Audio transcript

Between the bookshelves – 7. Gina Krohn

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 7 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by Gina, who is a teacher librarian and the Premier's Reading Challenge coordinator at a primary school in south-west Sydney. Gina is well-known throughout the teacher librarian community for her tireless work supporting teacher librarians to connect, collaborate and share quality resources. She's the creator of the Primary Libraries: Creative Collaboration website and related free, elective professional development for teacher librarians. She's also the creator of the Backpack Project, so it was no surprise when she was awarded the John Hirst Award in 2022 by the NSW School Library Association, which recognises excellence in professional leadership or service for NSW teacher librarians.

Gina-- thank you for joining me today. How are you?

GINA KROHN: Oh, I'm blushing after that introduction. I'm very well, thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: It was hard to condense everything down into an intro that short. I could have gone on for much, much longer. But thank you so much for joining us today.

Before we dive into our interview, I thought it would be nice to play a little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can defend your choices if you wish, or you can just stand on your answer by yourself. Are you ready?

GINA KROHN: I am so ready.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing, let's go.

GINA KROHN: Cool.

JADE ARNOLD: Fiction or non-fiction?

GINA KROHN: Fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Physical book or ebook?

GINA KROHN: Always, always physical.

JADE ARNOLD: Ebook or audiobook?

GINA KROHN: I've never actually listened to an audiobook. I don't think I could concentrate.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh my gosh. OK. Good answer.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, ebook.

JADE ARNOLD: Series or standalone?

GINA KROHN: Oh, it depends on the book.

JADE ARNOLD: That's a good answer.

GINA KROHN: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Books that make you laugh or books that make you cry?

GINA KROHN: Oh, I'd probably prefer a book that makes me laugh, because I think there's enough in the world to make me cry.

JADE ARNOLD: And a last question. Fantasy or historical fiction?

GINA KROHN: Fantasy.

JADE ARNOLD: Mm.

GINA KROHN: I do like historical fiction, but I live in John Flanagan's world, I'm sure.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh my gosh, yes.

GINA KROHN: I'm probably a tree, but I still live there.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] So, Gina, can you tell us a little bit about your journey towards becoming a teacher librarian?

GINA KROHN: Sure. So, I'm not going to admit to a age, I-- to-- my first year out after uni, I got a job as a librarian. I was actually trained as a classroom teacher. So, I was in the library, and I really liked it. But I was also trying to do postgrad work at uni, and I couldn't manage the 2.

So, I left, went back to uni, and then when my kids were in school, I took a long break, a very big hiatus. I caught up with a friend who was a teacher librarian on the South Coast, and we'd worked together at Amnesty International. And she'd gone off and done teacher librarianship. And she said, 'Oh, you'd be great, you know, you really like books. Do it.' So, I did.

JADE ARNOLD: That's fantastic. I love that your journey actually started in a library, and it came full circle. And now you are this person who, within the teacher librarian community, is, I guess, one of the go-tos for advice and resources and inspiration. So, a very fitting start.

GINA KROHN: Which I think is a bit funny if you don't mind me saying. But anyway, if I can help, I'm happy to help. But yeah, I'm by no means an expert.

JADE ARNOLD: As I mentioned earlier, you're the PRC coordinator at your school. Why do you choose to run this program there?

GINA KROHN: I like the idea of the PRC because I like that there's something that can offer the kids a way to read across genres and to get out of their one little comfort zone. So, I always encourage them, when they do the PRC, to read across a whole lot of different genres and to move on. And it's good with Kindy and Year 2, Kindy to Year 2, sorry, because I choose the books for them. So, we do cross a lot of different things. But I don't get the numbers 3 to 6, and I would really like to.

And actually, we had a meeting, quite a few librarians, we ended up at the state library just earlier this week. And talking about the Premier's Reading Challenge, and how some of them actually say, 'You have to do it.' And I'm thinking of going back and doing that because 3 to 6 they lose, especially in 5 to 6, they lose the desire to read. And I think that's tragic. And there's so many fabulous books out there. So, I just want them to read and enjoy it.

JADE ARNOLD: Obviously, I'm very biased here, but I think for me, the beauty about the PRC is the fact that schools can implement it in whatever way suits them. And, you know, in a certain case, if you look at how you're running it at your school and you feel like, OK, this isn't working because it's not reaching the students I want it to reach, what can we change up here? It has the flexibility for you to kind of, you know, it's just a framework. You can implement it however you like. And giving them an excuse to get students reading and hopefully pick up that habit and maintain that habit throughout their schooling is really what we're hoping for. So, that's lovely.

Can you tell us a little bit about how you run the PRC at your school, and how you keep students engaged and motivated with their reading?

GINA KROHN: Well, as I said, with K to 2, I do it during library lessons. So, we read, and we count down. We always identify the red sticker, and, you know, the kids all race up and say, 'I've got a red sticker book!'

[laughter]

'That's-- I'm so proud of you.' So, they're kind of easy to manage.

With 3 to 6, I've tried quite a few different things. I often-- I'll give book prizes to the kids that complete the challenge early on. I do try to encourage them to borrow from my library, but I think visuals are the best. And this, again, we were talking about this on Tuesday. And a lot of people had tried all sorts of things, key rings and parties and all that sort of stuff. But I think consensus really came about saying they just like a visual to see where they're progressing.

JADE ARNOLD: I agree with you so much. I think I've tried a few different things in the past when I was working in a school. And I would do little versions of that, like whether it be one year I had a tree. And every time a student completed the PRC, they'd get a leaf with their name on it to add to the tree, so that by the end of the year, the tree was nice and full. Or most recently, and this template is actually on the PRC website, just putting books on a bookshelf using a Canva template. Print those off. Cut out a piece of brown cardstock to create a shelf for each class, and labelling each class. So, it became this little class competition.

GINA KROHN: Oh gosh, they're so into competition, aren't they?

JADE ARNOLD: You're so on the spot, right, with just having some sort of visual of-- you walk into the library space, and you see that reminder of, 'Oh, that's right, I want to try and finish the PRC. I want to beat this class.' Or even, 'I just want to see my name up there. I want to see that I can do it and believe that I can do it.'

