Audio transcript

Between the bookshelves – 8. Lisa Fuller

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JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

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You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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Welcome to episode 8 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by award-winning author Lisa Fuller, a Wuilli Wuilli woman from Eidsvold, Queensland, who's joining us today from Ngunnawal lands in Canberra. Lisa is an academic, writer, editor, literary agent, and the author of 'Big, Big Love', a picture book illustrated by Samantha Campbell, her young adult title 'Ghost Bird' and her latest middle grade release, 'Washpool'.

Lisa-- thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

LISA FULLER: Um-- I have not had enough coffee but thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to meet you.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I hope there is caffeine shortly in your future after this interview. Before we begin, I thought it would be nice to play a little game of this or that. So, basically, I'll give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can either defend your options if you feel, or you can just let your answer stand on its own. Are you ready?

LISA FULLER: Go for it.

JADE ARNOLD: Alright. Fiction or non-fiction?

LISA FULLER: Fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Physical book or ebook?

LISA FULLER: Physical.

JADE ARNOLD: Ebook or audiobook?

LISA FULLER: Non-fiction for audio and fiction for ebook.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, interesting. I like that distinguishing feature there. Series or standalone books?

LISA FULLER: Everything. Just give me it all. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: I love that. I very much am the same. Fantasy or adventure?

LISA FULLER: Oh, can I have both?

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Of course. I mean, you did write a fantasy adventure novel, so I guess that makes sense.

LISA FULLER: Yeah, it kind of is.

JADE ARNOLD: That's why I asked you. I thought that would be tricky for you. [laughs] And last but not least, mystery or comedy?

LISA FULLER: Ooh. Mystery, I have to say. I love a good laugh, but nothing like the tingles when you're reading.

JADE ARNOLD: And gives you-- that's the real page turners, I find, where you really want to know what on earth is going on and you have to really commit. Awesome. Well, thank you for playing that with me. That was a little bit of fun.

Onto the 'Between the bookshelves' stuff. So, Lisa, one of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with books or stories that they're going to fall in love with. And so, keeping that in mind, we like to do this little 'between the bookshelves' pitch, which is essentially an elevator pitch for your book titles.

So, I want you to imagine that there is a student that's standing between the bookshelves in their school or their local library, or maybe in their local bookshop. And they're standing in the F section, in the children's fiction section, and they see your titles there on the shelves. And you have to make the decision to try and convince them, essentially, to take your book home.

So, with that in mind, could you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'Washpool', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

LISA FULLER: Ooh, this is hard. I'm much better at spruiking other people's books. So, 'Washpool' is about sisters Cienna and Bella. Cienna is very confident, popular and doesn't mind a bit of confrontation, whereas Bella is very reserved and quiet, and she's being bullied at school. And Cienna cannot understand how Bella is not willing to fight back in a confrontational way.

The girls both love going to Washpool, a local swimming hole, and they get sucked through a portal into another world full of pink skies and creatures known and unknown, including an amazing dragon who oversees this area of land they have to travel to, to find their way home. And along the way, they get pulled apart and end up with warring factions. They have to work together to find out who stole the lady dragon's egg before they can even think about how they're going to actually get home.

'Washpool' is kind of about accepting each other's differences and understanding that there are different ways of operating in a sometimes judgemental world. It's also just about having a lot of fun travelling to another planet-- not another planet, another world that's built on pure imagination, and the most wild and funky things you can imagine happen.

JADE ARNOLD: It definitely is a fun and rollicking fantasy adventure. With that in mind, what type of readers do you think 'Washpool' would appeal to?

LISA FULLER: Ooh, I hope as many people as possible. No. [laughs] I think middle grade lovers of fantasy. But I've also had really good responses from the adults who've read it and been reading it with their middle graders, because I think there's a lot in there because of who I am and because of how the book came about. It was for my entire family in a lot of ways. So, there's some interesting layering.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing that I noticed was that it's a fantasy book that's not overwhelming for someone who's new to the genre of fantasy. I think you could see a lot of people, a lot of readers who love those classic fantasy adventures like 'Percy Jackson' really enjoying this book.

But also, for readers who think that a giant series of books is way too much, and they want a little bit more variety, or they're just not a series reader. And maybe they've never read a fantasy book before. I think that real adventure side of things really comes through. So, definitely not just pigeonholed into fantasy, I would say.

Now you kind of hinted at that when we were discussing how this book came about just then, but I believe this book came from a real personal connection with your nieces in particular. Can you tell us a little bit more about the origin story of writing 'Washpool'?

LISA FULLER: Yeah. So, it would have been about 6 or 8 years ago now. My 2 eldest nieces with my sister, they were starting their literacy journey, and I was missing everyone like crazy. And so, I just wrote them the first chapter of what I was calling their book. And they're the main characters.

