Audio transcript

Between the bookshelves – 12. Allison Tait

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JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

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You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 12 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by bestselling middle grade author and champion of Australian children's literature, Allison Tait. Allison writes under the pen name A.L. Tait and is the author of much-loved historical adventure series including 'The Mapmaker Chronicles', 'The Ateban Cipher' and the 'Maven & Reeve Mysteries'.

Her more recent standalone titles, 'The First Summer of Callie McGee' and 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot', bring her trademark mysteries into a contemporary setting with heart and humour. She's also one half of the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast alongside teacher librarian Megan Daley and a driving force behind the Your Kid's Next Read Facebook community, as well as a vocal advocate for the power of stories in young people's lives. Allison, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

ALLISON TAIT: Well, I'm feeling like a champion now that I've heard that introduction. Thank you so much for making me feel so good.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: As well you should. And it is greatly deserved. Before we get started with the questions today, I just wanted to warm up with a little bit of This or That to get to know you a little bit more. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 options, and you need to choose one of them. You're welcome to defend your choices if you like, or you can just stand by your initial answer and give us no more context. It's completely up to you. Are you ready?

ALLISON TAIT: Yes, I'm ready.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Series or standalone?

ALLISON TAIT: Series.

JADE ARNOLD: Ebooks or audiobooks?

ALLISON TAIT: That's really tough. I think probably ebooks, only because I can whip through them faster. Narrators do not always read at the pace that I would like. And I always have them on at least 1.2.

JADE ARNOLD: I bump mine up to at least 1.5. You're not alone.

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, good. Excellent.

JADE ARNOLD: Writing in silence or writing to music?

ALLISON TAIT: Silence every single time, always. No music. I cannot allow myself any distractions at all. I like the deep, dark silence. And I actually preferred, particularly when my children were young, the deep, dark silence in the middle of the night, because it was the best silence I could get all day.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Would you rather be in a castle or on a ship?

ALLISON TAIT: In a castle every time. Yeah. I'm not really a fan of things that move constantly. Yeah. I'm a little bit like Quinn from 'The Mapmaker Chronicles' in that way. Wouldn't be his choice to get on a boat, and yet there he is. So, yeah, definitely castle.

JADE ARNOLD: Secret passage or secret identity?

ALLISON TAIT: Hmm, interesting. I've always really liked the secret passage behind the bookshelf in castles. Secret identity-- I think passage. I think identity would be hard to keep up. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. One line, it all comes undone.

ALLISON TAIT: Exactly. And I think I'd really probably struggle with that. So, yeah, secret passage.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Well, thank you for that. That was a little bit of fun. Let's get started with your books now. Allison, as you're probably very aware, one of the key goals of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is to help young people find the books that they'll fall in love with. So, we like to ask the authors that come on this show a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch.

So, I want you to imagine that there is a young student standing in between the bookshelves in their school library. They're unsure of what to borrow. Or maybe it's their bookshop or their local library. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot', which appears on the Years 5 to 6 book list, to help convince them to take it home?

ALLISON TAIT: 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot' is a coming-of-age mystery story in the spirit of 'The First Summer of Callie McGee', which we also need to talk about. Willow is a capable country kid who finds herself transplanted to the city and feels like she's landed on another planet. But when her plan to get herself out of there as quickly as possible puts Willow in the middle of a mystery, she forms an unlikely friendship and finds new purpose. Can Willow solve the mystery and find room to be herself, or is she just digging up a whole lot of trouble? Read it and find out. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: That is a fantastic pitch. I think you're going to have a lot of people racing out to grab that one with that description alone. And it's really captured the heart of that story. But I wanted to ask you-- Willow is this really headstrong, determined character, but also someone who feels really out of place after moving from this remote station in the middle of Australia to the inner city. And in the author notes, you mentioned that she was loosely inspired by your own experience of moving. How much of you is in Willow?

ALLISON TAIT: You know, I think every author will say this. There is always, somewhere in a character, a tiny piece of you, because there's a connection. And that feeling that I had when I moved from the Northern-- I was 10 years old, and I was moved from the Northern Territory. I was living in Alice Springs at the time. But I'd been up in the Territory for most of my life.

And we moved to, in the first instance, a small beach village, a surf village on the NSW South Coast. And that sense of-- I mean, you know-- it wasn't even as big as Willow's, because she's gone right into the centre of a big city. But it was just that sense of feeling completely discombobulated because the rules of engagement have changed around you. You haven't changed. Everything you know hasn't changed, but the feeling that you don't quite know how to find your way into a group of friends.

And I was suddenly-- like, my dad, who had been a surf lifesaver when he was younger, is suddenly dragging us to the beach. Like, we've come from Alice Springs. And we're suddenly at the beach. And of course, we're near the surf. So, he wants us to learn-- I mean, we could all swim, but he wants us to learn to manage the surf.

And the place we moved to at that point is called Culburra. And Culburra has got this wild surf beach. And on this wild surf beach is where they hold nippers. So, my dad decides that we all need to go to nippers so we can learn how to manage all this stuff properly. And I just remember standing on this beach in my little pink singlet, being told I have to throw myself into the sand to grab some stick that was there, and watching these waves pounding against the sand, and just thinking, 'I don't even know how I'm going to do this.'

And so, I think a sense of that. And you only remember the moments from your childhood that were big. Like, if you have had a childhood where you pretty much went and did the same thing every day, and you went to school, and you went through your school with all the same people, and you did all that stuff, your childhood becomes just this nice blur of fun times. Right?

When you have big things happen to you, that's what you remember. And that move at 10 was, I think, one of the biggest moments of my life. And so, that feeling of change and that feeling of having the rug ripped out from under me, even though I was safe in the bosom of my family, don't get me wrong, it was still that sense of, 'I just don't know how to go on here.' And it took me quite a few years to figure it out, if I ever did. I don't know if I ever did-- not really. And that's sort of-- so that is part of Willow. Willow taps into that feeling of, 'I just don't know what these people are all about.' [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. I can really pick up the threads there of when you're talking about how the rules of engagement have changed. Like, right at the opening chapter of this book, Willow is at a school fair. And there's this bull-- bull? Cow?

ALLISON TAIT: Runaway calf, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Runaway calf. It's a calf.