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: So, yeah, I think that's a really good piece of advice or a really good strategy.

GINA KROHN: The other thing I think is really important, too, is to capture the kids that don't normally even engage in reading is to throw out all the different books that they can read. So, I'm going to be focusing on picture books this time. So, that's thanks to Penny Harrison's idea.

JADE ARNOLD: That's awesome. Yeah, I think, obviously, engaging even older students with picture books. I would use it in high school as well as a really easy way for students to get into the PRC and get them reading, especially if they're someone who hasn't read a full book in years, or they have underlying issues with reading. Maybe they're dyslexic, or they have some other learning issue that is preventing them from being able to access books in the way that most other peers their age can. But yeah, it's such an easy but beautiful way to get students engaged, even in a high school setting, I think. So, that's a really good strategy as well. I love that.

GINA KROHN: My other strategy, sorry, and I just threw it at the teachers today because I did my little round of all the various meetings, I put it back on the teachers. If they mention a book, and we know this, if they mention a book and they say, 'This is a really good book,' the kids will come in and ask for it. So, it's talking and walking at the same time.

JADE ARNOLD: Selling, selling them the books.

GINA KROHN: That's right.

JADE ARNOLD: Advertising them. Yeah, absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: What advice would you provide to a teacher or teacher librarian who is coordinating the PRC for the first time?

GINA KROHN: I would definitely cater to yourself. I think there are individual parents that like reading to their kids and logging their progress and things like that, and that's great. But I think for ease of management, to actually do it yourself. And I always try to get them to do their own logging from Year 3 to Year 6. Obviously, I think you have to be careful with that because you have to know that the kids have read the books and all that sort of thing, but I just wouldn't make it too hard.

Maybe set up a bunch of books that have just got the PRC sticker on them in the one spot, so kids know where to go. I mean, they're usually obvious because you've got the sticker on them anyway but even having them just in the one location for a while, I've tried that a couple of times. And as we said before, with the picture books, pull those out because they often don't even realise that they're there. 'Oh my gosh, I can do this in a day.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, exactly. Oh, it feels like cheating. I'm cheating the PRC. Are you really? They're all on the book list. [laughs] OK, sure. You have cheated. [laughs] Wink wink.

GINA KROHN: But you've read a book. Haha.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Exactly.

GINA KROHN: We got you.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. Tricking them into reading.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Yeah. I just think that-- don't make it too hard. Don't feel like you're losing the battle if you don't get every child, because there are some kids that will never do it. OK? And even if you do make it compulsory, they won't necessarily finish the challenge. So, just incrementally build it up.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, don't feel like you have to do everything at once, and do what's sustainable for you.

GINA KROHN: Yes, yes, and don't go out and pauper yourself by buying prizes and things like that. Because as I said, visuals are just as good. And never underestimate the spirit of competition between classes and teachers.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. Exactly. Very, very good words of wisdom.

GINA KROHN: [laughs] Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: What are some of the things that you tried to prioritise in your school library to make reading accessible and engaging and interesting for your students?

GINA KROHN: Well, to make reading accessible, I obviously try to have a huge range of books. So, I don't particularly like graphic novels, but I do have quite a decent range of those. I don't actually have a lot of manga because I find it very hard to monitor the appropriateness, I suppose.

JADE ARNOLD: Especially at a primary level.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. And in series, they start off quite OK, and then next thing you know, you're confronted by something that you think, 'Oh, OK, that's probably not so good.'

And I try to make the library really visually appealing. So, the kids really like coming in. I'm very friendly, I think, and very easygoing. So, I generally get quite a lot of kids in at lunchtime. And I do-- with all the different things that you do throughout the year to try and get a little bit of feedback from kids, I find that they do like coming to the library. I change it up as much as I can, and they come in and they have a look. And, you know, 'Ooh, look at that.'

JADE ARNOLD: That sense of excitement over, 'Oh my gosh, what has Miss done in the library today? Oh my gosh. Look at this new display. Ooh, that's new. I didn't see that before.' Yeah, that-- just really creating that sense of wonder.

GINA KROHN: Yes. Yeah. I mean, there was also 3 years ago, I think, I put a whole lot of little Star Wars characters around that were my son's for the fourth of May.

JADE ARNOLD: Star Wars Day? Yeah.

GINA KROHN: And I lost the ladder for a while. So, they're still up there.

[laughter]

But the kids still like that sort of thing.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

GINA KROHN: So, yeah, making it physically appealing. And my library is very tiny. I call it a shoebox library. So, probably doesn't take me as long as other people to put up displays and things, and I don't always get them finished.

But I talk books all the time. I wear books. So, all my-- when I go to work, all my T-shirts talk about books. And some kids say, you know, 'Why do your T-shirts always talk about books?' And I look at them and go, 'Well, why do you think?'

[laughter]

You know, book earrings, book brooches, you name it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

GINA KROHN: Found some book hair ties the other day, so you know.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I love that.

GINA KROHN: Got those going. Yeah. So, when they see me, they know. It's that immediate association. And I am very enthusiastic when I talk about books.

JADE ARNOLD: I think that's so important, too, just having students see your passion for reading. Especially for someone who may not be super excited by the idea of reading, it really will make them think over time, 'Why is my teacher so obsessed with reading? Why do you think it's as good as it is? What's going on here?' And might actually be the thing that persuades them to try something new or try to pick up a book.

And for those kids who are already voracious readers, it's that really good, positive feedback loop of, 'Oh, you love this? I'm really passionate about this. Let me share something with you,' and then I'll go share that with my friends. And it just becomes that school-wide culture.

GINA KROHN: Mm, and that's what we're trying to do at my school, is to build up that culture with the kids from the ground. And I think we've had some success in the last couple of years. But yeah, it's the enthusiasm, and the honesty, too. I mean, I do tell them, 'If you don't like the book, don't read it.'

JADE ARNOLD: Put it down.

GINA KROHN: I will never read 'Captain Underpants'. Don't ask me.

JADE ARNOLD: If it's not for you, it's not for you.