And their names are Cienna and Bella. And to get the next chapter of their book, they had to write me back with a letter and drawings. And so, it became this huge letter writing exchange. And it also became a family thing, because my sister would read the chapter out to everyone at the breakfast table before school.

And I'd get immediate feedback from her, where she's like, 'Oh, you know, that was really funny. They laughed their guts out.' 'Don't do that one again, though, sis. That was gammon.' You know-- [laughs] And then the letters-- I've still got them in a display folder in my bookshelf, where the girls were kind of guessing what was going to happen.

And then my goal was to not give them what they wanted, to surprise them as much as I could. And it became this epic family exchange and so much fun. And getting edited and changing it, there were parts of it that were heartbreaking, because I had to remove all the family in-jokes and all the family history, the things that I was trying to-- I'm always trying to-- I think it's the Aboriginal culture.

You know, it's always fun and entertaining, but there's always something going on underneath if you're paying attention. So, there's little hints of things that I wanted to say to the girls about our history, and some of-- a lot of that had to come out.

Then I had to-- instead of them being my nieces Cienna and Bella, I had to turn them into characters. And that was really hard because obviously, I love my nieces, and this can't be them, because it has to be a character.

JADE ARNOLD: And it needs to take a life on its own.

LISA FULLER: It really does.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh my gosh, what a sweet and absolutely wholesome way to write a book. I have spoken to so many authors about how ideas came about for their books, and I don't think I've ever encountered anything like this. And what a great litmus test also for your book, having your nieces giving you on-the-spot feedback, and your sister as well.

Oh, that would have been so special. And I can't imagine what it would be like to be the real Cienna and Bella who know that this book now exists because of those letters between you and them. That's so special. I hope they were amongst your first readers when it was actually released.

LISA FULLER: Bella was insisting she was going out and buying her copy from a bookshop, even though I'm like, 'Babe, you get a free copy,--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I can get you one.

LISA FULLER: --there's no question.'

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Oh, that's so lovely though.

LISA FULLER: Yeah, it is. But they're 16 and 18, so, there was a point where they lost interest, which broke my heart. But then I got their permission to finish the whole book and turn them into characters and submit it for publication. So, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: And I hope one day, they'll have their own kids or their own nieces and nephews to read it to themselves. And they can say that 'this is me, this is written by my auntie'. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: Well, and then it sort of became another thing where my younger niblings from different family got fully involved. And there-- the whole thing is in the author's notes. This thing was years of family engagement, and love, and laughter, and a little bit of heartbreak and-- yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. It's so beautiful and, ah gosh, so special. And I think looking back on it, because I obviously didn't know that at the time that I was reading it, it just adds so much meaning into that story. And just-- it gave me the warm and fuzzies, and I'm not even involved in it in any way, shape or form.

So, yeah. It's so lovely and so interesting. The world that the sisters slip into is this strange parallel to our own world. You've got purple grass, pink sky, orange water and all these strange creatures. Some of them we may have heard of. Some of them are completely new to us. Was there a particular inspiration behind this world that they slip into?

LISA FULLER: The biggest inspiration was the 2 factions at the heart of the story: the Merpeople and the Fire Birds. At the time when I was writing it originally, Bella was absolutely obsessed with mermaids, and Cienna had a real thing for phoenixes.

Now, mermaids generally are-- even though there are some cultures, like Aboriginal cultures, who have mermaids, and they believe in mermaids, there is a fictionalised version that I can use without appropriating anyone's stories. But I wasn't comfortable appropriating-- well, it would have felt like appropriating to me using phoenixes.

So, I used that as inspiration for the Fire Birds. And there's things in there. Like, there's the dragons. I mean, dragons are so cool. And I was very aware of not appropriating other people's-- doing my best to not appropriate other people's cultural beings and creatures.

And the vast majority of it, I realised afterwards, is actually very much based in our worldview that everything is alive. The trees, the rocks, the water, the earth, the sky. It's all alive and has spirit.

And so, it's-- I think that's reflected in it. But there's also the fact that I'm a huge fantasy lover. So, there are centaurs as well, and fun things like that.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, it's real meshing of some of those real traditional fantasy elements. And, as you were saying, that real kind of connection to Country where, like when the girls are putting their hand through the grass, it reacts and undulates as if it's aware of their presence and all these other things.

It's so lovely. I love that so much. There's also this real contrast between the 2 sisters, Bella, who's this really shy, introverted character, as you mentioned, and Cienna, who's headstrong and is constantly worried about her sister not standing up for herself.

Did you intentionally set out to explore that sibling dynamic, or did it kind of just evolve naturally as you wrote?

LISA FULLER: Part of it is based in Cienna and Bella. They're very different people. They actually reflect me and their mother. We're very-- Mum has always called us chalk and cheese, and Cienna and Bella are very like chalk and cheese as well.