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, runaway calf from the petting zoo that-- everyone's freaking out. They don't know what to do. Willow just goes, 'Oh, OK, I will fix this problem,' takes some rope from--

ALLISON TAIT: I'm going to rope this calf. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Takes a rope from the fairy floss stand line and brings the calf under control. And I'm sitting there, reading it, being like, 'Oh my gosh. Is this superhero story? Is Willow just this crazy talented girl that's just going to go from strength to strength?' And then everyone turns around. And it gets received really negatively. Her cousin who she's moved in with criticises her. And she goes back to get her fairy floss. And they're like, 'You stole my rope. How dare you?' And she's just completely like, 'Oh, how have I just made a mistake from day one?' And my heart just went out to her so thoroughly.

ALLISON TAIT: I think it's just that thing of-- I loved writing that scene because I could clearly picture the whole thing happening. And it's that whole thing of, like, when we go about our ordinary days, and we do the things that we do, the things that we do are just normal. This is what we do, right? So, whatever we do every single day is how we live our lives.

Willow has lived in a place where she has learned a whole range of skills that you need to know when you're out in that place. So, she knows how to drive a car. She can ride a motorbike. She's a very capable country kid. And if you have met those kids, or you've seen those kids, you know exactly what they're like. They're just very down to earth. This is what we do.

So, she finds herself in a place-- she's right in the inner city, which is a very, very different cultural-- it's the same country, but it's a completely different cultural background. And so she just does what she would do. And everyone else around her goes, 'That's animal cruelty.' And she's like, 'Oh, no, it's not.' But in this place, that is how it is perceived.

And the idea, actually, for that scene and for some of Willow's character came from watching a parenting show. It was a reality TV parenting show that was on a year or 2 ago. And I didn't actually ever watch even the whole show to get this idea. It was more in the ads. And they had a set of parents from the inner city, Melbourne or Sydney or somewhere, and they had these parents who were from out west somewhere.

And of course, they were just talking about their daily lives and what these children can do. And they know how to kill a snake. And they know how to do whatever. And the inner city parents were just horrified by the notion that these children would be doing this kind of thing. But as the country parents said, 'Well, it's survival. You either know how to kill the snake or you don't, and that's the end of it,' you know, sort of thing.

And I just really-- that struck me, that, again, it was that notion of, you do what everyone around you is doing, And that's your normal. Well, it's not normal for everyone else. And so, this idea that we all have to live our lives a certain way, actually, Australia's a big country. And we all do things differently in different places.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. There's also this lovely mix of mystery and friendship and creativity woven into the story. What was the message that you hope readers take away from Willow's journey?

ALLISON TAIT: I think what I want them to see is that if you are true to yourself, and you dig into what you are all about, you will find your place. Even when you feel like there is no place for you, if you are all about what you're about, and you stick with that-- I mean, obviously, you've got to soften your edges a little bit. And Willow definitely does that, because she does have scratchy edges. It's one of the things I really love about her, is just this no nonsense, 'Why would you do that?' sort of thing that she has going on.

But she does soften that. And she does learn from that. But at the end of the day, we get to the end of the book. And the heart of Willow Bright remains the same, right down where it counts. And I think, by doing that and staying true to herself, she finds her place. She finds her community. And she finds that one spot in the inner city where she can be herself. And I think that that's really worth working towards. That's the kind of message I'd like kids to take away from it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I loved how Willow obviously went through that character development and had to really think about how she was talking to the people that she would consider her friends, because she's used to not talking to other people her age. She's used to just dealing with adults. And obviously, it's that real different interaction.

But I also loved how, part of who she was, she also shared with the friends that she ends up making. And so, it's this nice little narrative, where she goes through a slight change, but also, she changes the people around her and helps them see things from a different perspective as well. And that was so lovely.

ALLISON TAIT: I talk about Willow like she's a person, because to me, she is. I have been living with Willow in my head for quite some time now. But she's grieving. She's grieving the loss of her home, which has been taken over by a bird sanctuary, which I loved. And she loves the fact that the birds have a home. But she doesn't like the fact that she doesn't have one as sort of like a byproduct of that.

She's grieving the loss of her mum. She lost her mum 7 years ago. And her mum has remained on the property. She's buried on the property. And so, there's this sense for Willow of grieving that, the loss of her mother, all over again. And she wants to go back to where everything was as it was. And I think we always have that sense of, 'I'm very uncomfortable right now in the present. I want to go back to where I felt good.' And I guess it's that thing of learning, too, that sometimes there's no going back, and you have to move forward.

JADE ARNOLD: And it'll be uncomfortable for a bit. But at the end, it can be OK.

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah, that's right. Yes, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: If a reader finishes Willow Bright's story and wants something similar, what would you recommend they reach for next?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, gosh. We are so lucky in Australia. We have just got so many brilliant authors creating middle grade novels that hit that sweet spot of, 'I'm trying to figure out who I am and I'm not quite sure where I'm going.' And there will be a book to help. And Nova Weetman is someone that you mentioned that-- I cohost the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast with Megan Daley. And we are big fans of Nova Weetman.

We talk about her books a lot because she writes the feels so well. It's about the feels with her. And I think a book that probably taps into the feels that are similar to 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot' is her book 'The Edge of Thirteen', because I think that cusp of turning over into your teens, which is where Willow is as well, is very much a spot where we really start to think about who we are, and what we want and how we're going to navigate this big adventure that is growing up. And I think Nova Weetman just does that so well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a fantastic recommendation. Let's talk now about another of your recent standalone novels, 'The First Summer of Callie McGee'. What is your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this one?

ALLISON TAIT: 'The First Summer of Callie McGee' is a mystery story about growing up, figuring things out and solving the puzzle of who you are. Twelve-year-old Callie is about to start high school and wants to reinvent herself into someone better. But with one week of the school holidays left, she finds herself in a holiday house, a crowded holiday house on the south coast of NSW with the family friends, the friends that you are friends with because your parents love each other.

How do you become someone new when you're surrounded by people who know you well? If you're Callie, you set out to solve the mystery of who's breaking into the holiday houses at Sawyer's Point and find a lot more than you bargained for.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's a fantastic description. And one of the things that I really loved about this book is, you've got the main character, whose actual name is Calliope-Jean, and she really wants to rebrand herself. And so, she's trying to make this new name that she's picked for herself. And she's trying to struggle between, should it be Callie? Should I be CJ? Who do I want to be known as as I go into high school?