GINA KROHN: Exactly. Exactly, and-- and I don't judge.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, exactly. I would always have-- I give myself this rule, but if I'm not enjoying a book after 3, maybe 4 chapters, it's time to put it down. It's not for me. I might come back to it. And I would have that talk as well with my students of, you know, 'give it a shot'. You can't tell from page 3 if whether or not--

GINA KROHN: Or the first 2 lines.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. 'Oh, I'm bored.' OK, you've read one page.

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's figure out who these characters are first and what they're doing. But yeah, having a guideline of, at least try 3 chapters, and then if you still don't like it, it's not for you. Put it down. Try something else and keep trying to find the book that you like.

GINA KROHN: That's right. And as I say to them, 'We have thousands of books in the library.' And they go, 'What, really?'

JADE ARNOLD: One of them's got to be for you.

GINA KROHN: That's right.

JADE ARNOLD: I mean, hopefully more than one.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: I'm sure many, but at least one. [laughs] Beyond the PRC, what are some of the key things your job as a teacher librarian entails?

GINA KROHN: Wow. OK, well.

JADE ARNOLD: How long is a piece of string?

GINA KROHN: How long is a piece of string? How long is 2 pieces of string? Because I think essentially, we all know, those of us in the job, that it is 2 jobs. It's 2 distinct jobs. So, there's the teaching side of it, which, in my school, I focus on information literacy and the love of reading and try very hard to work with the kids on building their skills for high school. I tell them if they get to high school and they froth at the mouth when they hear the word plagiarism, I have done my job. Yeah, we do not copy and paste.

And the library job is being a librarian. So, it is all the admin side of it, which is time-consuming. Looking for good books, looking for the right fit with the books is time-consuming.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a very detailed skill as well. It's not just a case of looking at a new catalogue and going, 'OK, I'm going to buy all the ones where the covers look nice,' or 'I'm going to buy this,' or 'I'm going to buy what's cheapest.' There's a lot of thought that goes into every purchase.

GINA KROHN: Yes. And I think it's really important to bear in mind your audience, I suppose. So, I mean, I buy for the children. OK, I confess that there are a lot of fantasy books in my library, but I do encourage them to read them. But also, supporting your staff, which is not as big a deal in my school now because everything's online. But it's still, we work together to get the kids to read.

And I've had a few teachers come in and ask for stacks of fiction books or stacks of non-fiction books, and things like that. So, it's being able to manage the admin side of that, as well as the library side, which is knowing the right book to give to the kids at their age or their stage or whatever.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's that real fusion of both being a teacher and being a librarian is being able to find the books that are engaging and at the right kind of level for those students.

GINA KROHN: And excite them enough to take the next step to move out of the little niche that they're already in. Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a difficult skill, but one that I know that you do well.

GINA KROHN: [laughs] Well, I don't know if I do it well, but I enjoy it.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, that's half the battle, isn't it?

One of the key aims of this podcast is to assist teacher librarians, teachers or parents in helping their students or children find their first, or their next, great read, because it can often be so overwhelming for students when they're standing between the bookshelves and trying to figure out what to read next.

As a teacher librarian, how do you help connect your students with their next great read?

GINA KROHN: I try to read as much as I can of the books that come into the library. Obviously, with picture books, that's kind of easy. I do tell the kids I'm not going to read some particular books, but I do try to read everything so I can give them really authentic feedback. I don't really like saying, 'Oh, I read the blurb and this looks really good.' So, I like to get into the book and get them into the book. So, I try that.

With parents, I don't often recommend to parents through the newsletter. That's one way that I communicate with the parents. But for me, I look at things like the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast and those sorts of things because, obviously, they're really-- they're overwhelming because there's so much traffic on there. But they do give really good suggestions, and I use that to feed the kids, too.

And also asking the kids what they really want, too, because every now and then they'll say, 'Have you got in something different? I want to try something different. I want to try a sad story,' or whatever. So, yeah, often led by the kids. But yeah, my main skill, I suppose, is just reading really quickly and being able to get--

JADE ARNOLD: Reading very widely.

GINA KROHN: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important. And also, 'Your Kid's Next Read' is a fantastic resource. That was actually part of the inspiration in starting this podcast.

GINA KROHN: Oh, OK, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: But obviously where that is focused very heavily on the parent side of things, we want to try and support teacher librarians very specifically. And maybe parents will find this useful as well.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Other podcasts or things, blogs particularly I suppose, is Margot Lindgren's blog. What she doesn't know about books, I think is not worth knowing, and she has really good reviews on hers. But there's quite a lot. And off the top of my head, I can't really think of them, I suppose, but I can see them.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

GINA KROHN: But I can't really think of them. But I find the biggest trap to that sort of thing is time, because it does actually take quite a lot of time to go through and really decide whether or not you want those books in your library. Are they suitable? Are they even-- because quite a lot of books, I suppose, that I see reviews for are from the States, and very different audience. It's kind of difficult finding books here, I think, that can really grab our kids.

JADE ARNOLD: And just having that authentic Australian voice, even if it's a book by an Australian author, not necessarily in an Australian setting, it might be a fantasy setting or even overseas, but having that authentic Australian voice is something that I think students really connect to, and being able to see themselves and their own experiences, and seeing their own culture and experiences reflected in the books that they read.

There's always going to be, I think, overseas books that do hit the Australian market that are very popular. But it's also so important, I think, to give students the opportunity to read something that reflects their own as well.

GINA KROHN: I think for teacher librarians, a really good service is not just to look at standing orders and things like that, but to go out. And I'm thinking of bookshops that I'm sure are in every city, but like Lost In Books here, which is a lot of different books from different backgrounds, very multicultural. And we need to look at those sorts of things.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. Yeah. I think standing orders are a really good starting point, but they don't let you make it customised to your particular school environment. So, there's always that need for you to have a collection that you're curating that is very much reflective of your students and their particular interests, and the types of things that they want to see in their reading and on the shelves at the library. So, yeah, that's--

GINA KROHN: I think standing orders are great, again, going back to beginning teacher librarians, because if you get those, you know you're going to be getting the popular books for the kids, which is fantastic. And it frees you up to spend time on other parts of the job, because there's a lot of them. So, doing that for a year or 2, I think, takes that pressure of curating off. And that gives you time to learn your school, to learn your collection, and learn the kids. So, they do have a place.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's some really good advice. Thank you.