So, it's based on that element. But it's me playing around to have a bit more tension and a bit more-- especially that opening section. That didn't exist, where the girls are at school, until I started to get edited with black&write! and I had to start thinking about how to introduce these themes sooner so that the reader can go on the journey, with the girls.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I don't want to give too much away, but I love this point of realisation at the end of the book that Cienna comes to, that there's more than one way to solve a problem. And her way obviously works for her. But Bella does have her own ways of dealing with things, and maybe she needed a little bit of, I guess, belief in herself that it could work out.

But the way that she solves her problems at the end, without giving too many spoilers away, is just that real lovely affirmation that 2 people can be completely different, chalk and cheese, as you say. But how they'll approach life and how they'll approach their problems can be really unique but can still have a great resolution at the end. And I think that was a really lovely message to include for your readers.

LISA FULLER: Well, I hope it's a message the girls got, too.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] I hope so. There's also a lot of fantastical elements in the book. We're talking about Fire Birds and Merpeople and Lady Dragon, who's the keeper of the land. But as you've hinted at, Bella and Cienna have this constant tie to their own Country as they're guided by advice through their mother and their grandmother.

Throughout their adventure, they're constantly referring back to wisdom that's been shared with them to survive, and make it out, and figure out what to do next. How did you balance creating this rich, fantastical world while still keeping that strong connection to Country and to culture at the heart of the story?

LISA FULLER: So, for me, I actually don't see it as a connection to Country. I had to get them off Country as fast as possible, which is why they had to go through a portal to another world. Because if I have them on Country, then there's all sorts of permissions and protocols.

And there's all sorts of cultural mores and respect I need to be paying, that-- it was very much in 'Ghost Bird'. And I was actually editing 'Ghost Bird' while I was finishing writing this. This was my fun escape from the seriousness of getting approval from my aunties, and talking to my mum, and checking, checking, checking.

So, this, to me, isn't about connection to Country. It's actually about just having a lot of fun with my nieces. But also, I can definitely see, reading it back and seeing that because of who I am, my cultural view, my world view is-- and the world view of the girls, which is very much about speaking to my nieces, and their brothers and sisters, and their cousins, that it's going to bleed through. It is what it is.

I think I liked what my partner said the most. He said, 'It's a fantasy with Black flavour.' I'm like, 'Yeah, let's take that.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. That's such a good way of describing it. I think that's a really good thing for a lot of our listeners to know, is that there's often so much work that has to go into telling a story that is culturally safe and respectful, and that will often influence, I would assume, a writer's decision to do certain things. And that's something that I wasn't aware of until just now.

So, thank you so much for sharing that with me. That's so interesting to know.

Before we move on to your next book, let's come back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say that young reader who was standing between the bookshelves has now devoured 'Washpool', and they absolutely adored it. And they want to find their next book that will scratch the same itch, or maybe a similar itch. What books would you recommend they try next?

LISA FULLER: Oh. So, I had a whole list written down for you, and I've left the list in my office. But the most recent one I can think of is probably 'Brightest Wild' by Tania Crampton-Larking. There's all sorts out there.

Actually, what I generally do is if I'm looking for new books, I go to the Readings website and I literally just google First Nations, middle grade. First Nations, young adult. And the list-- I can't keep up anymore.

Once upon a time, I could buy every single Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander writer and I could read their books, and I no longer can, which is an amazing, amazing problem to be having. I'm so excited for it. But I've got things like 'Nerra' and the 'Wylah' series, and it's all sitting on my to-be-read pile. But I've got a 2-year-old. And I've just finished my PhD. And I've started a new job. So, I'm excited to read, but--

JADE ARNOLD: Of course, yeah. You've got a bit on your plate. But no, I think 'Nerra: Deep Time Traveller' and 'Wylah' are both fantastic recommendations.

Both of those are on the PRC book list. And all the books that Lisa mentions in this and that I mention also will be available in the show notes as well to download, and we'll indicate which of those books are on the PRC book list for our listeners so, you don't have to go googling yourself.

But yeah, there's been that definite shift in publishing where-- you're right. I remember probably 7, 8 years ago trying to find books by Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander authors was such a mission. And really, you could only find it from, say, Magabala Books, or very few other titles.

And it's so lovely to see. There's definitely still so far, much further the publishing industry needs to come to ensure that there is better representation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander authors in our children and young adults, and even adult fiction. But it's good to see that there is progress being made in that area. And so yeah, it's such a good problem to be like, 'Oh, how do I keep track of all the new authors in this area?' [laughs]

Thank you so much for those recommendations, Lisa. Those all sound great. I'd like to talk now about your young adult title, 'Ghost Bird', which features on the 9Plus book list. Let's assume that the reader that's standing between the bookshelves now is a teenager, and they're looking for their next read. They've come across your book 'Ghost Bird' between the shelves. How would you help them make the decision to take that book home?