But all the adults in this holiday home that she's stuck in are just so-- and especially her mother-- are just so set on sticking with the same name that she's always had because they still see her as the same girl. But she's really wanting to rebrand herself and restart her identity as she starts high school. And I loved that balance in this book between nostalgia, mystery and this sense of coming into your own in that really liminal space between your childhood years and your teen years. What was it that sparked the idea for Callie's story?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, Callie's been with me for such a long time. It's one of those-- it's funny how characters-- sometimes you'll have a character without a story. You'll just get this idea about this person. And sometimes you'll have a place without a person. And it takes a few different things for it to come together.

So, Callie actually came to me-- the story came from this setting. So, I had some friends who used to have this double-story, 1970s, brick holiday house in the most beautiful part of the world. So, there's a town on the South Coast called Gerroa. And we used to go there with the family friends. But I'm the parent in this particular situation. And I used to watch my boys. I've got 2 young boys-- well, they're not young anymore. They're now 21 and 18. But at the time, they were young.

And just watching them try to integrate with these people that they didn't see a lot of, but when they did see them, they were expected to get on with them, because we all got on as parents. And then my friends sold the holiday house. And I had so many great memories of it. I just said to them, 'I'm going to write a story set in this house one day.' And they were like, 'Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course you are.'

Anyway, so, I decided I would. And I sat down one day to write this story because I was so inspired by the place. And I thought to myself, so when you start writing a story, and particularly when you've got a setting like that, which is this gorgeous little village with this 7-mile beach of stretch of white sand, and it's just a stunning place, I knew it was going to be in a crowded holiday house. I knew there were going to be family friends involved.

So, then I start to think, 'OK, who can I bring into this house that is going to be the most uncomfortable person in the house?' Because that's what you want from a character. You don't want a character who's comfortable. You want a character who's uncomfortable, because people who are uncomfortable tend to do things that they wouldn't normally do.

So, then I've got Callie. And I know that she's an only child, because no one is less comfortable sharing a bunk bedroom with 4 other girls than an only child. And she's on the cusp of going to high school. She's been nerdy Calliope-Jean Jean Maree McGee the whole way through high school, because her mum is always like, 'We named you after your grandparents and-- your grandmothers. And it's a beautiful name. And we're going to stick with that.'

So, they call her Calliope-Jean. And she's looking around her. And she's looking at kids who are cool. And she wants to be one of those people. So, playing with the name, for me, it's like a shorthand of the various stages that Callie goes through-- the person she thinks she might want to be, the person she might end up being, the person she actually is.

And so, as I kind of workshop through the names, and as she workshops through the names, she eventually comes to a resting place of where she's happy, where she's comfortable. And we get there by the end of the book. But I loved spending time with her. Her mother-- I think-- I talk in the back of the book about, Callie's mum is one of those quite anxious mums who makes their kids learn to swim a kilometre just so that mum can feel happy.

And as my poor children will attest, that was me. I had them in squads for years until I was comfortable that they could get themselves, you know? So, you're kind of-- you're putting a little bit of-- there's a little bit of me in Callie, in some ways. But there's also a little bit of me in other characters in the book. And I just took that setting, twisted it a little bit, added bits to it.

And when I go to schools, I always talk to kids about the fact that you don't have to reinvent the wheel to create a great story. You can take the things that you know. And you can turn them into something new. And one of the best ways to do that is to put someone new into a setting that you know. So, that's what I did with Callie.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's amazing. And there's also some really good writing tips there for any budding writers out there, which I know that we're going to get to later in this episode. What should readers try next if they really connected with Callie's quiet strength and her journey to figuring out who she is and maybe that layered mystery at the heart of her summer?

ALLISON TAIT: Again, it comes to me. It's not necessarily a similar story per se, or a similar character, but it's about that feel. And I think that someone who writes beautifully in this kind of space is Emily Gale. And she's got 2 books, one called 'The Goodbye Year', which is set in a Grade 6 kind of a timing for her character, so similar time. I mean, Callie is sort of at the end of the summer holidays, about to go to Year 7. This is about saying goodbye to Year 6, but similar kind of feel.

And she also has another one called 'The Other Side of Summer', which involves a big change, and also just that idea of coming into your own. And I think, either of those-- Emily writes a beautiful book. Interestingly, she and Nova also write historical timeslip stories together, 'Outlaw Girls' and 'Elsewhere Girls'. And they are both also excellent. But they have a historical feel as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful recommendations. And just for our listeners, all of the books that we talk about will be included in our show notes to help you track them down. So, make sure you check those out after listening to this episode. Your earlier books have a more historical setting, but are still, at their core, focused around these really iconic characters and solving mysteries. Let's start with 'The Mapmaker Chronicles', which appears on the 7 to 9 book list. This series throws readers into this high-stakes race to map the world, packed with sea monsters and sabotage and unexpected heroes. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, I love talking about this series. This was the series that made me a children's author. And this was the series that really helped me to find my voice as a writer. So, 'The Mapmaker Chronicles' is an epic fantasy adventure story about a race to map the world and a boy who really doesn't want to go.

Fourteen-year-old Quinn is happy with his life on the farm. But The King of Verdania wants a map of the world. And due to a lifelong secret, Quinn is chosen to participate in a race to secure the prize. But the Verdanians aren't the only ones seeking a map and the power that goes with it. Nobody knows what lies off the edge of the map, but Quinn is about to find out that it's more than anyone ever imagined. Dun-dun-dun!

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, I love that. I love your-- you've got such well-polished book pitches for your titles. It's fantastic. And I think it really captures the mystery and the real reluctant hero that you see in this series. And I wanted to ask, Quinn's journey is really this-- one of self-discovery and bravery and big questions about knowledge and power. What sparked the idea for this story, especially given that you hate being on ships yourself, and what did you hope your readers would take from this adventure?

ALLISON TAIT: So, again, as the first book for middle grade readers that I ever wrote, this was one of those things that came out of nowhere, really. It actually came from 2 conversations that I had with my son, Joe. So, Joe is now 21, as I said. But he was 9. So, Joe is one of those kids that was a big fan of a head-hurting question. So, my life with Joe was always incredibly interesting. We were like, 'What is real?' We were like, 'Why is the sky blue?' All the way from the age of about 2 onwards.

