Audio transcript

Between the bookshelves – 9. Claire Saxby

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JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read, and learn.

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You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 9 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm so excited to be joined today by award-winning author, Claire Saxby. Claire is a celebrated Australian writer of fiction, non-fiction and poetry for young people. Her books are widely read in both primary and secondary schools and are known for their rich language, their lyrical prose and deep engagement with the natural world. With over 26 books to her name, Claire's work includes the acclaimed titles like 'Iceberg', 'Tree' and her latest release, 'Volcano', which were all beautifully illustrated with Jess Racklyeft and features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list. Claire, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

CLARIE SAXBY: I am very well. Thank you for having me here, Jade.

JADE ARNOLD: Such a pleasure to have you. So, Claire, before we begin, I thought it would be nice to play a quick little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can defend your choices if you wish, or you can just stand on your response-- totally up to you. Are you ready?

CLARIE SAXBY: As ready as I can be.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Awesome. OK, picture books or chapter books?

CLARIE SAXBY: Picture books.

JADE ARNOLD: Books based on the past or on the natural environment?

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh, no, that's too hard.

[laughing]

I want both of them.

JADE ARNOLD: That's fair. Researching books or writing books, what process do you enjoy more?

CLARIE SAXBY: I love, love, love, love the research. I have ups and downs. It's a bit like a roller coaster in the writing process. So, for unadulterated joy, absolutely the research.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. And would you rather explore an iceberg or a bubbling volcano?

CLARIE SAXBY: Neither would be particularly comfortable if you're talking about visiting.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Very true.

CLARIE SAXBY: But they are both incredibly rich worlds. And again, that's a line ball.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a hard one to answer, isn't it? Well, thank you so much for that. That was a little bit of fun. Now on to the more serious questions. Now, Claire, you've written across many, many genres. But let's start with your narrative non-fiction books, so books like 'Volcano', 'Tree' and the CBCA Book of the Year, 'Iceberg', along with earlier titles such as 'Emu', 'Dingo', and 'Tasmanian Devil.'

Because the Premier's Reading Challenge aims to help students discover their next great read, we ask our authors to give us a quick pitch to help readers choose their next book. So, here's your first 'between the bookshelves' pitch. Can I get you to imagine, if you will, a curious student standing in the S section of their school library, or their public library or local bookshop. What would you say to convince them to take one of your narrative non-fiction books home?

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh, it's really tricky. Readers will want different things at different times, which, as I do. And let's go with 'Volcano', because to do all of them in one go would be really tricky. But for 'Volcano', I think volcanoes attract lots and lots of young readers. But I hope that if they read Jess and my 'Volcano', they will see a whole world that they may or may not have even heard about and certainly that will be different from their-- well, perhaps enrich their imagination in seeing just what is possible beneath the ocean and just the world that spins beneath the ocean.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I love volcanoes so much. And I you're right on the money there with young readers loving volcanoes. I have a nephew who's about 4 and a half, and he probably wouldn't understand the full depth of the book by himself but absolutely is taken by those illustrations and just looking at volcanoes under the water and very appealing to anyone who loves volcanoes but also loves a little bit of information about them, too. You often describe these titles as narrative non-fiction. How would you define narrative non-fiction in your own world, and what draws you to write in this style?

CLARIE SAXBY: Narrative non-fiction, for me, is that, hopefully, reasonably seamless blend of information and story. I do a lot of research, and I try to distil that down and then carry that in a narrative. So, I, as a child, did most of my non-fiction learning in fiction.

It's a bit of a cunning plan. I drop as much information as I possibly can into every one of the narrative non-fiction stories. And I hope that there will be something that will spark the interest of a reader, no matter what they're interested in. So, that's my plan in doing them.

JADE ARNOLD: Probably the first book of yours that I remember coming across was 'Dingo', and I remember picking that up and thinking-- this is really relatively early on in my journey as being a teacher librarian-- and thinking, 'wow, this is such a unique book.' You don't come across picture books that are factual but also have this really lovely narrative that goes through it. And I remember being able to share this with my students and how interested they were in that process and how much they learned from that. So, yeah, I think it's a fantastic genre, or rather, text type.

And I think when we're at school ourselves, we tend to learn that there are 2 types of books. You've got fiction and non-fiction. But this narrative fiction fits really nicely in between both. And I think when I was a teacher librarian, I found that a lot of students would either be drawn either to fiction or non-fiction. And it's really hard to get those students to cross over to the other type of text type.