LISA FULLER: So, twin sisters Tace and Laney are in their last year of high school. Tace is desperate to finish school and get out of their small town in country Queensland and Laney is fighting against the education system and wants to stay and fight for her mob and community and culture.

And then Laney is also doing some not so nice, naughty things, let's just say, some things she shouldn't be doing. And she sneaks out one night, and she doesn't come home. And Tace starts having these really awful dreams about what's happening to her sister.

And the police aren't interested. She's just another Aboriginal girl gone missing. Nobody cares. This is all set in the '90s as well, '90s rural Queensland. And Tace has to break all kinds of social community, family taboos, our cultural taboos, to find out what happens to her sister. It's about figuring out who you are, but also respecting and understanding what's come before, but when you need to push to find out who you are.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I love that description. What type of reader do you think would enjoy 'Ghost Bird' or what type of reader did you write it for?

LISA FULLER: Oh, both are really hard questions. I think a lot of the times I struggle to classify my work. Some people have called it mystery, thriller. Some people call it horror. Other people say it's not scary at all.

I think if you like the tingles, if you get a bit spooked at night, I think you'll enjoy this. I think if you like the scary things that you may not necessarily see, I think it'll mess with you a bit. It's good fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. I think you're definitely on the money there with readers who just want to be a little bit spooked. And when I was reading this, I remember it being a windy night and, like, doors opening and closing on their own, and freaking out. And being like, 'Oh, it's just a book. It's just a book. It's just a book!' [laughing]

LISA FULLER: Right. I can't listen to the audiobook at night. It terrifies me.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I can see how that would happen. So, yeah, definitely. If you've got a reader out there who wants something to just make them a little bit spooked, or to question every other sound they hear, great recommendation for it.

Now, you were kind of touching on this a bit, then, where people really struggle to classify 'Ghost Bird' in terms of what genre it fits in, and I would say it's one of those books that doesn't really neatly fit into a genre.

And there's been a lot of people who mistakenly assume, or assign it to speculative fiction, or magical realism, or kind of this fantasy-adjacent genre. But it's actually, as you were saying earlier, grounded in your own cultural and spiritual beliefs. So, could you tell us a bit more about the inspiration for writing a story infused with your own beliefs, and what that process was like for you?

LISA FULLER: When I started writing it, this was all part of my master's in creative writing, and I had this idea in my head that I was not going to include any of our spiritual beliefs because I have been so actively mocked by other people just generally when I express what my spiritual beliefs are.

And so, I was just like, 'I'm not gonna--' there's a history in this country of Aboriginal spiritual beliefs being stolen and used in inappropriate ways without understanding the protocols and permissions process, and how many of us work as communities. And so, I was very scared about opening any doors that would allow people to steal our beliefs, like has already happened with the Bunyip, for example. So, I just was like, 'Nope, It's not going to have any of our spiritual beliefs.'

The problem with that is because or how we view the world, you can't actually write us without any kind of-- because you're talking about connections to Country, the girls are on Country. They're out bush. They're doing these things. They're talking about community. They're with community. So, I just had to wake up and realise, you can't have that. You can't have one without the other.

And then I spent 6 weeks with 6 of my aunties going through what I could and couldn't write. And even the writing process, I had family checking it. The editing process, I had family checking it. So, that need to put the community first to make sure that I'm doing things that empower my mob and don't endanger them, or cause damage in any way, was really forefront of my head.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that's-- again, that just adds that extra layer of complexity into writing a novel. And would that be why, or part of the reason why this horror that exists in the background of this story kind of remains nameless throughout?

LISA FULLER: It is, because I had permission from my aunties to name it. But one, I fictionalised things a little bit, so it's no longer exactly the thing that I based it on. Two, people in my community will read that, and they will understand what I fictionalised and what I haven't.

But mainstream Australia and actually other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mobs won't necessarily know that. So, that was kind of me protecting that, because I'm very aware, because of who I am, whatever I write, people are just going to assume that's what I really believe. So, I need to walk a very careful line there. But also, I just really like it when things don't get seen. I think it's the most creepiest thing in the world.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think it definitely really adds to that tension, especially towards the end of the novel. You know that they're definitely in danger, but you don't know the parameters of how they can be safe and what's going to happen next.

And I remember that last-- the final scene. Argh, I can't say it, because I don't want to give away the ending for anyone who hasn't read it. But the tension there, I'm just like, 'Oh, I don't know what's going to happen here.' And having that namelessness really just adds to the tension as a reader.

So, I think that worked out really well. And also, so lovely that you were able to have that process with your family and to make sure that they would be supportive of that, whilst also protecting that cultural knowledge.

