was a particularly fact-collecting child. I was definitely more into fiction and creative stories. I once had to do an assignment about parachutes, and my answer to why parachutes fly is that they're magic. So--

[laughter]

I definitely don't think Freddie's based on me as a child. But as I've grown older, I have loved collecting facts and information. So, it may be a little bit of my adult personality. But yeah, him as a child, I think probably just an amalgamation of lots of people I've known.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I love that. I can see Freddie in so many students that I've taught, but also my nephews in particular, who just love sharing little facts with me. So, once they're a little bit older, because they're a bit too young to read by themselves, but I can see them diving into this and adding to the list of telling their auntie all the things that she didn't know. I can't wait. It sounds good.

There's a lot of fun facts in this book, as we've mentioned. How did you find that balance between including educational content and keeping the plot moving and the story interesting for younger readers?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Great question. So, in terms of the facts, my self-imposed brief for those was things that were fun, unique and a bit unusual. I wanted facts that someone would say to someone else, 'Oh, did you know?' because it was so interesting.

And I'm not a particularly sporty person, so I felt like I was a really good benchmark. And also, the thought of going into space terrifies me. So--

[laughter]

Another good benchmark, I felt like if I find the facts in the sports book and the space book interesting, then surely other people will as well. But my agent's husband is really sporty, and when she was reading it, she kept reading facts out to him, and he thought they were interesting. So, I feel like we've got--

JADE ARNOLD: You've got both spectrums there.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah. And then, yeah, in terms of the plot, I wanted that to be relatable to things that would happen in a real child's life and to keep it moving as quickly as possible. And I themed each chapter around a subtopic, so I think-- trying to remember-- there's a star chapter maybe. And I think that I've kind of tied the plot slightly to that, but--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's a really good way of balancing it. Let's move on now to your next series for middle grade readers, the 'Solomon Macaroni' series. There's also 2 books in this series, 'Solomon Macaroni and the Cousin Catastrophe' and 'Solomon Macaroni and the Vampire Vacation', both of which are also on the 5 to 6 book list. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: OK, so I would-- if I was standing in front of a child in a library, I would tell them that if they wanted something funny with a tiny touch of spooky, not very scary, that they might enjoy 'Solomon Macaroni'. So, he is a vampire, but he does not possess any of the powers that we know vampires to have, other than the ability to live a really long time. So, he's very polite, very friendly. He loves eating garlic and chocolate. So, yeah, he's a twisted version of a vampire.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I really loved that. It was very entertaining. Obviously, when people think of vampires in fiction, they don't tend to associate it with middle grade novels, or with being friendly or polite, or eating tofu and garlic. What inspired you to write a story around vampires like this for this series?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Well, actually, Solomon was a character that I came up with when I was about 8 or 9, and he's just stuck in my head all this time, waiting and waiting for me to write a story about him again. And so, when it came to writing the story, I kind of had this problem, because I didn't see him as a traditional vampire. So, I kind of rewrote the world around him and made it a place where magic doesn't exist-- or does it?-- to make it make sense that Solomon was a vampire and not just a regular boy.

JADE ARNOLD: Right, OK. That's really interesting. I love that. Last, but certainly not least, I'd like to talk about your numerous picture books. You've worked with illustrator Martina Heiduczek with 6 books now-- 'What Do You Call Your Grandpa?', 'What Do You Call Your Grandma?', 'What Do You Call Your Dad?', 'What Do You Celebrate?', 'How Do You Say I Love You?', and 'How Do You Say Hello?'. All of these titles feature on the K to 2 book lists. Could you give us your pitch for these books and tell us a bit what they're about?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, of course. So, I kind of like to break it down into 'What do you call?' 'What do you do?' and 'How do you say?' So, the 'What do you call?' books are about families around the world, the different names we call our grandparents, and currently our dads. But in 2026, we'll also have mums in that list.

So, that was inspired by me trying to find a book for my dad for his first Father's Day as a grandfather. And all I could find were Granddad or Grandpa, but he doesn't go by those names. So, I thought about all the kids in Australia that don't use those names, whether it's a nickname or a cultural name. So, I wanted to create this book for every kid and their grandparents, no matter what they're called.

And then 'What Do You Do to Celebrate?', that's about end-of-year celebrations, so everything kind of starting with Hanukkah and ending with Lunar New Year, so all those different celebrations that take place around the world, the end of the year, including Christmas and New Year's.

And 'How do you say?' That's phrases around the world. So, similar concept, just looking at different families and friends and people around the world, basically.

JADE ARNOLD: I'd normally ask what type of readers you would recommend this to, but I honestly think these books are both fantastic and important books for all young readers to be exposed to. I think they're fantastic to have in a classroom as a read-aloud, and just a fantastic example of Australian multiculturalism.

But I would like to ask, what type of reader were you thinking of when writing these books, or is it mostly drawn from that initial desire to have some connection with your own family?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, I don't think I had a particular reader in mind, just anyone with a grandparent. Because that's where the very first ideas were, the 2 grandparent stories, so anyone with a grandparent who they didn't necessarily call Grandma or Grandpa, although those are also included. So, yeah, I guess it was just sort of families that use different names for their grandparents is really where the initial idea started.