And I dragged him outside one night in summer because I thought we were going to have a mother-and-son bonding moment and look at the stars together. So, that was my goal. Joe's goal generally with these things is somewhat different. So, we are standing outside. And I am looking out into this epic night sky, twinkle twinkle, stars for days, absolutely beautiful. And I'm thinking, 'Joe's going to remember this moment for the rest of his life.' [laughs]

And parents are so delusional, aren't they? Anyway, and Joe turns to me, and he says-- [laughs] he says, 'Mum, how far does space go?' And it's one of those things where, if you've got this sort of imagination like I do, you're standing there, and you're looking out into this epic night sky. And you start to think about the fact that they are sending out rockets and probes. And we are-- I'm not scientific. We are like 8 billion light years from Earth. And they still haven't found the edges.

And then you start to think about what might be at the edges. And it makes your head hurt. So, I said to him the only thing a parent could say under these circumstances, 'No one knows. Let's go inside and google that,' because that's what we do, right? So, we found out that no one knew. And he didn't know. But if no one else knew, that was fine. So, we were good.

And then, the next night, we were reading a 'Horrible Histories' book. And we were both enormous fans of the 'Horrible Histories' series because they are so funny. The boring bits of history are taken out. There are so many entertaining ways to die in a 'Horrible Histories' book.

And so, we were reading one about explorers. And they were getting shipwrecked and falling overboard and being eaten by things. And it was all very hilarious for us, not so hilarious for them. And he turned to me, and he said, 'Mum, how did they map the world?' And I said, 'Well--' you know, not as head-hurty for me because I am also the weird mum who's going to drag you through dusty old exhibitions about maps because they're beautiful. They are so beautiful. If you look at those very old maps with the angels blowing wind in the corners--

JADE ARNOLD: And all the sea monsters.

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, the sea monsters and the mermaids. And they are just beautiful, and they-- I just love the fact that they show us not just what we knew about the world in those days, but what we did not know. And I said, 'Well, they had to go. They had to get in their ships. They had to sail out onto those endless oceans--' pretty sure they were going to die in some entertaining way-- entertaining for us, not so much for them. But 'they had to go'.

And I said to him-- I just had one of those mum inspiration moments-- and I said, 'Well, they would have felt the same way that we feel when we stare out into space.' So, it was those 2 conversations coming together, not knowing where the edges were, but having to go to find out if there was anything out there. And just in that moment of those conversations, and I said to him, 'Oh, that would make a really great-- [laughs] really great book about mapping the world, a race to map the world.' And he was like, 'Yeah, you should totally write that, Mum.' And I was like, 'Yeah, I don't write for children.' [laughs]

So, I parked that idea for about 6 months. And it wasn't until 6 months later that I sat down and thought, 'You know what? I'm actually going to see if I can do this,' because I'd never done it before. 'I'm going to see if I can. I'm going to have a crack at it.' And it was just the most fun that I had had writing anything for such a long time, forever, ever. And I had blasted out the first draft in about 6 weeks. That's how excited I was by it. And so I thought, 'I think there might be something in this.'

JADE ARNOLD: That's a phenomenal story. And I love also how there's that real deep connection to those moments with your son. And that sparked this series.

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, absolutely. You can imagine, can't you, how much he loves the fact that I'm going out to schools, telling that origin story over and over and over again. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, yeah.

ALLISON TAIT: He's like, we need a new story, Mum.

[laughter]

It's very funny.

JADE ARNOLD: I can imagine. [laughs] Next up is 'The Ateban Cipher', which features on the 5 to 6 book list. This duology begins with a mysterious manuscript and a boy raised in a monastery who suddenly finds himself on the run. What's your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this story?

ALLISON TAIT: I'm just going to say, I love this series. This is one of those ones where it's 2 books that I absolutely adore. I love the question at the heart. I love everything about it. So, I'll give you the pitch. Why would you write a book no one can read? When 14-year-old Gabe is handed a mysterious book by a dying man, he receives just one instruction. Take it to Aidan.

Gabe is hurled into a quest that takes him beyond his monastery home and into a world of danger and adventure. As he seeks to decipher the code and find a mystery man who may not even exist, Gabe learns that survival must be earned and that some of life's biggest lessons are not found in books. Gabe finds himself questioning everything he knows about right and wrong and wondering if he'll ever find a way back home. He also discovers that the biggest secret of all may be his own.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, very mysterious. I love the sound of that. [laughs] But there's this really rich sense of mystery in this book. You've got these secret codes. You've got lost identities and dangerous truths. What was it like, as the author, trying to come up with all these codes and ciphers and weave them all into the plot? How did you go about that?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, that was a challenge. I have to make a firm confession at this point. And if you are an educator out there listening to this, block your ears immediately. But I don't plot my books. I don't plan them. I just kind of get a question. And I started this one with just this question: Why would you write a book no one can read?

And it was sparked by a tiny newspaper article I read. And so, we're talking a few years ago now, because it was actually in print. And it was about a very old illuminated manuscript called the Voynich manuscript. And the article that I read was about the centenary of the discovery of this book, which was found in an attic in Poland. And it was one of those things where it was a cipher. So, it was all written in code.

And for 100 years, at the time of this article I read, people-- academics, scholars, historians, linguists, like, smart people-- had been trying to read this book. No one had ever, and I think, even to this day, has ever read the Voynich manuscript. No one actually knows what it's all about. And I got to the end of that article. But I absolutely love illuminated manuscripts for the same reason that I love old maps. They are just stunningly beautiful things.

So, I got to the end of this article. And all I could think was, 'Why? Why would you write a book no one can read? What could it possibly be? What could be so important, you had to write it down, but then you had to lock it away so that not everyone could figure out what it was all about?' And obviously, there was a key to the Voynich manuscript at some point. But it's been lost over time. So, I had this question. 'Why, why, why? Why would you write a book no one can read?'

And the other thing that I had-- and again, a question and a feeling. I'm all about the question and the feeling. The feeling was, I remembered when Joe, my oldest son, was 2. We had taken him overseas. And part of the trip was that we had gone to Ireland. And I wanted to see the Book of Kells. So, the Book of Kells, very old illuminated manuscript, which they open one page. And I had seen it when I travelled overseas on my own in my 20s. And this was me going back. And I'd seen one page.

They only open one page a day. So, I'd seen the one page. And so, I wanted to go back and see another page. [laughs] So, I've now seen 2 pages of the Book of Kells. Very exciting. But I just remember the feeling of standing in front of that book and wanting to take it home. I just wanted it so badly. I'm not someone who's covetous of things, necessarily. But there was just something about that book that had my mouth watering. And I just wanted to-- like, 'I'll just put it under my arm.' I didn't. You'll be glad to hear, I didn't do that. But I remember that feeling of wanting that book.