And I think this is where narrative non-fiction comes in clutch beautifully, because it satisfies the need for knowledge and learning from students who really love non-fiction books and introduces them to that beautiful narrative structure, but vice versa, as well. For students who really prefer a narrative format and want to have a story being told to them rather than just facts being thrown at them, it's a perfect way for them to explore that. So, beautiful stories, and I really enjoy exploring narrative non-fiction.

One of the hallmarks of your writing is its real poetic quality. You've got this language that's really lyrical but still conveys concepts in ways that young readers can really grasp. How do you strike that balance between your poetic storytelling with this really constrained use of words and really clear explanation that younger readers can understand?

CLARIE SAXBY: I think that comes initially in the research because I research really, really deeply, and I don't begin to write or construct the narrative or even really work out what shape it's going to take until I've done all of that research. And then it sits on my shoulder. And I don't intentionally drop it in, but I just pick from that depth of research. I just pick the elements that I want and then first get the structure and then start playing with the language to-- I don't have many words to play with. Picture books are a very short form. But it is like poetry, and that's intentional.

And I like to keep working until I find the absolute perfect word in the absolutely perfect place. And that can take a really long time. Single words can take days to be the right word. And so, there's bursts of activity, and then there's bursts of frustration where I know that I have not got the right word or the right phrases or the right sequence and I have to go for a walk or eat chocolate. That helps.

But I have learned that time is really important, to give a story time to evolve. It's the distillation process. It's just-- it is. Time is required.

JADE ARNOLD: It sounds like such an intense process, too. I think if you're not familiar at all with the writing process, you can be tricked into thinking that writing a picture book is actually a really simple process. It's just a few words on each page, right? But there's a lot of thought that goes behind each word, and, especially with narrative non-fiction or non-fiction, a tonne of research in that process to break it down into a level where your target audience can actually understand it without assistance. So, yeah, it's a fascinating process.

I imagine you've uncovered a lot of super fascinating facts while you're researching. What's one of the most surprising or memorable facts that you've discovered?

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh, look, there's a list of those. And I actually don't start writing until I have something that I think most adults don't know. And that's my benchmark. And I love when an adult reads my book and looks at it and goes, 'Oh, I didn't know that.' Yes. I have one.

I think for 'Volcano', one of the things I found amazing was right at the seabed where the volcano begins, as it erupts, it stretches the ground next to it. And that opens up the opportunity for seawater to seep through into hyper, hyper hot magma beneath. And then once it's done that and it's become super hot, then it needles back through the crust of the Earth. And that's where we get the hydrothermal vents.

And I, sort of, yes, knew about hydrothermal vents, and yes, knew about volcanoes. But the fact that there's a connection between them, but they're so different. So, one is hyper heated water full of minerals. And then we've got the magma eruption. That was a fascinating fact for me. And, I mean, there are plenty. The notion that those hydrothermal vents are then populated by immature forms of animals that drift past, the randomness of that just blew my brain.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that was a very eye-opening part of it for me, just how these little creatures will just kind of, as they're drifting along, go, 'Oh, this is a nice little spot to live.' And then when that closes back up, they just go on again on their journey.

A lot of your books are really grounded in the natural world. You've got Australian flora and fauna that feature quite heavily in a lot of your books. What is it about nature that keeps drawing you back, and why do you think it's important for young readers to engage with the environment through books like this?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, I think initially, the idea of exploring our Australian animals was really something I enjoyed a great deal because a lot of young readers, young students, are very much aware of some of our international animals. And because of our zoos, they probably get to see some of them more closely than they do their own natural fauna. Each one of the animals that I've looked at more closely, I try very hard to add in other parts of their world, like the climate in which they live, the other animals that co-exist around them, and the landscape that they inhabit.

And it's about also showing young Australians that there are a multitude of landscapes within our one country, and that is special and unique and well worth celebrating. Every time I look, research an animal, I find things or a place or a world. I discover that there's more I want to know. And sometimes that leads to further exploration of a connected world.

I found a quote the other day. I won't remember it completely here, but it's about if-- basically, it's like, look at a piece of nature and discover that it's connected to the whole world. And so, sometimes I go in really close on an animal. And sometimes I want to pull back and go, 'This animal doesn't live by itself, and it doesn't live--' You know, there's all these other worlds around it. And so sometimes I'm wanting to look at a little bit, and sometimes I'm wanting to look at a lot.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely, and just getting them to really understand the interconnected nature of our environment. And I can, from that discussion, and I think also from the topics that your books cover, I can see your books being used very often in the classroom to be used as an introduction to or an exploration of the native environment and used for geography lessons or just shared for a fantastic and beautiful story. But that's really lovely.