Something that I found really interesting in 'Ghost Bird' was how differently the mirror twins Stacey and Laney travel through life. You were touching on this earlier where Laney is this really disillusioned with formal schooling. She's pretty cheeky, undertaking some of that teenage risk-taking behaviour. And then you've got Stacey, who's your A-grade student who is really focused on her studies and wants to use that as a springboard to leave her country town, is sceptical of her family's cultural beliefs, but also would really not put herself in a situation where she'd be questioning her parents or authority figures generally.

And this use of Laney and Stacey as these polar opposites, was that a narrative choice, or did you draw inspiration from people in your own life when creating them?

LISA FULLER: I thought I was being really original when I wrote it. And then my family read it. And they went, 'Sorry, that's your mother, that's your sister, and that's you.' And I went, 'No, it's not.'

And then I looked at it and went, 'Ah-- oh, it kind of is.' It's based on us. It's based on our interactions. Like I said, we're chalk and cheese. Someone said to me once, 'You seem to like sisters who are really different.' I'm like, 'I think I'm just writing my family by accident.'

Well, with 'Washpool', it was deliberate. But then I based it on that, and then I took it and ran with it. And some of it is, I think, who I wish I could have been, because Tace is so sure, and she is really confident in herself. And also, I have a massive crush on Sam. ah-- [laughs] But my sister fully claims Laney is her.

And when I was writing it, she would call me up and be like, 'Where's the next chapter of my book? I'm like, 'It's not your story.'

[Jade laughing]

Yeah. So, it's-- and now I'm working on the sequel. And so, I came to this realisation a few months ago when I was at Varuna that I'm going to have to kill one of the characters. And I'm-- I'm [laughs] really heartbroken.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, which family member is it going to be? [laughs]

LISA FULLER: Well, this is the thing. So, I put it on my Instagram because I was hoping to get inspiration from people. And people were just like, 'No, you're not allowed to.' And my sister calls me up out of nowhere, and she starts yelling at me. She's like, 'You are not allowed to kill me.' And I said, Well, don't make me angry in the meantime, and you'll survive.'

JADE ARNOLD: It can be a threat now. [laughs]

LISA FULLER: Yeah.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that is perfect sibling tension there. I'm sure that'll hopefully be a good source of inspiration for you as you're writing the sequel.

So, obviously, we've got Laney's disappearance and Stacey's search for her that drives the plot in 'Ghost Bird'. But underneath that surface-level narrative is this deep-rooted family tension, a close-knit mob rallying together to try and find a missing family member, and also the realities of both internalised and structural racism in their small town. How much of this was influenced by your own experiences growing up in Eidsvold, and what aspects of small-town life did you think were most important for you to capture in your story?

LISA FULLER: It's very much my experience. So, it's 1999, Eidsvold, South East Queensland. I've had Aboriginal people and non-Aboriginal people tell me that it was very much their life if they grew up in rural Queensland. So, it was really cool to feel that connection with people and to know that it struck a chord with some people.

But yeah, it was partly me writing the book to myself and 16-year-old me, who would have absolutely loved to have seen anything in media that was a positive representation of us, but also, that was a reflection of what we were really dealing with. And also, me wanting to write it for my niblings to kind of say-- because a lot of us have had to move away from community because of jobs, and education and life.

And in some ways, 'Washpool' too is me kind of telling them about our history, but also our Country. And don't forget, this is how it was, and this is where you come from.

And one of the best experiences I had was my first cousin. I met for the first time her 2 eldest, who are teenagers, 19 and 17, I think at the time, and they were really excited. They loved reading it.

They've grown up around Brisbane, around that area, and it actually sparked big, long conversations with their grandmother about what it was like to live in Eidsvold. And that, to me, is gold. Absolutely perfect that not only could they have fun reading it, but then it turned into a family discussion around our history and our community and our culture.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And just, I guess, the contrast, I guess, if they've grown up in Brisbane versus growing up in a small country town and just seeing the differences between their experiences versus their parents' experiences.

And I'm sure that there are so many readers out there, both those who come from country towns and those who live in suburbia or in cities that get to see either themselves and their own lives kind of mirrored, or a glimpse into living in a more rural community where your library is a single shelf in-- where there's next to nothing other than what that small community has decided to collect to find information. So, yeah, really interesting representation coming from someone who's always lived in suburbia.

One of the things that stood out to me in 'Ghost Bird' was your use of Aboriginal English, particularly in the dialogue between characters. What role does language play in shaping the authenticity of your characters, and why was it important for you to include it in your story?

LISA FULLER: There were a couple of things going on. First was probably the fact that you just don't see-- well, I didn't as a kid. Like I said, though, this is now changing, thank god. I just never saw us in that way. And I wanted it to be as authentic and real as possible.