And so, when I read about the Voynich manuscript, I had that question in my mind. 'Why would you write a book no one can read?' I remembered that feeling of wanting the Book of Kells. And I set out to write myself an answer to that question. Why would you write a book no one can read? Great question, right? Super excited by myself, loving myself sick at the very concept, because the question also gave me a setting.

I knew I had to start, at least, in a monastery, because that's where these things were created. And then I'm looking at my character. And I'm thinking, 'I'm writing middle grade. I need my character to be about the right age, about 14.' So, then I'm researching, because even when you write fantasy adventure that's not quite history and is completely made up, you are also researching to make sure that it's grounded. You want to make sure that it feels real.

So, I'm looking at, 'Why? Why would a 14-year-old be in a monastery?' And then I read about foundlings. And I read about the fact that a lot of monasteries and abbeys and convents had a box out the front. And if you couldn't look after your baby, you popped your baby in the box and put the box through the wall. And then the monks or the brothers or whoever was on the other side would raise the baby in the church.

So, that's when I knew why Gabe was there. So, Gabe's never been outside the walls ever, never. So, he's given this book. And at this stage, we don't even know that it's all written in code. We don't know anything about it. But because I know that the best way to get a story really going, again, is to make my character uncomfortable-- so, if Gabe has grown up inside the walls, surrounded by men, I need to get him outside those walls as quickly as possible.

He's got this quest. He's got to get this book to Aidan. He has to look after it. He's got other people who want the book in the same way I wanted the book. Right? In the same feeling I wanted the book. So, he goes up over the walls. And he's out in the deep, dark forest, a babe in the woods, absolutely.

And then I think to myself-- I'm writing the story. And I'm thinking to myself, 'How can I make this worse for Gabe?' Because that's what you do as the writer. We are so awful to these people. So, I've got this boy. And I think to myself, 'How do make this worse?' And it's almost like you're not actually putting this stuff together consciously. This is your subconscious working through, 'How do I make this worse?'

And so, of course, Gabe runs into the most foreign thing out there in the woods that a boy who has grown up surrounded by men could possibly run into. And it is a group of amazing girls who are living in a tree, kind of Robin Hood-y, living in a tree out in the woods.

And one of those characters, Gwyn-- I think, if you had to ask me who was my favourite character that I have ever, ever met or created, it would be her. Oh, I loved her so much. She is a girl who goes where she wants, when she wants. And she has this take no prisoners-- 'I'm going to do what's right for us. I'm going to do what needs to be done as it needs to be done. And I'm just going to find a way to do it.'

And again, it's a little bit like Willow. I love capable people. People who know how to do things are my favourite kind of people. And so, there's Gwyn, going about her business. So, I'm writing this story. And I'm absolutely loving it. I've got this brilliant question at the heart of it. And as the story is unfolding, it suddenly dawns on me that at some point, I am going to have to answer that question.

So, we have 'The Book of Secrets', which sets it all up. And then we have 'The Book of Answers', which resolves everything. And 'The Book of Answers' was one of the most difficult books I have ever, ever written, because there was such a lot to do. And I had to figure out how it was going to happen. So, I'm just going to say this. If you are someone who writes like I do, [laughs] just be aware that you are setting yourself up for a lot of walking, because that's what I do.

When I'm trying to work through a plot, I don't sit at my desk and smash my head against the keyboard, even though I feel like doing that. I get up, and I walk. And there is something about the act of meditation, of tucking that problem into the back of your mind and just moving forward, moving forward, moving forward, that I find, when I come back, unlocks whatever it was that I was struggling with enough to allow me to move the story forward as well.

And so, I did an awful lot of walking with that particular book. I will say this. I always do have an idea of how it's going to finish. I know where it's going. I know how it's going to end. I did have an idea of what the solution to reading that book was going to be. But it's not always easy to get where you want to go. You kind of find yourself rappelling down cliffs and up cliffs to try to get to the point where you need to be.

So, yeah. Have a plan, people. It's much better, particularly if you're a young writer, because it just has that capacity to go horribly, horribly wrong. And you find yourself sitting there, thinking, 'I'm never, ever going to be able to complete this.' And sometimes a little bit of experience is the only way that you actually get through that particular problem.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, of course. And the next book of yours that I want to talk about is the 'Maven & Reeve Mysteries'. These are also found on the 5 to 6 book list. And they are these witty medieval mysteries with a clever servant girl and a young squire with some unusual skills and a secret to keep at the centre. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this duo?

ALLISON TAIT: The 'Maven & Reeve Mysteries' are detective stories set in a world of knights and castles, lords and ladies. The first book is 'The Fire Star', where we meet 16-year-old Reeve, who is desperate to be a knight and at last has been made squire to Sir Garrick of Rennart Castle, and 15-year-old Maven, a maid who arrives at the castle with Sir Garrick's betrothed, Lady Cassandra.

But Maven has a plan of her own and a secret society to help her. When the Fire Star, a dazzling jewel of incalculable value, goes missing, Maven and Reeve must band together to solve the mystery or lose everything dear to them. And then, in the second book, 'The Wolf's Howl', Maven and Reeve find themselves in a bleak castle in the fief of Glawn, where a woman has gone missing, and insurrection is afoot.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh. Very intriguing mysteries. And very well worth picking up and diving into those. But what I loved about these books is that there's this lovely balance of humour and sleuthing and historical intrigue and a lot of those rules and regulations, when you look back at medieval times, that kind of structure this novel. What was it that inspired this dynamic between Maven and Reeve, and did you always know that they would be solving medieval crimes together?

ALLISON TAIT: This is one of those ones where I say, 'Planning is always a great idea, people.' So, I really wanted to write a straight detective story. So, I had mysteries in 'The Ateban Cipher' and mysteries in 'The Mapmaker Chronicles'. But this was my third series that I'd written. And I love mystery stories. I've read them my whole entire life. And I have always been one of those people.

As a young reader, as an older reader, I have always been one of those people who's constantly trying to outsmart the author. I'm trying to figure out the solution to the problem before the end of the book. And so, I thought to myself, 'You know what? I'm going to see if I can write one.' And I love that almost-history world. So, I ground them in medieval history. But then, of course, again, it's about, take what you know and make it new. And so, I create my own entire worlds for my own characters.