A number of your books have been illustrated by Jess Racklyeft. How has that process been working with her, and how have you found that process in comparison to other illustrators?

CLARIE SAXBY: It's been a wonderful process, but it's an evolving one. When Allen and Unwin brought Jess on board to illustrate 'Iceberg', I had no real expectations of how we would work together because we hadn't done it before. It's a very complex world, that the Antarctic. And I knew that Jess didn't need to do all the research that I had. And so, I pretty much picked up all my research discoveries and passed them on to Jess to do with what she wanted, to use or not use as she chose, but just so that she didn't have to spend the length of time researching particular elements, like which penguins nest where and which penguins build nests in this way at this time, and those sorts of things.

And then when we worked on 'Tree', Jess and I went for a day trip into a forest. And we'd organised to meet a ranger. And she took us into her workplace. So, we've got high vis vests and hard hats as we walk through the forest. And we were just peppering her with questions, both of us. And then she took us back to the ranger's-- her office.

And we sat around. And she tried to eat her lunch. And we're going, 'Yeah, but what about this? And what about this? And does this do this?' And she eventually finished her lunch. And we had a 2-hour trip back to Melbourne. And so, then in the car, we're going, 'Oh, we could do this. And if we do it like this-- and what about if we include this?' And 'No, that can't fit. That won't fit this story. We'll put that away for now.'

And that was an amazing process, and also incredibly generous one because the ranger was amazing, absolutely. But also, Jess then stepped back and let me write. Then she got to see the story, but not until it was in a form that was coherent and getting close to being finished.

Then 'Volcano'. 'Volcano' is tricky. Poor Jess. I feel for her because this is a book that's set in the dark. 99% of the time, it's in the dark. And she had to find ways to look at scale of the different elements, like hydrothermal vents, max, 60, 70 metres. A mountain, by definition, has to be much bigger than that. And a volcano that reaches the surface is going to be even bigger than that. So, it was really tricky for her. We have this ongoing exchange digitally where I said, 'Oh, have you seen this one?' And I'll send it to Jess.

And then she'll send me another one. And so, some of those amazing things we found work their way into the book. Some of them don't. Some of them just continue our obsession with the places that we visit in story. It's a great process.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wow. It sounds like that process has really evolved over time. I've spoken to a few other authors who've illustrated picture books, as well. And sometimes that process is not very collaborative at all. But for you to be able to go out and go on a little trip out to the rainforest and actually explore this area that you're both going to bring to life through your book must have been such a great opportunity for you to really understand how each other work and really deepen that connection that you both have as author and illustrator.

CLARIE SAXBY: Yes. That's not to say that during the process of illustrating, there's not a separation. And I think that's a really positive thing. For the narrative non-fiction, I see the world, but I see in its functioning and in its interactions. I don't see what anything looks like specifically, unless it's a real thing.

And so, I don't say to Jess, 'Look, I think you should do on this page, and I think--' That's not my gig. My gig is to make the words as good as possible and to leave the space so that when Jess comes to it, her story can mesh with my story and make a story that is greater than each of the individual parts.

JADE ARNOLD: That's amazing. It's so lovely hearing about that process. Back to our young reader in the library now. If they've read and loved all of your narrative non-fiction picture books, what would you suggest that they try next?

CLARIE SAXBY: That is as varied as the material that speaks to them. I have recently culled my picture book collection so that now there's only about 2,000 or 3,000, rather than many more than that. So, one of the ones that I love for many, many ages is a Sophie Blackall book called 'If You Come to Earth'. And I love that because it is this magical introduction to so many elements of our world that could send a young reader off in many, many different directions. There's something for everybody.

And at its heart is this story about a child wanting to be friends with somebody if they happen to rock up at their place. I think that's an amazing story and is quite ageless. Non-fiction is done so much better, I think, these days. It's not seen as a poor cousin of fiction. It is given every opportunity to shine and to engage and pull in. And it doesn't tell you-- the best of them don't tell you what you must get from it. It offers you opportunities to explore your own curiosity and extend your own curiosity.

A more recent one is 'Searching for Treasure', which is basically walking along the beach. But there's these little facts sort of woven in there. And the page construction is gorgeous-- lots of little bits of information for the curious reader. The reader who just wants to immerse himself in the beach can do that. But the reader who wants to go, 'What is that? Tell me about that.' There are clues.

Because poor parents, come on. Asking them to have the knowledge that we've spent so long researching is really tricky. 'Searching for Treasure' bury enough in there that the parent has got a little bit of a head start. There's one, Libby Gleeson's 'Charlie's Whale' pictures-- it's a lovely story of a child in a family who's quieter and goes to the beach, which is a favourite place of mine.