Now, I think every teacher librarian has encountered students who don't enjoy reading. What are some of the strategies you use with students who don't see themselves as readers in your school library?

GINA KROHN: I did say before, I'm not a big fan of graphic novels, but I do try to introduce those to the kids. There's some fantastic authors working with graphic novels, too, so it's not just the really popular spag bol ones.

[laughter]

For want of a better term. So, I will try those. But I also-- I've divided my library. So, I have a junior fiction section, which is often just picture books and very early chapter books. And then I have a middle fiction section, and it basically is supposed to cater from Year 2 through to Year 6. So, they're all in the one spot, and they're all broken up into Premier's Reading Challenge. So, we have the stickers on them. So, you might have some Year 5 to 6 stickers in the middle fiction section.

But my hope was-- I didn't want to have fast reads or easy reads and things like that, so I wanted to have a middle fiction section where nearly any kid in the school could browse in that area and find something. So, I have the picture books in there for middle fiction. I'm using inverted commas for those.

JADE ARNOLD: Air quotes. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, I try to have picture books in there. I'll have graphic novels in there, and I mix them up as well, and just try to have a really good range of exciting, I suppose, books. I mean, I'm thinking Kristen Darell's new books are great ones. They are easy reads. OK. But for kids who are really interested in animals and might not have an interest in doing very much else, they'll jump into them. So, I think that's the key, though. It's just having a range of books, that you know you can pull something out for a kid.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Here's your soccer book. Here's your cricket book. Here's your Minecraft book.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Something that we ourselves as adult readers would not enjoy, but we know that will spark that joy in someone else.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. And selling it to them with enthusiasm, and 'I would never read this, but if you read this, please come and tell me because then I need to tell somebody else about it.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And if you like it, come back and tell me so we can rant about how good it was.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, you might convince me to read it.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. I loved getting recommendations off my students, and going and reading the books that I would have probably never have thought to pick up myself, and then coming back to it and being like, 'You know what? I actually see what you'd like in this.' And sometimes there'd be fantastic recommendations. I think that's a really powerful conversation to have that goes both ways of, you know, 'What you like, OK, sell it back on to me.' But obviously, giving them the opportunity to have everything in that library space that will appeal to them, regardless of what it is.

GINA KROHN: And things like book tastings and stuff like that. So, they can do that and there's no pressure on them to read the whole book. But I do also say, as you were saying before, if you don't like the book, don't read it. I don't pressure them.

There are some kids who-- they don't have books at home. There's no modelling or anything like that. And in class, there's not always a lot of time for silent reading or sustained silent reading, especially. So, I don't push them if they really don't want to. They'll sit there, and they'll turn the pages of non-fiction books. And I'm cool with that, too.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, obviously, if we're nagging at students to read and making it seem like a chore, they're not going to enjoy it anyway. So, having that really positive approach is fantastic.

So, for any listeners who might be new to the teacher librarian world or who aren't aware of book tastings, generally, it's a format-- and feel free to chime in if you do it slightly differently, but-- where you've got multiple tables set up in your library or another large space with a number of different books on each table. You can set it up any way you like. I used to set it up with 1 or 2 different genres per table, but you can do it just a few random books per table. It doesn't have to have any particular pattern to it.

And you give students a set time to-- I would give them 60 seconds, to choose what table they're going to sit at for a round. Then they had 60 seconds to read or have a look at the blurb and flick through and see if they wanted to commit to reading that book. And then if that book was still in their hand at the end of that 60 seconds, that was their tasting that they were doing, or their book date is what I would often call it.

And then they would have between 3 to 5 minutes, depending on the length of the period, to read that book. And then at the end of that 5-minute period, they would then mark down on a little sheet, 'I read this. Do I like it? Yes/no.' 'Do I want to borrow it in the future? Yes/no.' Very quick, very simple. And then move on to a next desk.

They couldn't sit at the same desk twice because the idea is that they have to keep moving and moving. And if it's a class where the students would kind of group into the same cohort of friend groups, I would make the rule that you can't sit with the same people every session so that friends wouldn't just follow each other around, so that they would actually make conscious choices of--

GINA KROHN: And they'd read, not chat.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. So, they'd have to think, 'OK, well, I'm going to go here next, even if my friend doesn't want to because I can't sit with them the next round anyway, so, it doesn't matter,' as much as I was maybe a little tough on that.

[laughter]

But yeah, that's the premise of a book tasting, or a-- speed dating with a book. Both refer to the same thing. They're very easy to set up.

And I'm sure your experiences are very similar, but they always resulted in a number of students actually thinking, 'Oh, this book isn't that bad.' And you'd have your highest borrowing rates after those classes. And sometimes you'd have kids picking up a pile of books so high that you're worried that they're going to drop them. So, very, very powerful, but very simple strategy to set up.

Do you have any go-to recommendations for students who don't see themselves as readers? And can you share a little of what they're about, or how you'd 'pitch' them to your students when they're standing between the bookshelves, trying to decide whether or not they actually want to read a book?

GINA KROHN: I often get the question, 'Miss, I really would like an adventure book.' And it's like, 'OK, why didn't you ask me about fantasy? I really could have helped you with that.'

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] That's your area of expertise.

[laughter]

GINA KROHN: I do what we all do, I suppose. You browse the shelves and have a look, and if you grab a few books and bring them over and we'll have a chat, provided the rest of the class is quiet enough. But because I read so many of them, I'm honest with them. And I say, 'Look, I haven't read everything, but these are the ones that I really liked.' and 'I loved the characters in this one,' or 'I loved the storyline. This one made me cry,' or whatever.

So, again, it's that personal recommendation, which doesn't have to be from me. That can be from a friend as well. And sometimes I'll grab a friend and say, 'Well, have you read this one? What did you think about it?' So, it's really just talking up the books, I think, and just saying that you enjoyed them.

Or some of them I'll pull out and I'll say, 'Oh, you might like this one because it's got this stuff, which you said that you liked. I didn't like it. I thought it was great until the end.' So, those sorts of things. But I don't ever say to them, 'Oh, it was fantastic, and you have to read it all because I loved it.' Because I think as we've said a couple of times, you just don't read everything because not everything is for you. Hmm.