Now, when I got to this series, I knew I wanted to write a detective novel. But I also wanted to write a hero that was not reluctant. So, I had written Quinn. And I had written Gabe. And I wanted a confident guy. I wanted to see what life was like, because I think I would always be a reluctant hero. I feel like, if somebody came and said, 'I'm going to pop you on a ship and send you out into uncharted waters,' I'd be like, 'Yeah, no, that's fine. I'm over here with my book.' I feel like I'd be that, much the same as Quinn is.

But I wanted to write a different sort of a character. And I was partly inspired by my son, Lucas, my younger son, who is one of those kids where he's a charismatic, confident sort of a guy. He's got a great smile. He's the sort of person that it didn't matter where we took him as a young child or older teen. He would have a friend and be playing soccer within about 2.5 seconds. He was just that guy.

He was just like, 'Hi, how are you going? You like soccer. I like soccer. Let's play soccer.' He was that kid. And I wanted to write a character that was a little bit like him, who would go to the party and be at the centre of the room the minute he got there, that sort of character.

So, I came up with Reeve. And Reeve was my detective. He was my guy. I was going to write a similar sort of third-person, young male hero story about Reeve, who solved mysteries. And he's a confident guy. He wants to be a knight. He's got it all going on. He's ready to go. And he arrived at the castle. And he sort of swaggered in a bit. And I thought, 'Yeah, this is really good.' And I've even named him Reeve, which is a very oldy-worldy-fashionedy word for 'sheriff'. So, he's the sheriff. The new sheriff's in town. Here we go.

And so he turns up at the castle. And he knocks on the door. And he swaggers on in. And he does all this stuff. And he's grown up in castles his whole life. He's been a page. He's been on his own in a castle since he was 7. He knows how things work. He's very political, very observant. And this is the kind of world that some of these young men found themselves in. They were shipped off to someone else's castle to learn how to go about in the world. But they were sent off at the age of 7.

And when we talk about castles, some of these places-- this is not 24 people and a Disney princess. This is like 1,000 people of all different kinds of things. And you very quickly have to figure out how things go. So, this is Reeve. And he gets into the castle. And he wanders downstairs to the kitchen to swipe a cake, because that's the kind of guy he is. And then he met Maven.

And as soon as he met Maven, I thought, 'Oh, I am in trouble here with my storyline,' because it very quickly became apparent to me that she was the brains of this operation. She's much more reserved. Her world is a lot smaller because of the way this particular society operates. She's a girl. She's not supposed to be educated. She's got a very defined role. And she's really not very happy with that. But she sees everything because everyone overlooks her.

And so he met her. And I thought, 'Oh, maybe these are the Maven mysteries.' So, I had, at this point, about 15,000 to 20,000 words of this book written. And I thought to myself, 'What I'll do is I'll try it from Maven's perspective.' So, I thought, with Maven, it needed to be a first-person story, because it's quite an intimate way to tell a story, in first person.

So, I switched it all around to Maven, first person, and quickly realised that that wasn't going to work for me because she didn't have enough agency. She couldn't go to all the places I needed her to go. She couldn't do the things I needed her to do. And so, at this stage, I've now written the first 15,000 to 20,000 words twice. And so, at this point, I come to the conclusion that what I need to do is rewrite the whole thing again. But now we're going to have it from 2 points of view.

So, we get Maven's perspective, which is all in first person, present tense, very immediate, very intimate, very close. And then we also have Reeve's perspective, which is all in third person, past tense, because he has a bigger perspective on the world. And that allowed me to give the reader a bigger perspective on the world. So, once I got to that point, I was absolutely, totally and utterly away. And so were they, as far as figuring out who stole the Fire Star, although this is one of those books where I didn't actually know who it was until I started writing the second-last chapter.

I was as surprised by who it was as I think Maven and Reeve were. And I thought to myself, 'Well, if I'm this surprised by it, then surely my readers will be as well.' So, you know what? I think everyone should have a read of it and then let me know if you were as surprised by the ending as I was.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Look, I didn't see it coming. So, I think you've done a great job with that. Now, for the readers who've finished one or all of these series and are desperate for something similar, whether it's the next mystery or action or the character dynamics, what books would you recommend they pick up next?

ALLISON TAIT: When I think about these books, the mystery is at the heart of them. And then there's that almost-history feel to them. And what I think really probably ties my 3 series together as much as anything is the voice of those series. So, it's the writing voice. My characters-- I try to make them as smart and as funny and as witty as I can. I'm always looking for humour in situations, even when things may not necessarily be humorous at the time.

And I think a series that does that beautifully as far as the voice goes, and also with that almost-history feel to them, is the 'Ranger's Apprentice' series by John Flanagan, which is one of my favourite series ever. My boys both loved it as well. It's got the pace. It's got the adventure. It's got that not-quite-history feel to it. But for me, it's the inside jokes and the voice that really bring that series to life. And I think it's one of the things that my boys in particular probably found most engaging about the 'Ranger's Apprentice'.

So, when I set out to write 'The Mapmaker Chronicles' as my first novel, you're always writing-- for me, I was trying to write the kind of book that my boys were loving reading. And so, there's always going to be that sense of, 'How can I bring my voice into this,' and 'How can I make it funny?'

And Joe-- I remember, I read the first draft of that first book out loud to him. And he goes, .My role here, Mum, is to tell you where the boring bits are so that you can take them out.' And so, that was the job. And he turned to me in all seriousness-- he's like 9 years old-- and just said, 'Look, Mum, when it gets a bit boring, what you need to do is just chuck in a battle. You just need a battle of some kind.'

And it's actually excellent advice, because it's exactly what you do need. It doesn't have to be an all-pitched, bows and arrows battle. But you need some conflict. If things are getting dull, then it means your characters-- there's no conflict in their life. They're not uncomfortable enough. So, let's make them uncomfortable.

JADE ARNOLD: Maybe you need to throw in, I don't know, a flock of geese.

ALLISON TAIT: [laughs] Maybe.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Now you're also one of the voices behind the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast and the Facebook community, both of which are fantastic resources for parents, for educators and for young readers. Can you tell us a bit about 'Your Kid's Next Read' and how it came to be and what makes it so special?

ALLISON TAIT: OK. So, Your Kid's Next Read is a community. It is a podcast. It is a newsletter. It is a phenomenon, I think. It is a lot bigger than I ever expected it was going to be. We set out to create a village to grow readers and writers. And it has absolutely expanded our expectations beyond belief.