But again, it's looking at the way readers will follow a pathway. And in this case, Charlie is all bent on whale. He loves whales. And who doesn't know dozens of children that have particular fascinations and want to help them explore that and explore their reading through and their comprehension and their fluency as well as their knowledge going through. So, there are lots of fantastic offerings now. And there's plenty more for older readers, too. I could go on.

JADE ARNOLD: We could make this whole podcast about that, couldn't we? [laughing]

CLARIE SAXBY: We could.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Well, those are fantastic suggestions. Thank you so much for sharing them. Just for our listeners, all the books that we mentioned today, including Claire's books and any books that she recommends, will be all featured in our show notes available on the Arts Unit website. So, make sure you check those out at the end of the podcast.

Let's talk now about your fiction picture books. So, some titles of those include 'Whisper on the Wind', 'Treasure!', 'Christmas at Home', 'Sea Dog', and many, many more. What would your 'between the bookshelves' pitch be for a student considering taking home one or maybe a few of these titles?

CLARIE SAXBY: The Christmas ones I particularly love because they show an individual family doing normal Christmas things with different parts of their family. And that certainly was my history. For one year, we would go to this side of the family, and they lived here. And for another, we would go this way, and we would be with a different group of family. And then sometimes we'd just stay at home, and everybody would come to us.

And so they're the worlds depicted in those stories. And I have to say, that actually wasn't my idea. Those books were produced by Five Mile Press, and that was the editor's suggestion to her, to the illustrator, Janine Dawson. And that was just perfect.

But the thing I love about those stories is they were such fun to write. They're based on Christmas carols. And so, you can sing every one of those stories. And I have been known to do that. So, 'Christmas at Granddad's Farm' is set on a farm, and it's based on 'Jingle Bells'. My personal favourite is 'Christmas at Grandma's Beach House', which is based on the '12 Days of Christmas'. And the illustrations in that are just so much fun.

So, that series is lots of fun and provides opportunities to sing your heart out, which you should do at any opportunity, I think. 'Sea Dog'-- 'Sea Dog' is the story of my dog who just loved to roll in smelly things. Dead fish-- absolutely there for it. And when I sent that off, I didn't expect-- I sent a picture of my dog. No, actually, I don't know that I did. But the dog that came back in Tom Jellett's art was completely different to our dog, who was this really pretty dog that just did all the things that dogs have to do, a bit like people expect children who are beautiful to behave better than children who are still getting their stuff together.

And that was sort of buried in my subtext, if you like, that love isn't necessarily connected to how somebody looks or how they behave, even if they don't behave all the time. It's just a story of love and no judgement. I would say for 'Sea Dog', it's just like, I would be saying, if you love dogs or know anything about dogs, you know that they don't always do fantastic things. This is the story for you.

Let's see. 'Whisper on the Wind' is an imaginative story. Jess has just gone to town in making it full of real and imaginary creatures. And there's so many things to see. And so, I feel like my text sort of sits almost like a song above that. But the reader, if they want to love the sea, if they love mermaids, there are mermaids and mermen to find in the story. So, it's fun. The story doesn't tell them they have to do something. It doesn't-- I try not to write stories that are instruction manuals that are telling somebody how they should respond to something. I want you to get lost in it, and I want you to have fun.

JADE ARNOLD: And they're such fun and, oftentimes, whimsical stories. So, very worth exploring if you haven't tried one of those titles. How does your approach to writing fiction differ from when you're working on non-fiction or narrative non-fiction?

CLARIE SAXBY: Slightly less research.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing]

CLARIE SAXBY: Although there's always elements of truth. No matter how or what I'm writing about, there will always be hard truths. But it is really that I don't have to research. I can just spend my time just on the narrative and not have to make sure that it is accurate, that I've multi-checked my sources, that I might talk to somebody who's got a PhD when I'm doing those. I don't have to do that. I can find those same people and test out my rhythm on them by reading it out loud.

So, it's a more straightforward process. It's not necessarily easier, but it is-- there's more focus in one element of story writing than there is in another.

JADE ARNOLD: Definitely. Sounds like a very different process. And I remember you said right at the start that one of your favourite parts of the process is the research, and that the writing can be one of the more frustrating elements of it. So, yeah, definitely interesting. My gut feeling would have always been that writing a factual-based story would have been harder because you're constrained by the facts. But I guess that also gives you a pretty good framework to work within. So, there's less to choose from in terms of what you're about to say. So, yeah, that's really interesting.