JADE ARNOLD: I really like that approach of focusing on what it is that you liked, and I think those peer recommendations are one of the most powerful ways to influence people to read something else. I mean, if you look at social media and things like BookTok or Bookstagram, or even like YouTube videos that are book recommendations, there is that very social influence. And we like to share things with other people. So, if you can really emphasise to students, 'This is what I liked,' or even, 'This is what one of my other students in another class liked so I think you might like that too,' that's a really powerful way to share that and convince them to pick it up.

GINA KROHN: Yeah well, I do that, but I'll often-- and again, I think that most teacher librarians would do it as well-- is to get other kids because there's nothing like a peer recommendation.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Or a teacher recommendation, and again, I think teachers need to realise how powerful their recommendations are. But peer recommendations are also really good. And I love it when you sit down with the kids and you say, 'OK, well, who's read what?' And there's always a couple, there's never lots, but there's always a couple that are just busting to tell you what their books were about.

And other kids will say, 'Oh, yeah, I've read that one,' or 'I read that one.' 'Oh, yeah, I wouldn't mind reading that one.' So, it kind of gets a conversation going. It can get a bit out of hand at times, but I don't care if it gets them excited.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, look, I think if they're getting passionate about books and reading and sharing that with each other, sometimes you need to let it get a little out of hand. [laughs]

Everyone assumes that libraries are quiet spaces, but they rarely are, especially when people like us are in them. [laughs]

How do you go about developing your library's collection? What are you looking for when you're selecting books for your library?

GINA KROHN: Very basically, I'm trying to make sure that I have complete series, things like that. If there's a popular author, I have as many of their books as I can. As I said, I have a very tiny library, so I do get to the point.

And John, another very good librarian that I know, said that-- his thing was, 'I've given this author plenty of real estate, can't get any more. If kids want to keep reading their books, they either have to go and buy them or go to their local library,' which I think is a great suggestion. So, I'm at that point where some authors that I seriously can't fit any more in the library.

So, I look at what the kids want first. I always ask them. Sometimes-- they always come back with manga and whatever. And, I don't know, I got so many requests for Fortnite, but I don't go to some of those places, right?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I mean, book-- starting off with students' recommendations is fantastic and very powerful. But they also still have to meet your school's collection development policy and be appropriate, in your case, for a primary school library. So, it's great that they can ask. We can't always meet their needs, though. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: No, that's right. But I can always recommend the local library. So, that's a really nice thing to share with them. And the fact that it's free, because I think a lot of them think, 'Oh, we have to pay all this money.'

But what I'm looking for in the books, I suppose, again, it depends on which stage I'm shopping for because you want accessibility of the text. You want great illustrations. I love the covers. And I'd actually like to do a unit around the covers of books because I find it really interesting that there are some-- don't know how they're created, let's be honest-- but they're really engaging. And then others that have a good story, and the covers, they just don't grab me.

And I feel really bad about that because if I'm shopping online-- because where I live there's no bookshops nearby, so I do a lot of my shopping online. Yeah, I probably wouldn't look at them because they don't look appealing. And so, I don't think the kids will grab them as well.

And I think we see that, on our shelves, you can see books where the kids will go again and again and again. And it's not just the author. It is the whole parcel. And there are some great books, including older ones-- older sort of classics, I suppose-- but they're just-- yeah. The pictures just make them look like, 'Oh, my dad would have read that. I'm not going to borrow that.'

JADE ARNOLD: But there is a reason why there is an art for creating good cover art is we are very visual creatures. And we will make that snap judgement based on a cover. And a lot of the time, that's our first impression. There's so much competing for our attention.

I know that publishers are always so focused on not just having a really good story to give to readers but to sell that story really well with the right type of cover art. And I think, not always, but I think a good cover is a really good way or a really good indicator of success in some areas.

It shouldn't always be, but when I was looking for purchasing stuff, especially if there's multiple editions, I would always try and buy-- as long as it wasn't more expensive-- try and buy the edition cover that was a nicer cover or maybe a more updated one. So, that exactly as you were saying, it's more appealing to students. They're more likely to pick it up.

It doesn't necessarily look like it's been sitting on the shelves for 50 years or passed down by their grandmother or something like that. Even though books like that can be absolutely so important to us and fantastic stories, sometimes we've got to also sell it to kids. And it has to be attractive and appealing. So, sometimes we do have to judge the book by its cover.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, I agree, and I think kids like looking at the different covers. I love the puzzled look on their faces when they get the same book with different-- 'It's a different book.' 'No, it's the same book.' You know--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and I think that's where something like, if you do have some ugly book covers in your library, doing something like a blind date with a book where you wrap them up, that shortcuts that completely because then they don't know what the book is. And there's a lot of benefit to doing something like that as well.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, I used to do that on Library Lovers' Day.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

GINA KROHN: It just took so--

JADE ARNOLD: It is very time consuming.

GINA KROHN: New librarians-- don't try it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, unless you're in a-- I don't know. I've always been in a high school setting, so I've had an army of student librarians to help me. And with students, it is much more achievable. If you're in a primary library and you don't have as many older students to help you, it would be very, very hard to do.

GINA KROHN: I have tried it with the kids, actually, and it's not too bad, but sometimes they think that they have to write a little blurb. Obviously, they're not allowed to put the title on or anything like that. They get the barcode wrong. So, that's a bit of a killer--

[laughter]

--because then I have to open it to have a look.

But I just bought a stack of those brown paper bags, but then they want to borrow the one that they've just wrapped up. And it's--

[laughter]

But that's not the point.

JADE ARNOLD: I mean, I guess you're still achieving the same thing, but yeah, no. That's a lot of work to put in.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, that's right. I'm going to take this one. Yeah, OK.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Yeah, getting the barcode right for that is very important. Otherwise, it goes pear shaped. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Mm, very quickly. Mm.

JADE ARNOLD: What are some of the most popular books in your library?

GINA KROHN: Well, I run the reports at the end of each year to show the parents and as part of my report to the principal. And I think for the last couple of years, 'Dog Man' has been one of the most borrowed books. And I was a little bit surprised, but Meredith Costain's books, 'Ella' and 'Olivia', seem to be really popular as well.