But also, I'd actually been really lucky to edit a book called 'Aboriginal Ways of Using English' by a forensic linguist, Diana Eades, who's an amazing person. And reading that book actually made me realise all these things that had happened when I'd moved away from community, when I'd moved to Canberra, and I'd started in the public service where I felt like my words were broken because I got made fun of for how I spoke, for my accent.

So, the way I speak now, I developed over years of dealing with the trauma of people not understanding me, and making fun of me, and sometimes not meaning to be bullying. But it really was-- I felt like I couldn't communicate. And so, this is me-- this is how I've learnt to speak, to be taken seriously as an educated Black woman.

But when I'm home with mob, my accent is very different. I say to my students all the time, if-- you'll hear my accent shift when I start talking story, community, family. I'm not in control of that. So, for a long time, my words were broken in both places.

And I just wanted-- after reading Diana's book and realising how much we've been told our whole lives, and our family's been told, my mother, my grandparents, my great grandparents, that our English is broken and wrong. And what Diana's book constantly says is, these are dialects, and they express culture.

And slowly but surely, I've started to realise it's a form of resistance in and of itself. And it's beautiful, and it's lyrical, and I love it. And I just wanted to fully embrace that and just go for it and make sure, because it changes.

And it was really hard to render it properly on the page. But listening to Tuuli Narkle do the reading on audiobook, oh, I just-- she did such an amazing job. And it just made it all worth it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Oh, that's so amazing. You're right, though. I think I can probably recall maybe 2 or 3 other books off the top of my head that have used Aboriginal English. And yeah, it is its own dialect. It's not just bad-grammar English. It is a genuine dialect of English.

And it is, I guess, one of those things that having more exposure to Aboriginal English in fiction just gives students this wonderful opportunity, if they speak Aboriginal English themselves, to feel more confident in theirself, to feel that someone in the world recognises that, yes, what you're saying is actually a proper English dialect.

Your words aren't broken, as you were saying. And that's so important, I think, for students to have that representation. And also, for students who aren't aware of Aboriginal English as a certain dialect, it's a great intro to it, because the thing that I notice is that it really carries a lot of the characterisation in how your characters speak. It brings through so much of their personality that adds on a lot more depth than just the narration does. It's beautiful to see that.

LISA FULLER: I think what really helped is when I used to edit, I was working at Aboriginal Studies Press and we were doing all sorts of non-fiction. And the first time I heard-- I saw-- it was a community history, I believe, where it was actual Elders' voices rendered on the page.

And it was almost like I could hear my own Elders' voices in the way that it flowed, and the lyricism, and the beauty of it. And that was just like, 'Damn. That's it. That is what it should be.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful, and so important to see as well. Let's come back now to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say our teen reader has devoured 'Ghost Bird' and is looking for their next great read. What would you recommend they try next?

LISA FULLER: Probably Graham Akhurst's 'Borderlands' is a good one. Oh, but there's so many amazing YA writers out there. Jared Thomas, Gary Lonesborough. Oh, anything by Ambelin Kwaymullina. I haven't read her latest one yet. It's on my to-be-read pile.

JADE ARNOLD: 'Liar's Test', fantastic. Can recommend. You're going to have a good time when you get to that one.

LISA FULLER: Awesome. There's the one that she wrote with her brother Ezekiel, 'Catching Teller Crow', that constantly gets compared with 'Ghost Bird'. But if you're after Indigenous horror, too, there's a podcast that talks about some of it. I think it's called 'Red Nation'.

And there's things like 'Bad Cree'. I can't remember the author's name. All these things, they're on my to-be-read pile. But I'm also a little terrified to read them, [laughing] if I'm honest.

JADE ARNOLD: I guess if they're going for that kind of thriller, horror, mystery vibe, yeah, definitely. One of the ones that comes to my mind for that real kind of contemporary mystery kind of vibe is 'My Father's Shadow' by Jannali Jones, set in the Blue Mountains.

And yeah, I really-- that one, I read years ago. And it just sticks in the back of my mind. It's like, 'Oh, that's a really good mystery novel. I'm going to recommend that one.' So, I wanted to shout out to that one. [laughs]

LISA FULLER: Oh yes, thank you. Because yeah, that's great too. And it was all coming out around the same time.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. So, Lisa, you've also won a number of awards during your career, including the David Unaipon Award and the black&write! Fellowship. How has winning these awards, as well as your career as a literary agent and editor, shaped you as a writer?

LISA FULLER: The awards were [laughs] very unexpected. And I was basically just using the deadlines to finish stuff and submitting, hoping to get feedback. That was all I was after. So, that was really shocking when I won them.