Now, if a young reader enjoyed one of your fiction picture books, what other books by yourself or by other authors would you recommend they explore next in terms of fiction?

CLARIE SAXBY: The way I write non-fiction, it tends to have things that are interesting for a very wide range of readers. For fiction, sometimes those are more targeted to different ages. So, something like-- one of my favourites, and it was also a favourite of my grandchildren-- is 'The Diddle That Dummed', which is just a ridiculous story. But at its heart, it's got music. Music is in all of us. It's just in different ways.

And there are pedants and there are people who embrace every sort of sound. And I love the repetition in that, and I love the silliness of it. But it's also real. It's just lots of fun.

So, another one that I love, it's really short, but it's actually any work by Chris Haughton. But my particular favourite of his is 'Maybe...'. It's a fabulous story of 3 young monkeys, I think, of some description, in a tree who'd been told to stay home and not touch this and not do that. And, of course, they do, with the not unexpected consequences. But the reader knows more than the kids in the story do. And I love that idea that the reader then becomes complicit in-- you can almost see them going, don't do it, don't do it.

And I love the way he writes. It's so short, and it leaves so many spaces. But it says so much. And I could go with a whole range of stories all the way up. I'm just looking here. There are just so many. When you get into picture books for older readers, there are so many people who write such measured stories.

Meg McKinley, I love her stories. So many-- I am just totally stuck and can't think of one of them right now. But there are picture books that are used. A lot of my picture books are used from preschool all the way through to secondary school. And I love to be able to do that. And there are many picture books that fit into that world and thought provoking, the way they're constructed, these stories are constructed, and the richness of those texts.

So, yes, I'm certainly very much on the wagon of 'picture books are for everybody and for a wide range'. And we need to stop telling kids once they're 5, they have to read chapter books, and they can't read picture books anymore.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. I think one of the things that really stands out to me, because I'm a high school teacher librarian. And I've always had a collection of picture books. And obviously, choosing picture books for that age range is a little bit harder, because you obviously want to shy away from the ones that are just for emerging readers. But as you were saying, in that there are so many picture books that are really deep and leave a lot of space for students to use their inference skills and to try and put things together that aren't explicitly mentioned on the page, and also these beautiful illustrations that you can spend hours just poring over, using in a classroom context to look at visual literacy and unpack the meaning and the intent and the impact behind the illustrator's choices versus the words on the page.

And that's, I think, reflected in the fact that so many of your books aren't all just on the K to 2 book list. You do have a number of them on the K to 2 book list, but they go all the way up to the 5 to 6 PRC book list, which is the universal book list that any student can read from. So, you'll have a lot of high school students reading those titles, as well.

And yeah, I was having this conversation with my sister last night with 'Volcano' about this text where, you read through it, and in terms of the length of the text, you think that it's quite a simple text. And I think a Year 3 or Year 4 student could probably read it, but I don't think they would understand the depth of that title, which is why it's on the 5 to 6 book list, because once you hit that age, those students can independently, fully unpack those titles.

And another author and illustrator that we've spoken to is Matt Ottley. And he's very passionate about picture books being for all people and has a lot of picture books also for young adults and adults, as well. So, absolutely agree with you there that picture books aren't just something for younger readers, that everyone should take the time to enjoy the beauty of a well-written picture book, of which you have many.

CLARIE SAXBY: It's also, with all of the technologies that we have available to us today, picture books offer a short form, which can be as deep as you can make it. But it doesn't take long to read. So, in these days where attention spans are shorter, they often are a place to bury rich information without using a lot of words.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely, and just having that time in the classroom setting to unpack the depth of those texts, because you can read through it and unpack it in a single class, then gives those students the skills to go on to longer texts and apply those same skills. And it's such an important stepping stone in a child's reading journey, and even in an adult's reading journey, I think.

Let's talk now about your historical non-fiction books. You have 2 on the PRC book lists-- 'Meet the Anzacs' and 'Meet Weary Dunlop'. They're both well-loved by teachers and students and feature on the 5 to 6 PRC lists. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for both of these titles?

CLARIE SAXBY: Certainly, I'll give that a go. If you are interested in how we gathered our force to join the First World War, 'Meet the Anzacs' looks at some of the reasons that people joined up, some of the ways that was tricky, and some of the ways it was such a big adventure. All of those things are in 'Meet the Anzacs', and it stops before a single gunshot is fired, which is a very deliberate choice, because that is not something that people often see.