JADE ARNOLD: And then it just steamrolled from there and kept going. That's awesome. I think that it can be this assumption that picture books are easy to write, because they're so much shorter than a novel, but I imagine that that is not actually the case. And, in fact, the authors that I've spoken to often tell me about how hard it can be writing for picture books. And for these ones in particular, I imagine a lot of research went into them. Can you tell us a bit about how different the writing process is for a picture book, and what it's like working with an illustrator to bring the story to life?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, of course. So, with these particular ones, they're not plot-based, so each double-page spread is really its own little story. So, yeah, I sort of imposed a structure on myself for these stories where it's an AABB rhyming structure. And the last word of the fourth line is the foreign word or phrase, so that the last word of the third line rhymes with that word to guide the reader for the pronunciation.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's really clever, but also tricky, I imagine.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, it got tricky with the writing process, especially with 'How Do You Say I Love You?' because that is a phrase rather than just one word. So, I needed to find short versions of that in other languages so that it worked with the meter and also with the rhyme. So, it did get very challenging.

So, with the dad book especially and the mum book, a lot of different languages overlap, and they use the same words, so finding enough to fill the book got challenging. But yeah, so my process was to do a lot of research around languages, and then I tried to make sure I was representing as many different types of families and family activities as possible. So, that's how I structured those. So, yeah, completely different than writing a narrative-style picture book or a middle grade novel.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and a lot of work.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Completely different. Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: And was there a lot of interaction between you and the illustrator, or was it a case of that being given to the Illustrator, then them giving it back to you with their ideas, and how does that process work?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: In my manuscript, I would just have a one-liner that explained what I was imagining to happen in that scene. So, for example, there's a grandma riding a seesaw, which is in the text, so that was kind of prescriptive for Martina. But my illustration direction just would have been 'grandma and kid playing at the park', and then she ran with it from there.

So, I didn't see anything until she had drawn the rough illustrations, what they call the rough, so the black and white. And then I'm given an opportunity to provide feedback. But Martina is amazing, so I've never had to say.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that's great.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I've never had to say, I don't like that at all. And then I see them again when they're finished in colour. So, it's a completely separate collaboration.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, OK, there you go. That's really interesting. For the young readers who really enjoyed these books, or, perhaps, the parents or the teachers who read them to the young readers in their lives and loved them, what other picture books do you think they should try?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, there's a lot, I guess, of multicultural picture books. One that I particularly love is 'Lunch at 10 Pomegranate Street'. Do you know that one?

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, yes.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And 'A Year in Fleurville', which is kind of--

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I'm not familiar with that.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, that's the follow-up.

JADE ARNOLD: Right.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, they're kind of multicultural, foodie-based books, and they're so beautifully illustrated.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, they're really beautiful, beautifully illustrated. I love those ones, and my kids love those ones.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. Well, we'll put those books and the authors in the show notes for any of our listeners to check out.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: You've written another picture book, 'Dinosaur in My Pocket', with Blithe Fielden, and this book is also on the K to 2 book list. Could you give us your final 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this book?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: This picture book is completely different to my other picture books-- narrative-based, for starters. So, it is about a little boy who loves dinosaurs and miniatures more than anything in the world. And when he goes on a school excursion to a museum and sees a miniature triceratops in the gift shop, he can't help himself, and he takes the dinosaur. So, as his guilt grows, so does the dinosaur, until he can no longer hide either. And then he has an opportunity to do the right thing.

So, I think this book is for any kid who might have made a mistake or has been tempted to make a mistake. It's not supposed to be a lessons book necessarily, but it does show that if we do make a mistake, there is a way to fix it always.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it was lovely. And the highlight of the book for me was how the parents, when they found out that James had taken the dinosaur, they didn't yell at him. They didn't punish him, but they did make it very clear that they're disappointed. But then they guided him and supported him to be accountable for his actions and take steps to rectify his mistakes.

Why did you choose to present the parents' actions in this way?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I guess it's just more of an effective approach to help a kid learn why what they've done is wrong and how to fix it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, I think teaching kids that mistakes happen, mistakes can be fixed, is a really valuable lesson.

JADE ARNOLD: And having the parents there to show them that process and encourage them on that path. Because I know, having dealt with a lot of kids that age, it's often there's that fear of being wrong. And they'll double down and say, 'No, I didn't, no, I didn't, no, I didn't.' Whereas if you can show them this approach, they're much more likely to come out and say, 'OK, well, yeah, I did, but now we can fix it.'

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: Which is lovely and a very important message, I think, for young readers.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And I do think guilt stays with you if you don't fix a mistake. Even all these years later, when my little sister got blamed for something I broke, I still feel bad about it. So, coming clean and fixing your mistakes is the only way to get rid of those bad feelings.

JADE ARNOLD: I love that. I know you're fresh off releasing your latest books, but are there any new titles that you're currently working on, if you're allowed to share them with us, other than 'What Do You Call Your Mum?'