It was a huge confidence boost, because I am my own worst enemy. And so, I kind of had this moment of, like, 'Oh, I might be able to actually write.' It was-- actually, it was quite funny. When I made my mum read the finished draft of 'Ghost Bird', and she doesn't like what I write, because she's not into that.

She likes crime, she likes fantasy. That's her thing. And I said to her, 'I don't need you to like it. I just need you to tell me if I've done us right and to just check it.' And she ended up starting it, read it until 3 am.

Next morning, she looked at me and went, 'You know, you can actually write.' [laughs] Yeah. So, the awards were a huge confidence boost. The money gave me some space to actually write, which was so valuable. The ability to go to Varuna and just sit and write was, ugh, heaven.

And then, with the editor brain and the literary brain, sometimes I feel like I remove heads, and I put the different ones back on. Because sometimes-- author Lisa is very unconfident. Editor Lisa and literary agent Lisa loves talking about other people's books, and nerding out, and getting excited for other authors. But sometimes I have to leave that off, because the author head would never write if I was constantly thinking about what other people think. Does that make sense?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it really does. I think I've spoken to a couple of other authors, and one we interviewed recently was Will Kostakis. And he was talking about that same kind of process of winning an award doesn't necessarily change your life, but it does give you that confidence because you spend so much time as a writer inside your own head.

And writing is a very solitary activity. It's not like you're getting constant feedback as you're writing. And yeah, I guess it would be very easy to become overly self-critical, and that being a major block to actually getting anything down on the page. Especially when you've got that background as an editor and a literary agent where you're familiar with so many other people's work, and I guess probably comparing yourself as you go to all these other books that you've read that are equally as fantastic.

And yeah, I feel like self-doubt would definitely get in the way a lot there. So, it's lovely that those awards are there to help support writers. Give them A, that confidence boost, but B, give them the funds to be able to actually spend time writing, because it is such an intensive process.

Now, I think you've kind of hinted at this already, but can readers look forward to any new middle grade or young adult stories from you in the future? Or are there any other projects that you're working on that you could maybe share with us?

LISA FULLER: So, at the moment, I am writing the spiritual sequel to 'Ghost Bird'. You don't necessarily have had to have read 'Ghost Bird' is the point. But yeah, I am neck-deep back in the world of Laney and Tace and trying to figure out who I'm going to kill. If anyone wants to give me any hints, please go onto my Instagram and/or email me.

I am also getting my PhD novel edited. And it's basically a new adult thriller, leaning a little bit more into horror. And it's a young Aboriginal girl away from community for the first time. Second year of university feels like her words is broken. Am I hitting any familiar themes?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: But she's feeling very isolated and alone. And she gets invited to go to this writing group. But there's something very sinister going on.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I'm going to have to call dibs on those when they come in the office to review. So, I get to read them first. But I hope everyone else out there is looking forward to reading those too. I'm sure they will be fantastic.

Given that you've got a lot of experience as a literary agent, I imagine that you've got a lot of insights into the Australian publishing industry. Do you have any advice for teacher librarians in NSW, who are amongst the key listeners of this podcast, what type of books should they be keeping an eye out for when they're developing their library's collection?

LISA FULLER: Oh, I wouldn't say my experience is extensive. I'm a year in. [laughing] But--

JADE ARNOLD: It's more than me. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: I've been around publishing for, yeah, over a decade. I would 100% keep an eye out for #OwnVoices. This is why I love-- I love, love #LoveOzYA and Oz middle grade, because people are just embracing diversity and difference.

But I do think it's still really important to be including books that anyone and everyone can find themselves in. And some of those books, especially with dealing with minorities of any difference, need to be written still, I think, by authors who are dealing with those issues, be they of a different culture, of LGBTQIA+, or neurodivergent.

I still think we need those main characters. We need those own voices, because that's where our teens will find themselves and be able to find those real connections, which are so important. But still, everybody deserves to see themselves in books. And I think diversity is the key thing. But I'm really excited.

Jasmin McGaughey's new book, 'Moonlight and Dust', is coming out. So, it's Torres Strait Islander, and we have so few Torres Strait Islander voices. Keep an eye out for her.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. I follow her on TikTok. And I started following her because she would talk about books, and she'd talk specifically about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander books. And then, when she finally announced that she was writing her own story, I was like, 'Ahh!'

And the cover is absolutely stunning. But it's this, like, purply toned, very fantasy-esque looking. I'm not going to do it justice. It's gorgeous. Google the cover. The name will be in the show notes. Definitely go check that out. I'm so excited for that one.

LISA FULLER: Yeah. Well, my mum-- because I've got an early copy. I'm so excited.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I'm jealous. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: I'm going to start reading it as soon as I can this weekend. And yeah, my mum-- because we know Jas. Jas was my editor at black&write! Mum looked at the cover and went, 'She's as beautiful as Jas.'