So, if you're looking to understand the Anzac legend, where it came from, this book will give you a foundation. But 'Weary Dunlop', Weary Dunlop is a much revered character in Australia. He was a very tall man. He has a very big story. If you'd like to know a little bit about where he came from, what sort of childhood he had, but some of the challenges that he faced that shaped him, then 'Weary Dunlop' is a book that will give you an introduction to a very big story.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, both of those books are fantastic examples to use, especially in a history classroom, but also just in library context of students who just want to learn a little bit more about those particular events in history without having to pull out a very lengthy tome that's very dry for someone who's maybe not a super keen reader. And they're very, very approachable. So, both are fantastic examples and, in my opinion, great to have in any library.

If students enjoyed these titles, what would be a next great read for them, especially for those curious about Australian history?

CLARIE SAXBY: I'm going to go sideways and look back into another non-fiction one, and it is one of mine. It's 'Secrets of the Saltmarsh', which came out just a couple of years ago. And we look at saltmarshes and we call them things like swamps. And they're not seen in a very positive light. But they're an incredibly important part of our world and all of our ecosystems, and they're very important that we maintain them, not just for migratory birds, but for protecting our coastline, for sequestering carbon, for all sorts of things.

And so, I've written a story-- it's not a story, it's a non-fiction text, which uses the first person to identify elements of the saltmarsh and then to how they interact with each other and looks at them through the seasons. And I really think that that's an important book, and it's an important learning. And it's also pretty much everywhere that you live, there'll be some sort of marsh or wetlands, even if it's ephemeral, and even if you only get to see it every decade or even a couple of decades.

When it happens, the processes that make these saltmarshes work. Life just sort of bursts from them. And I think it was a really interesting world to explore. So, that's it's natural history. Can I call it natural history?

JADE ARNOLD: You can do what you want. You're the author.

CLARIE SAXBY: [laughing] History-wise, Jess McGeachin has just brought out one that visits the southern islands and involves women and history. And its title is 'South with the Seabirds'. Another one that I really love is a new one from Alison Lester and Coral Tulloch, and it's a mix of memoir and history and natural-- observations of the world and illustrations and all sorts of things. And it's a fantastic patchwork quilt of a book.

It has so many different elements and is endlessly fascinating. It's got old whales, and it's got explorers. And it's got penguins, and it's got whales-- and it's got all the things in it. And I certainly have really enjoyed that. And I think readers would really enjoy it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, amazing. Is that Alison Lester and Coral Tulloch 'Into the Ice'?

CLARIE SAXBY: Thank you very much. It is a brilliant book.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's turn now to your middle grade novels. 'Haywire' is a book that I often saw in high rotation in my high school libraries that I worked in. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this story that features on the 7 to 9 PRC book list?

CLARIE SAXBY: 'Haywire' is a story about teenage boys who are too old to be children, and they're too young to be adults. And when a war that is not of their making or their understanding erupts, they are swept along in the maelstrom of that war. And they have to decide whether they will be shaped by the circumstances in which they find themselves, or whether they will take control and make their own journeys.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. What inspired you to write about this particular period in Australian history?

CLARIE SAXBY: It was the ship, actually, the Dunera. I had known about the Dunera. But when I learnt a little bit more about it, it was this idea that this massive ship full of learned men-- because they were frequently scholars. They were musicians. They were artisans. They were architects. There was so much knowledge aboard ship.

And when others might not have had the tools to try and make the best of a situation, they, onboard ship, did things make chess sets out of stale bread and organise learning for their younger members so that they wouldn't lose too much as they were sent from England to Australia as internees and were imposed on a country that didn't necessarily really want them and then sent to be in this very specific environment, 12 hours from the sea.

It had to be on sandy soil where their internee camp was built, because they thought these men were going to escape. But these men, they mounted music concerts. They made instruments from the most unlikely of things. And there was just an incredible resilience in the population that were aboard the ship. And they were then sent out to Hay, to outback NSW.

And it was this sort of notion that began to get my interest. And if I could have shoehorned all of that into a picture book, I probably would have. It was my first novel. And so, I had a couple of goes at it doing-- changing points of view. And in the end, I've ended up with 2 first-person narrators, which, probably for the first time writing a novel, isn't a very clever thing to do. Constructing a story where part of it begins on one side of the world and part on the other, also not a very clever thing to do as a first-time novelist. So, it took me a long time to get it right.