'Dog Man' doesn't surprise me because I do see them coming through all the time. And I guess the other one did surprise me a little bit because even though they're obviously-- the girls might borrow them 4 or 5 at a time-- they didn't seem to dominate, but they did. 'Peppa Pig'--

[laughter]

'Peppa Pig' is big.

I don't have a lot of 'Bluey'. I'm building that collection. But yes, that's very popular. 'WeirDo', I think, is reasonably popular, and the kids do seem to go for series as well. They don't necessarily go for things that they've seen on TV, which I think is interesting because it's-- all power to TV shows. But obviously, I've got the T-shirt. 'The book was better.' And I generally believe that. I'm in 2 minds about 'Lord of the Rings', though, let me just say.

JADE ARNOLD: We could make a separate podcast episode just on that, but we won't today.

[laughter]

GINA KROHN: No, another time. Yeah, so those are the most popular. I don't have a lot of borrowing with teachers. Generally, there's only a couple of teachers that borrow quite a bit to read to their kids, which is disappointing, but I'll work on that this year as well. I suggested 'Scar Town' as a book 2 years ago, I think, to one class teacher. And the kids have just maxed out on Tristan Bancks. I really like his stuff.

One of the things is, too, that the books that are most popular sometimes are the things that, either, I've been talking about, or if you have an author visit, which is just so exciting for the kids, then that shoots your book stats out as well. We had Deb Abela last year, and everybody wanted 'Grimsdon' and 'The Kindness Project' and those-- her books. They were great, so that was really good.

We had Kate Foster by Zoom, and she was really-- she was great. She was lovely to talk to, answered any of the questions from the kids. And so, her books were-- just you couldn't keep them on the shelves, either. So, if you got low-- and they're Australian authors, obviously. If you've got low borrowing rates, an author visit, or an author talk is a really great way to go too because the kids just can't believe they're real people.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Which I think is kind of funny.

JADE ARNOLD: I think I was talking to Ashleigh Barton in a previous episode, and she was saying that's-- that's one of the-- the most rewarding things for her as an author, to actually go into schools and to visit them and get them really excited about that. And I think in an earlier podcast, also, with Yvette Poshoglian-- I think that was episode 1-- where she was talking about that connection between coming into a school library and then having kids read those books, which, yeah, you're absolutely correct.

It's one of those things where students, I think, forget that authors-- or don't realise that authors are real people and that there is a person behind the creation of this book. And so as soon as they've made that connection, it then sparks a real interest in what they have to say.

GINA KROHN: And a stampede.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah! [laughs] You'd better have multiple copies or a good reservation system. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Which just goes to show, I think, too, that all this talk about 'kids don't want to read anymore', it's just not true. They just-- I think they need to be reshown how exciting books are because all their thinking is done for them with games and stuff. There's strategy. And I'm not a fan of online gaming, I guess. But I can see that there is certainly some value in that in lots of different ways.

But I don't think that there's any comparison to really being able to-- all the benefits that books bring you, all the benefits from tolerance to walking in somebody else's shoes. So, different perspectives from-- yeah, just opening yourself.

JADE ARNOLD: Developing empathy and--

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, there's so much to be gained from a book. And I think it's often a case of there being so much competing for students' demands, for their attention, for their time-- sport, extracurricular activities, all their social media, games-- all of those types of things do take up a lot of time and a lot of energy. And they're often things that either parents will take them to or they're things that have a lot of social capital with their friendship groups.

So, you do need to remind them that, actually, this is an option as well, and it is very entertaining. And you can develop social capital through this. You can develop really good friendships through the books that you share. But we-- kind of comes down to us, I guess, as teacher librarians, to remind them of that and to keep that in the front of their mind because there's just so much competing for their attention.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, and I think you can see that, too. I know at my school, one of the issues that we have, I believe, anyway, is reading resilience. I find that if it doesn't happen in the first 3 lines, 'I'm bored.' But you just need to get them to stick with it.

JADE ARNOLD: I like that.

GINA KROHN: And there's so many other things around them that do grab their attention. I find-- it takes them a long time to settle. If I say, 'We're going to be quiet reading,' it can take them 20 minutes because they're just so used to buzzing everywhere and being engaged, whether they like what they have to be doing or not. But it just feels a little bit foreign, I think, to them to sit down quietly and to get into their heads through a book.

JADE ARNOLD: I really liked that phrasing of reading resilience. I would call it reading stamina, that-- similar kind of thing. You've got to-- you wouldn't be able to expect to run a marathon if you just chucked on your joggers and went for a run around the block. You need to build up to that. It's a muscle that you have to develop.

GINA KROHN: You mean that's more-- that's a marathon?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: The running around the block, was it?

JADE ARNOLD: I feel like running around the block is a marathon, personally. I know it's not, but it's much more than just being able to dive straight into it. And it takes time, and it takes practice, and it takes resilience. So, maybe I'll steal that. Maybe I'll stop calling it reading stamina and start calling it reading resilience.

GINA KROHN: It's not original, but you're welcome.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you.

GINA KROHN: Because I think that's exactly what it is. And that's what kids need to understand, that there is benefit in just sitting down quietly, even if they're not engaging with the text so much. Yeah, I think they just need a little bit of space in their heads.

JADE ARNOLD: In your opinion, what are some of the 'must have' titles in a primary school collection, and can you tell us a bit about them?

GINA KROHN: I think, again, it depends on which stage you're buying for. So, obviously, with Kindy, I mean, I love Pamela Allen's books, Bob Graham's books, Alison Lester-- so many great books. And they're older, established authors, too.

There's lots of-- Heidi McKinnon, I think she's great. Philip Bunting's books, I think, are really cool. I do like Jon Klassen's 'The Rock from the Sky'. And I don't exclusively push Australian authors, I suppose, but I do try to encourage my kids to take advantage of the great talent that we've got here.

Obviously, 'Peppa Pig' is not Australian, but 'Bluey' is. I saw something yesterday, I think it was, from SBS saying that Americans had watched 55 billion minutes of 'Bluey' or something in the last year, and I was like, 'yes'.

JADE ARNOLD: That's awesome.