JADE ARNOLD: Aw.

LISA FULLER: Isn't that lovely?

JADE ARNOLD: That's so lovely. Yeah, so very much #OwnVoices and authenticity. Was there anything else that you think that teacher librarians should look out for?

LISA FULLER: I'll be honest, some of the best conversations I've had have been with teacher librarians. So, I think they've got it sorted. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: I mean, look. As a teacher librarian myself, I'd like to say, maybe. Yeah, sure we do. [laughs] But it's so lovely to hear that you have that confidence with teacher librarians.

Being able to work with students directly and see what it is that they're reading and they're loving, and then being able to source titles that, as you were talking about, really showcase authenticity in the diversity of the collection so that students can both see themselves represented and get glimpses into other people's lives and develop super important empathy is so important. And maybe following some great authors like yourself on social media to come across what other titles are coming out.

LISA FULLER: Or have feedback for me about who I need to kill in my books.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. Yes. That too. [laughing] Are there any particular books that have inspired or shaped you as a reader or a writer, and are there any specific books that you would recommend to aspiring young writers?

LISA FULLER: I love reading about other writers and their process. So, I think one of the most influential for me was Stephen King's 'On Writing'. But also, I've got a lot of Steven Pressfield stuff on audiobook.

But then there's people like Elizabeth Gilbert's 'Big Magic'. There's a podcast that I listen to when I'm struggling, 'Big Lessons', 'Magic Lessons', something like that. Just devour as much of it as you can.

But more importantly, read what you want to write and just go crazy. Read, read, read, read. This is how you learn. But also write.

Because writing is a trade. You got to get dirty. You got to get in there, and it's going to suck. And it still sucks even when you think you've got it figured it out.

But that's the point. You're learning, and you're growing, and you're working on it. And once you get there, it'll be-- you won't even realise until other people tell you or you win a couple of awards. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's such good advice. I think definitely reading as much as you possibly can, especially in the areas that you like to write so that you can build on those foundational rules that you see and then break them with intention to create some really good stories.

Now, Lisa, I know that you're based in Canberra, but for the NSW-based schools near the ACT, is there ever any chance of a school visit from you?

LISA FULLER: Yeah, sure, you know, I work at--

JADE ARNOLD: When you've finished your 20 million PhD assignments and edited your book? [laughing]

LISA FULLER: The PhD is done. It's all done.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Congratulations.

LISA FULLER: Thank you. I'm looking at getting the book and the exegesis edited now to hopefully get it published. Yeah.

I work with Booked Out. I'm more than happy for people to email me. My email is on my website. Always keen to come have a yarn.

'Ghost Bird' came out in October 2019, and we all know what happened in March the next year. And so, all of my events just went away. But for about 2, 3 years, the only interaction I had with classes was online. So, I've only really been doing physical school visits for the last kind of year. It's been a real strange but really fun experience.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. I know that there was definitely a lot of-- authors have very much struggled with that, 2019 onward release period, and being able to get into schools to meet the readers who would be devouring those ideally. So, I'm glad that that's starting to pick up for you. And hopefully there'll be many schools reaching out to have you come talk about either 'Ghost Bird' or Washpool'.

LISA FULLER: Please do.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. [laughs] And finally, no podcast interviewing authors would be complete without asking what is it that you're currently reading at the moment, or what are you looking forward to reading next?

LISA FULLER: Well, I've already told you. I cannot wait to get my hands on Jas's book. But I think that comes out in July. So, sorry, guys.

But because of my life right now, it's a bit crazy. I'm teaching literary studies. So, I've just finished rereading 'The Magic Fish' by Trung Le Nguyen, 'The Gaps' by Leanne Hall. We're doing so many cool books.

Will's latest book, 'We Could Be Something', and Alison Evans's 'Euphoria Kids'. Like, so many cool, amazing. And 'The Magic Fish' isn't Australian, but the rest of them are.

But at the moment, I'm reading Alexandra Almond's book 'Thoroughly Disenchanted'. It's a cosy fantasy. But yeah, I have a 2-year-old. So, I'm no longer able to devour books the way I once did.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a lot of picture books in your life, I imagine.

LISA FULLER: Oh, there's so many. My goal is this child will be a book addict. And it looks like it's going to work that way. Hopefully, fingers crossed.

JADE ARNOLD: I feel like growing up in your house, they've got a pretty good chance of that.

[laughter]

Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Lisa. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your books and about your writing process.

And I have no doubt there'll be teacher librarians all across NSW either racing out to go and purchase your titles or pull them off the shelves and put them on display and advertise them to their students. And hopefully, many, many more students diving into your books as they work to complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge.

LISA FULLER: Fingers crossed. Thanks for having me, Jade.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you for joining. Thanks, Lisa.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW, Department of Education, 2025.