And the other thing that was really, really interesting was that when the war ended, about a third of them, I think-- don't quote me on that number-- stayed in Australia and contributed to the culture of our country in a way that was incredibly generous for a population that had been brought here--

JADE ARNOLD: Against their will. It's such a fascinating piece of history, and definitely a great one for any lovers of historical fiction and those types of things of resilience to check out. What books would you recommend to readers who connected with 'Haywire' and are looking for something to scratch that same itch?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, if they're interested in history and they're interested in my books, I did write another novel, which is 'The Wearing of the Green', which is set in 1850. And that's in a world where-- I wanted to set that in Melbourne particularly, because Melbourne was a city that grew at the most phenomenal rate between 1850 and 1860 and allowed a girl a freedom. Because of the rapid growth, some of the social constructs that would have existed beforehand and that would exist afterwards were not happening.

So, there was such a-- trying to find housing, trying to keep supplies up, trying to do all of those things, that a girl could do things that she might not have any opportunity to do any other time in history in those early days of colonial Australia. There are lots and lots of historical novels written about all sorts of different types.

And these days, what constitutes historical? How old does it have to be? It's not actually that old. So, I could write stories of my childhood, and they're probably considered historical.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I've seen books from the 1990s considered as historical fiction, which hurts. It doesn't feel like that long ago. But here we are.

CLARIE SAXBY: No. There are lots of people who write fantastic historical stories. There are some verse ones. Sally Murphy writes verse novels. Verse novel is set in Melbourne, which is also during World War I in Saint Kilda, sort of visits a world that I'm very familiar with-- and a world that I'm very familiar with, but also an element that I had no knowledge of.

And it sits actually quite closely with 'Haywire' in that it's got a lot to do with people being assessed for their cultural background, rather than for their individual, what they can offer a society. And so she does some lovely books in verse about different forms of history. She's also done some historical novels in prose. I could write a whole list, but my desk isn't big enough to have all of these books sitting on here. It would collapse. But there are many contemporary, fantastic fiction books for young people available to read in Australia there.

JADE ARNOLD: Now, the next book I was going to ask you about you've already touched on a little. It's your other middle grade historical fiction novel called 'Wearing of the Green'. I feel like you've already given us a bit of a 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this one. But is there anything else that you'd like to add about that story that you haven't already mentioned?

CLARIE SAXBY: I started to write that story because the world is full of challenges even more than ever at the moment. And we need to look at the way we consider new people to the country. And so when I started to write this, I went back to when my great, great, great grandfather arrived in the country. I wanted to look at the world into which he came. And he was part of an Irish family that did have work when they came out here. He was indentured to a stonemason.

But I wanted to look at the way migrants were treated. And so, for me, it's a story about the things that scare us about difference, and also to just touch a little bit on how little we've learned from successive generations of managing difference and accepting difference. But yes, I did explore the world of my great, great, great, great grandfather, as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's always so interesting to hear about how these historical fiction novels obviously are a glimpse into the past, but they can be used as a lens to analyse and explore the issues that still exist in our own society as a point of comparison and as a point of criticism. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why it's such an enduring and very popular genre, especially in that middle grade realm. It's such a great one to recommend to students. What's a great next step for students who enjoyed this book?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, Jackie French does a lot of Australian history. I think you can probably find something from every period in her work. I love, for slightly younger readers, the Beverly Williams books that use animals as a viewpoint character into particular periods of history. I think they make quite an accessible way to tell what are sometimes quite confronting stories. And by viewing them through that lens, there's a great access for readers who are just not comfortable going into some of the realities, or many of the realities, of war. I think she does a good job of doing that.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's talk about your 'Aussie STEM Stars' title, about Georgia Ward-Fear, who is a reptile biologist and explorer. What would your pitch be for this one to spark a student's interest?

CLARIE SAXBY: Are you brave? Are you terrified of snakes? Or do they fascinate you? Georgia Ward-Fear is an amazing scientist who goes into some very remote places and loves reptiles. She encouraged me to-- next time I came across a reptile handling travelling show-- to actually touch a snake and to hold a snake. Lizards, I have always been fascinated by. But if you want to know what it takes to be a scientist trying to protect Australia from invasive species, then Georgia Ward-Fear has a story for you.

JADE ARNOLD: That's fantastic, and I think very high praise if she's able to convince you to pick up and hold snakes, when, by the sounds of it, that's something that you haven't previously been very keen for. What books would you recommend a student explore next if this one really grabbed their attention?

CLARIE SAXBY: I think if you're interested in scientists and you're interested in people who do extraordinary things, then the 'Aussie STEM Stars' series has something for everybody. There are such a broad range of scientists who have been part of that series, had their stories written. There is many, many, many more people to explore in that world.

JADE ARNOLD: Before we finish up, I want to ask a few final questions, if I can. From your perspective, both as a writer and a reader, what are some of the standout titles that you think are must haves in any school library collection?