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yes. So, I'm always working on something, because I always have a million ideas in my head. I've got an idea for a middle grade that is kind of in the same vein as 'How to Sail to Somewhere', so a sort of friendship, adventure-based story, but that's very early stages.

I've also got a picture book coming out later in the year called 'Hedgehog or Echidna?' which is about animals that look similar but are different.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that's exciting.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, that one's really fun. That's a rhyming story, different again. I feel like I say that all the time. And then, yeah, so I've just always got-- I've got a bunch of picture book manuscripts that I'm tinkering away at, and other ideas in my head that I'm trying to solve.

JADE ARNOLD: Awesome. And I love the fact that you are working on yet another, I guess, non-fiction-based picture book, when you yourself weren't much of a non-fiction reader as a kid. I love that. I love how you're making an effort to make that really approachable for young readers who would have been just like you at that age.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: That's awesome, really excited to read those when those come out.

As an author, I feel it's pretty safe to assume that you think spending time reading for leisure is really important. Do you have any words of wisdom you'd like to share with teacher librarians or classroom teachers or parents who are trying to nurture a love of reading in their students or children?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think I'm going to say what almost everyone says, and that is to let kids read what appeals to them. So, if reading is fun, then kids are going to do it. So, forcing them to read things that they hate is not going to encourage a love of reading.

So, I know a lot of people feel like graphic novels aren't necessarily reading, but they absolutely are. So, yeah, whatever your kid or your students want to read, let them read them.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And it can be a little bit hard sometimes, if you've got a reader who is a reluctant reader, for them to find that. But I really would always say to them, it's kind of like picking your favourite ice cream flavour at the ice cream store. You've got to go through that kind of socially anxious moment of, 'Oh, can I try this? Oh, I didn't like that. Can I try this? Oh, I didn't like that.' And you have to keep trying. But if you keep trying, eventually you will find something that's out there.

And yeah, I love graphic novels in particular, or verse novels, for that exact point. I think that's a message that bears repeating as many times as we absolutely can.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Exactly. And I think this is a bit of a self-serving answer, but getting kids to engage with authors as much as possible I think does make a difference. Back in my book publicist days, when I took an author once to a school talk, and then a following school talk the next day, where one of the teachers at that school had had a kid at the other school. And she said, 'Before you came to speak to him, he did not want to touch your books, and then after, he's devoured' this author's 'books that night'.

So, having that interaction with the author, and learning that there's a real person behind a book and that-- real ideas behind a book, that can really make a difference to a kid's level of engagement.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And just for that student to then be able to sit there, and read the book, and think, 'Oh, I met that person,' and here's a hint of their humour, or a hint of their personality in this story, just definitely really deepens that connection and can create some really special memories and some really positive reading experiences.

On that note, for any teachers out there who would be interested in booking you for an author visit, how can these schools book you, and what can they expect from you?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, yeah, of course I love visiting schools. It's actually one of my favourite parts of being a children's author. I love coming and speaking to kids. Kids have the best ideas, and the best questions, and amazing imaginations.

So, I have 2 speakers agents, Lamont Authors and Creative Kids Tales. So, they can feel free to book through either of those or contact me directly through my website. That's an option, too.

I kind of changed my talks a lot, so they could expect anything really. But I do like to talk a lot about how reading and writing as a child turned me into an author today, where my ideas come from. Sometimes I talk a lot about the generation of ideas, how to find ideas, what to do when you have a good idea, characters, creating characters, and, yeah, the foundations, the basics of writing and creative storytelling. I try to keep things as fun and interactive as possible.

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds amazing. I also feel like you would have some good answers for this one. Can you recommend any titles that you think our listeners need to know about, or would make fantastic additions to a school library collection?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, if we're talking about picture books, 2 of my favourites in recent years that I've read a lot to my children are 'Farmhouse' by Sophie Blackall. I'm obsessed with that book. It is so clever and so special. We've read that book hundreds of times.

And I also really love 'The Snail and the Whale' by Julia Donaldson. I think she can do no wrong, and that's one of my favourites of hers. So, these books are probably already on all bookshelves in schools.

JADE ARNOLD: But just in case now.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, just in case.

JADE ARNOLD: Are there any middle grade titles that really come to mind as being essential library books?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think the ones I said before, so 'Hating Alison Ashley', that should stay on shelves for sure, and 'The Sideways Orbit of Evie Hart' is amazing, too.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, awesome. And what are you currently reading now, or what are you excited to dive into next?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, such a good question. My TBR, as they call it, 'To be read' pile is enormous. So, I'm reading an adult novel at the moment, but I also just started 'The Six Summers of Tash and Leopold'.

JADE ARNOLD: You're in for a treat.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yes, which I'm enjoying as well.

JADE ARNOLD: We interviewed Danielle Binks for episode 3 of this podcast and spoke about that, so our listeners would be very familiar with that. But you're in for an absolute treat with that one. Enjoy.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you. I'm excited.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Ashleigh. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your wonderful books. And I'm sure that there are many teacher librarians out there excited to share your books with their students as they work to complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you so much.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: It was so nice chatting to you. I had a really great time.

JADE ARNOLD: Me, too.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.