GINA KROHN: It is. Not all at once, I suspect.

JADE ARNOLD: But still. It's good to see our culture is being exported to the US instead of the other way around.

GINA KROHN: Even if it is a cattle dog, yeah. For Year 1 and Year 2-- I think I underestimated my Year 2's for a long time, so I am more interested in getting chapter books for them now. So, obviously, your progressions with Sally Rippin's 'School of Monsters' is fantastic for Kindy and moving into Year 1. 'Billie B Brown' and 'Hey Jack!' Year 2, 'Tashi'. They love 'Tashi' still. Again, an older book, but they're sort of the go-tos that my kids would go to.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it always surprises me. That's always a book that features on the most read book list, because I would have assumed-- it's relatively old. I wouldn't have thought that it's still being read, but year after year I am wrong.

GINA KROHN: But it's like this.

JADE ARNOLD: I am wrong. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah, they-- I don't know. I think quirky little characters, they like them. Yeah, so 3 and 4, well, I wouldn't necessarily say must have but popular, obviously. The kids like all the Anh Do books, though, I must say, they're getting a bit tired of how some of them keep going on and on and on. 'When is this going to finish, Miss?' 'I don't know.'

But my favourite stage to buy for, I suppose, because that's where they really get into the fantasy, is Stage 3. And I think there's loads of books. I mean, RA Spratt's 'Friday Barnes'. There's the Springer books, the murder mysteries, Jack Heath, how can you go past his books? They're amazing-- and Tristan Bancks.

I'm not a fan of the quirky, funny ones like 'Diary of a Wimpy Kid' and things like that. But if you want your kids to read, buy those ones as well. And I think that's-- the tricky thing is to think, 'I'll buy these popular ones, but I want to expand their repertoire. And I want them to extend a bit.'

And if they don't, they don't. And it's kind of their loss, I suppose. I will give them every opportunity. But I think also having a really good stock of non-fiction books as well. So, the National Geographic for kids books, I think they're fantastic. And they're really highly borrowed by Kinder and Year 1, you know, the little ones at my school.

But there's some beautiful non-fiction books. I just wish they wouldn't make them so tall. They don't fit on the shelves. That's really awkward.

JADE ARNOLD: They are tricky to fit on sometimes.

GINA KROHN: Yes, publishers, listen.

JADE ARNOLD: Publishers need to think about that.

GINA KROHN: No, no. And I don't know where they fit because they don't fit in school bags and library bags, either.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and they're very heavy for small children to be carting around.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, that's right. I have a lot of 'not for borrowing' stickers.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, just make them a few centimetres smaller.

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: That'd be great. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I think some really good non-fiction books, and there are a lot out there now. So, you can get them in every library, I think, to have a really good spread. But again, it comes back to your kids as well because some kids might not like-- if you're in a girls-only school or a boys-only school, there's lots of titles that you're not going to have, yeah. So, I think you have to be across a whole range of the publishing literature, which, again, takes time.

JADE ARNOLD: And I guess that's one of those things that when people think of 'what does teacher librarianship involve?' it involves a very vast skill set that you hone over a period of time. It's not just a simple, 'Yep, that book looks good. I'll buy that.'

GINA KROHN: I do that occasionally, and sometimes it's spot on. And sometimes, it's never borrowed. I've had a couple of those, and it's like, 'Oh, I'm just going to weed that one, then, pretend it never happened.'

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Now, I mentioned earlier that you are the founder of the Primary Libraries: Creative Collaboration, often referred to as the PLCC. Can you tell us a little bit about this?

GINA KROHN: OK, so it started in 2018, and it was mainly-- I got my job at my school in 2016. It was my first permanent position, and I had just finished the master's degree. And I really didn't feel like the degree equipped me to teach library.

It taught me how to run a library, and it gave-- it was good in lots and lots of ways. But the thing that really would have helped me was-- I took it. It was an optional course. So, what do they call them?

JADE ARNOLD: The electives.

GINA KROHN: The elective, yeah, on children's literature. So, I really didn't feel like I knew what I was doing. And people say, 'Oh, that's all right. You'll pick it up. You'll get used to it.' And I thought, 'No, I'm going to die if I don't find out soon.'

So, I foolishly organised a conference. And the idea was to get people to come in-- and other teacher librarians, not industry people-- to come in and to talk about what they did in their own libraries and what worked. And you would break off into work groups and come up with resources that you could use the next day when you went back to school.

And it was supposed to be a one-off, hence the date on the email address. But it went on, so people were really happy with it. So, we did-- I think I did 4 altogether. I did some-- I just got accreditation for it through NESA and COVID came. So, that one got cancelled. But then I did-- the following year, did online.

And the whole idea behind it is to share resources at no cost, because a lot of us don't have the budget to do that sort of thing, but everybody creates amazing resources. Some of them aren't so great. Some of mine are really dodgy, but somebody can take it and improve it or change it.

JADE ARNOLD: A springboard and saving them from reinventing the wheel.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, because we do that in every library around the state, around the country, for those lucky enough to have librarians. And yeah, I just thought-- I didn't want to-- I don't want to have to go and buy a book for $50 that's going to have some library lessons in it that I might use for a couple of years, and then they're gone.

So, the idea of the PLCC site is that with your principal's permission, you share your programs. And I keep them up there, and people can download them and use them as they want to. And we created a scope and sequence.

I was told that that was a really bad thing to do, but the whole point of that was to be a flexible scope and sequence because as we know, we didn't have one in library. And we were supposed to cover all these different outcomes. So, yeah, it was just there like a big help desk, I suppose, is really what it was like.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and it's just grown into this massive thing. You can spend hours on that website. I know I did often.

GINA KROHN: Did you?

JADE ARNOLD: As a teacher librarian, absolutely. Even though, obviously, in a high school setting, a lot of the scope and sequences don't necessarily apply to our context or different stages for our stages. But there's also a treasure trove of ideas for running the PRC, doing--

GINA KROHN: Book tastings.

JADE ARNOLD: Book tastings, all these different activities-- displays. Like I could sit here and list off different things for 5 minutes.

GINA KROHN: Feel free.