CLARIE SAXBY: I don't know about specific titles, but I think there is a real importance in keeping contemporary stories in a library. There are so many fantastic titles that have been around for a long time, and deservedly so, and perhaps belong as part of a collection. But for contemporary readers, I think it's really important that they see their current world reflected in a meaningful and respectful way. And so to have contemporary stories, I think, is really important.

I think it's also really important to have a breadth of story styles so that readers can choose what speaks to them on that day. Just as I go from writing really intensely researched non-fiction to writing quite light-hearted fiction books, I think readers need to have the opportunity to pick up what speaks to them on that day.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think that really just speaks to this idea that collection development isn't something that's a one and done process. It is constant. As a teacher, librarian, or a public library staff member, you're constantly looking for new titles that will engage your readers and really draw them into that world and obviously represents the breadth and depth of the diversity in your student body that are reading titles from your library. So, some great words of wisdom there.

Can you give us a sneak peek into what you might be working on next? Are there any new books on the horizon that you're allowed to tell us about, or is it all very hush-hush at the moment?

CLARIE SAXBY: It's a little bit tricky. Some of them-- I do have a number of books that are currently being illustrated. Having started my first novel as being a dual narrative, same point of view, then 'Wearing of the Green' is a single narrative that was much more sensible, but it's still really tricky. I have written a novel that is in 3 different periods of history, united by their location. I am still waiting to see whether that's speaking to anybody other than me, but--

JADE ARNOLD: It sounds like a challenge.

CLARIE SAXBY: It was tricky, but I loved the challenge. I'm very-- there's this idea that, where I sit now has always been like, this is also one that doesn't sit very well with me. So, when I go into schools, I will talk about what was here? If we were here 12 hours different, if we were here in the middle of the night, how does that change how this room works and your place in it?

And then I go back to, I look up how long this school has been there, and I go back before that. And then if they come with a farming analogy, then I go back to the next level and get them to think about the fact that wherever we walk, we are walking where others have walked. And I think that is a theme that's sort of-- I try and embed in lots of the work that I do.

And I've just started working on a story, which is absolutely without shape right at this point. But it is very research-heavy. So, I'm doing a lot of historical reading.

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds really exciting. Thank you for hinting at those. And we'll have to keep an eye out on those new releases for you. What are you currently reading? Or is there a book that you're especially excited to dive into next?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, I have just finished Ashleigh Barton's 'How to Sail to Somewhere'. I really enjoyed it. It's a lovely story. Sometimes I will look at a book and go, 'Look, I'm not sure that's for me.' And every now and again, you'll come across a book that keeps being recommended by lots and lots of different people. So, I have just begun one of those books.

It's the assistant librarian, so I have just started that. And in between, there's adult books, some of which are light-hearted to give me a break from deep historical research. And sometimes they'll be more literary if I happen to be on holidays and can spend extended period reading them and getting right into them-- so very diverse reading.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds a lot like what I tend to do. I call myself a chaos reader, or I've always got 4 or 5 different books on the go depending on my mood. Do I want to read something that's nice and easy? Do I want to read something that really challenges me? Do I want to read the book that's closest to me on my bedside table?

CLARIE SAXBY: Are you reading some pages from this one, and some pages from that one?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I'm between 4 separate books.

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh yeah, I've done chaos theory with that one.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Yeah, very much chaos reader. [laughing]

CLARIE SAXBY: Sometimes I can read more than one, but mostly it's sequential rather than all at the same time.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I get a lot of strange looks from my friends when I tell them, 'Oh, yeah, I'm about halfway through this book, and I've just started this one, and I'm 3 chapters away from finishing this one.' They're like, 'What?'

CLARIE SAXBY: I worked in a bookshop for a lot of years. And I had a lot of that sort of reading, as well, as a bookseller.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I think that's the perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Claire, for joining me today and for sharing your stories and insights and your reading recommendations. It's been so lovely talking to you.

CLARIE SAXBY: Thank you, Jade. It's been a pleasure to be here.

JADE ARNOLD: For our listeners, if you are a teacher, librarian, building your next display, or a parent hunting for your next great read for your child or a young bookworm yourself, you can find Claire Saxby's books on the Premier's Reading Challenge book lists across a range of stages.

We've included a full list of her feature titles, and all the other titles mentioned in this episode in the show notes on the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' page to help you track them down in your school or your local library. But from us here at the PRC and from Claire, happy reading, and we'll see you next time on 'Between the bookshelves'.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

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Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.