But at the very heart of it, it is actually a friendship. So, Megan Daley, Allison Rushby and myself are team Your Kid's Next Read. Allison Rushby and I have known each other for a very long time as writers. We were both writing different things before we started writing for children, even. We've been friends a long time. And Megan Daley and I met through blogging. I started a blog about 15 years ago called 'Life in a Pink Fibro'. And we actually connected through that. And over the years, we became friends.

And when Joe-- at that stage, he was known as Book Boy to the wider world. When he was sort of getting into his teen years, I think-- we're talking about 8 years ago, probably. So, he was maybe 12 or 13. And I was getting asked all the time, because I'd started writing for children, and I had all of these parents saying to me, 'What can I give my child to read next? They like this. They like that. I don't know how to get them started in reading. They don't really love it. What can we do?'

And enough people asked me this question. And I had found myself asking Megan the same question a lot of times for Joe and also for Lucas, but mostly for Joe, because he was a very, very advanced reader. So, at the age of 7, he had an adult reading level. So, I was struggling finding things that were interesting enough for him, but also at a good level.

So, I was asking Megan a lot. And then we started getting into 12 and 13. And we're into teen years. And so, I was talking to Trish Buckley, who was a friend of Megan's. And I just said to Megan one day, 'I think we need a group. I think, if I'm asking you these questions, people are asking me these questions, people are always asking you these questions, let's just start a Facebook group.'

So, we started Your Kid's Next Read as a little Facebook group for parents, educators, carers, all manner of other interested adults who were looking for the next read for their particular young reader. Whatever that young reader may bring to the table, whatever their interests may be, whatever their reading level may be, just, let's get them going.

And we now have about 38,000 members in that group. We have this podcast, which is about to celebrate its 200th episode. We have a newsletter. We have all of these different things that are going on. And as I said, we've created a village to create young readers or to help create young readers. And I think that it's one of those things that is necessary more than ever now, with school libraries either closing or not having a qualified teacher librarian, with books being harder to find.

I mean, a lot of regional areas-- I live in a regional area. And we're lucky that we have a couple of different bookshops still in our area. But there's a lot of places out there that don't. They have the big stores, like Kmart and Big W, et cetera. But they don't have an independent bookseller. And they don't have someone that they can say--

JADE ARNOLD: 'I'd like this title. Can you order it in for me?'

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah, or, 'My kid likes this. What should they read next?' Or that sort of thing. So, it's filling, I think, a spot there, because it's incredibly difficult to do it by yourself. I'm a writer. And I still struggled with trying to find the right books for-- I've had this advanced reader, but then I also had a kid who preferred, and still does, prefers running to reading.

And he doesn't like it when I say this. So, we called him the family Kelpie for a really long time because he just needed a good run every day to take the edge off. And getting him to sit down with a book was incredibly difficult. So, I spent a lot of time throwing books at that child. And I never gave up. I'm still giving him books. And he does read now. He's 18 now. We're out of school, which helps.

But he's never going to be what I would call a keen reader. But the fact that he reads it all, I feel, is one of the greatest achievements of my life. And I couldn't have done it without a group and without a community around me like I have. So, what we're trying to create is a space for people who may not have that easy access to that community. Well, here it is. Your Kid's Next Read. Get involved.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And it's been, as a teacher librarian, such a fantastic resource for me. When I was in a school library, and I would come across students who would just give me the most out there, like, 'Miss, I've read x, y and z,' and all the recommendations I could give them, they'd already read, so turning to that community to be able to seek out more recommendations, but then also being able to jump on and share those recommendations back.

It's that beautiful community where there's so much shared. There's so much given back. And then, of course, the podcast, which was one of the main inspirations behind starting this podcast, has been a fantastic resource for me, trying to keep abreast of all of the titles that are released that we perhaps haven't received to review for the Premier's Reading Challenge, or just for my own personal reading. Yeah, it's a fantastic resource. And it's so lovely that it exists and definitely something that, if you haven't listened to, then you need to go and find it ASAP, after you've finished listening to this episode.

ALLISON TAIT: Absolutely. And you'll find all the details about everything, and where it came from, and everything you need to at YourKidsNextRead.com.au. So, it's a one-stop shop for all of Your Kid's Next Read requirements, really. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Definitely go check it out. We'll include a link to that website in our show notes as well. It's so clear from your work and your podcasts that you're incredibly passionate about supporting young readers. What advice would you give for teacher librarians or Premier's Reading Challenge coordinators who are trying to help students fall in love with books?

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah. This is a question, again, that we get asked a lot. And I think one of the best things that you can do for any reader, and it's something I've done with my own children, is to meet them where they are. So, it's about finding books where they are, not necessarily where anyone else in the whole universe thinks they should be, or could be, or anything like that. It's about where they are at the moment.

And it is also about-- and this is something that the community has got very, very good at in Your Kid's Next Read. We will often have people, particularly newer members, come in and say, 'I need a book for a 13-year-old boy.' And immediately, the group goes into, 'What does that 13-year-old boy like to do? What has he read before that he's enjoyed?'

So, it's not necessarily about that blanket, 'I need a book for a 10-year-old.' It's about, 'My 10-year-old likes grasshoppers and drinking straws and whatever and likes to read books about basketball.' And the thing that fascinates me about this group, the thing that just astonishes me every single day, is it actually does not matter what you come at them with. They will find you a list.

If your child is into cockroaches, there will be a list. I just saw a question in there today about, someone was looking for books about drinking straws. I don't want to ask any questions. I don't need to know any more than that. But there were 5 or 6 responses to the drinking straws response. And to me, that is the power of that group.

So, I think it is absolutely about drilling into what that child likes or what that young reader enjoys and meeting them where they are, right where they are. We get a lot of questions around graphic novels, and wanting to move kids on from graphic novels, and funny books, those highly illustrated books, wanting to move them on. And we're like, 'You know what? Go in hard with those funny books. Keep them reading. And then try to move them sideways. It's not necessarily always about going up.'

And I think, as adults, we're always thinking about going up. What's next? What's next? What's next? But in actual fact, sometimes it's about, 'OK, here you are. What else is on this plane with you? What else can we do that goes sideways and might bring you into a new sort of interest or a new genre?' I guess that's probably my main advice for that.

JADE ARNOLD: That's really important advice, too, is just absolutely meeting students where they're at and focusing on books that they enjoy. And if it means reading 50, 60 books that are very similar in their structure, they're still getting a lot out of those books, because we might look at them and see, as adults, those are quite short, simplistic books, because they're short and simplistic for us. But for readers developing their reading journey, they may not be. But even if they're not, if they're enjoying that, then that's going to build that long-lasting enjoyment in what they're reading.