JADE ARNOLD: I'm not going to. I'm not going to. I'm going to say, if you're a TL starting out, especially if you're a primary teacher librarian, definitely visit the site. There are so many wonderful resources there to make you feel a little less overwhelmed. And it's a testament, I think, to the teacher librarian community, how collegial we are and how committed to sharing that, and then also to all your hard work to put it together and maintain that massive website.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, it's supposed to be a one-stop shop. So, if people find it helpful, that's good because I usually spend Saturdays fiddling and not doing housework.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful.

GINA KROHN: Finding stuff.

JADE ARNOLD: And then another wonderful initiative that you've spearheaded is the Backpack Project. What inspired you to start this project, and what is it?

GINA KROHN: OK. Well, what inspired me was a few years ago, pre-COVID, I was doing some author studies. And I'd borrowed from the CBCA Travelling Suitcases, and I went looking for them, and I couldn't find them. And I'd send off email after email and contacted people who I thought would know where they were, and nobody seemed to know.

Nobody still seems to know where they are, to be honest. They've disappeared. And at my last conference for the PLCC, I had Tristan Bancks there. And I just said, 'Hey, Tristan,' now that we're besties, would he be interested if I put a backpack together, and we put some engagement materials?

And he said, 'Yes.' And after that conference, he had a Room to Read event in Balmain. So, I went off to the Room to Read event with him, and Deb Abela was there. I said, 'Hey, Deb.' And Pip Harry was there.

JADE ARNOLD: 'Hey, Pip.' [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah, that's right. Sarah Davis was there. So, I actually got 5. I can't remember who the other one was. And then Jacqui Harvey was having one of her high teas. So, I drove from where I lived down in Wollongong up to Lane Cove, I think, and hijacked her. And she went, 'Oh yeah, that'd be great.'

And it just started from there. So, the whole point is that it gives kids lots of different access points to stories. So, obviously, the backpacks have the author's books in there. And I'm so grateful to all the publishers that provide these for free, because this is an unfunded project. So, yes, donations are welcome.

So, we have the books, and it's really great when you have a range of picture books through to chapter books because it can be used for a whole lot of different stages. There are games in there. There's puzzles. There's-- I have a lot of puppets, so I went a bit crazy with puppets.

So, I've got a lot of puppets but engagement materials for the kids to use in play around the books. And I've asked the authors-- most of them have been really fantastic-- to give me lots of information about themselves, which isn't necessarily on their website. So, that's something else that can be a focus of a lesson but also a challenge.

So, this is a point of differentiation from the CBCA because they had the teacher notes and those sorts of things as well. But the challenges the authors have come up with, some of them are great, and some of them said, 'I don't know what to do. What do you think we should do?'

But the kids can do the challenges, and it doesn't matter if they do, or they don't. When you have a backpack, that's not really important. But I did want them to-- the authors to give some feedback if the kids did challenges. And I do get emails from the authors saying, 'Oh, I got feedback from this primary school, and it was really cool.'

And at the end of the year, I went through and emailed quite a few of the authors and said, 'Well, your backpack's been borrowed.' Tristan Bancks's backpack was actually booked 22 times, so he's just come through. We're putting a second one together, and I've got to post it out this weekend.

Sami Bayly donated all her books. She was amazing, but it was booked so many times that we have 2 backpacks for her as well. Deb Abela, obviously, really, really popular, but it's also-- there's quite a few authors that people wouldn't know. And illustrators, sorry, it's not just-- it's creators.

So, Vaughan Duck, who's an illustrator based in South Australia, so, he hasn't written any books. But he's illustrated quite a few. Frances-- sorry, Frances, I've forgotten your last name. But she's got lots of books that are like ABCs and 123s, and they're great for Kindys and things like that. But she's not a well-known name.

Yeah, there's lots of authors, I think, that people would recognise their names. You were talking about Ashleigh Barton. She's-- yeah, we've got her. I think there's 47 now, 48.

JADE ARNOLD: That's phenomenal.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, but I like it because I just like the kids-- I know from my kids at my school that they get excited opening it up and having a look and seeing what's in there. And I have been able to use the books, and I love it when they're just sitting there listening to it.

You know how kids look when-- they look like they're not thinking about anything, but you know they're so totally in the story. And that's really good. So, yeah, it's just an engagement thing. So, teacher librarians can use it how they like. It doesn't cost them anything to book. The cost is in sending it on--

JADE ARNOLD: Just the postage.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, and replacing anything that goes missing because sometimes children just really like that toy.

JADE ARNOLD: And it goes home with them.

GINA KROHN: Yes.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Accidentally, hopefully.

GINA KROHN: Hmm, yeah, so it's a-- I'm really proud of it, I suppose. But it does have an end life. So, I'm planning on having it run until the end of 2028.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. It's such a fantastic initiative. I don't if we should plug it because it sounds like it's so busy already. But if you're interested in booking a backpack, that's on the PLCC website as well, isn't it?

GINA KROHN: Yes, it's got its own tab-- Backpack Project. Just check the availability. There is a spreadsheet there, and make sure that the backpack that you want is actually available. And each creator has their own backpack page, so you can actually see what's-- the physical items in there.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, awesome. Final question for today-- what are you currently reading now, or what are you looking forward to reading next?

GINA KROHN: I've got a whole stack of Premier's Reading Challenge books that are waiting to be read.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

GINA KROHN: I actually just finished Kristin Darell's zoo series, so I did enjoy those. And yeah, they don't take too long to read as an adult. So, that's why I like going through those because then I can recommend them to the kids.

But yeah, over Christmas, I didn't really read too much, but I'm not picking up anything at the moment. I can picture some books that kids have told me to read. A lot of Nova Weetman's books the kids really like. I know I want to read Maryam Master's second book. I haven't read that one yet. And I think I'll just watch 'Bluey' rather than read it.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Gina. I have no doubt our teacher librarian listeners will have been inspired by your enthusiasm and your deep knowledge and will hopefully give some of your strategies a try in their own libraries. And I also hope they visit the PLCC website and consider signing up for the Backpack Project. Both of those are such fantastic ways to support developing a love of reading in our students and supporting the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. So, thank you for joining us.

GINA KROHN: My absolute pleasure.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.