ALLISON TAIT: It builds confidence. And we take a great deal of comfort out of being confident with reading things. And that's-- we did a whole podcast episode on rereading because we had-- at that particular point, we had a whole bunch of parents who were concerned about the fact that their young readers were just rereading the same things over again.

And again, it comes down to that-- it's a comfort thing. And I think people get-- the uncertainty in the world in the last few years permeates its way down to kids in all sorts of different ways. And if you get comfort or take comfort out of knowing how a book's going to end, then let's go with that. Why not?

JADE ARNOLD: And I think that's probably why series books are so popular with younger readers as well, because it gives them the same characters to come back to. And it's just, what problems are they trying to solve? Or what chaos is happening? That's the uncertainty. But we know who they are. We know how they act. And that gives them that comfort.

ALLISON TAIT: It does. It's important, if you are trying to move a child sideways, to find out what it is they like about what they're reading at the moment, because we make the assumption that they like that book because it's simplistic, highly illustrated. But it may just be that there's something about that particular character that speaks to them or there's something about the friendship dynamic in that group that's really working for them.

So, if you can drill a little bit into a particular type of humour, because as much as they tend to be all put under the same banner, fart books or whatever, they're not all the same. And we have some incredibly skilled writers creating those junior fiction-- I'm particularly looking at those junior fiction series in this comment.

We have some incredibly skilled writers writing those. So, it's about finding out-- it could well be that it's that rolling action, the pace of them, that is actually working for your young reader. So, if you can find out what that is, you can find more books about friends, or more fast-paced books, or more whatever. And that's a way to ripple them out into something slightly different.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And I think that's always a good strategy, whether you're dealing with young readers, whether you're dealing with teenagers, asking them what it is that they liked about that book before you go in to recommend their next book, because that actually is going to be the more powerful indicator. They don't necessarily want a carbon copy of, 'OK, you liked this murder mystery, where it was 2 people trying to solve the crime. Let's give you another murder mystery with 2 people trying to solve the crime.'

That's not necessarily the answer. The answer might be, 'Oh, I liked that it was set in a boarding school,' or 'I liked the dynamics between the characters. I liked x, y, z.' Whatever it is, that's where you want to pull the recommendation. And maybe it will end up being another murder mystery or something similar. But being able to identify those key points there is really, really key.

ALLISON TAIT: Sometimes it comes down to something indefinable. And they'll just say, 'I like the way it's written,' or they'll say, 'I just like the story,' or whatever. And if they say that to you, they are responding to the voice of that book. So, it is about you having a look at what is-- 'Is it sassy? What is it about that voice?' Because that sassy voice, particularly in that teen space, you will find that in all kinds of different genres, just dealt with in a different way.

So, voice is one of those things. It's really hard to define. But it's so incredibly important. And once you get the hang of what it is that they're feeling about it-- it's like a rhythm or a sassiness to the voice-- it does become easier to find that feel elsewhere.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. That's such great advice. In addition to your novels and the Your Kid's Next Read community, you also commit a lot of your time and energy to supporting emerging writers. You've previously cohosted the 'So You Want to Be a Writer' podcast and coauthored the book of the same name with Valerie Khoo. And you run creative writing courses for children. Can you tell us a little about these initiatives, as well as some of the most common questions or challenges that come up from young writers?

ALLISON TAIT: OK. So, 'So You Want to Be a Writer', the podcast, was something that Valerie and I started a long time ago. Again, came from a friendship. I think the very best of these sorts of things come from a friendship, because you have to want to spend a lot of time with this person. And you have to enjoy chatting with them, particularly if it's a podcast. Consistency is the key with a podcast. And so, if you're going to turn up week in, week out, to talk about something, you want to be, A, passionate about the subject, and B, extremely happy to talk to that person about that subject for a long time.

And so, obviously, Valerie runs the Australian Writers' Centre. And she was looking for a way to share some of the stuff that the Writers' Centre was doing, but also to be able to interview other authors and to be able to share that love of writing with an entire community.

And we just get on really well. And we have similar, but different backgrounds in writing. And so, that was a lot of fun. I interviewed an enormous number of authors through that podcast. And it was a great joy for me to do that, because I learned something from every single author I spoke to. And I think, if you tune in and listen when people are talking, particularly about something that you love, it doesn't matter how much you know about something. There is always going to be something new to learn. And so, for me, that was just a great joy.

And we wrote the book because we wanted to distill all of the things that we talked about regularly. I think I did 486 episodes of that podcast with Valerie. And if you are talking about anything for 486 podcasts, you are going to start repeating yourself in certain ways. Similar questions come in.

So, we decided that we would create a book that distilled all the things that we had talked about a lot over all those years. And so, 'So You Want to Be a Writer,' the book, was the result of that. And that was a great exercise for us to do as well because it made us articulate, in absolutely written, accessible, engaging terms, all of the things that we chatted about regularly. And I very much enjoyed the experience of writing that book as well.

And then the courses-- I had taught various courses with the Australian Writers' Centre over the years, because I was a freelance journalist when I first started my blog and first started even 'So You Want to Be a Writer', the podcast. I think the first episode of that came out even before 'The Mapmaker Chronicles'.

And so, at the time, I was doing a lot of freelance journalism. I had written 3 nonfiction books. I was writing fiction in my spare time in the middle of the night. So, I brought a different skill set to that. And I have tutored in journalism, writing features, et cetera. I've done creative writing courses for adults. And then I created my own course-- actually got a couple of different ones-- but one of them specifically was creative writing for kids, 9 to 14.

And it covers off all the foundations of the things I know about writing, which I am still using to this very day, but in kid-friendly language and exercises, et cetera. So, it's really enjoyable. And you asked what was the tips or advice that I see. The number-one piece of advice I find myself giving young writers in that course-- so they upload an 800-word story for me to read. And the number-one piece of advice that I find myself giving them is to put it on the page, because it's only 800 words. It's a very short story. And things happen in that story that don't necessarily make sense to me as a reader.

And as I explain to them, I'm coming to your story cold. I have no doubt that you know exactly what is happening in this story. I think you can see the full movie running in your head. You have it all up here. But it's not on the page for me. So, you need to make sure, when you do your edit-- editing is important-- you need to make sure that every single thing that a reader needs to make sense of why a character is doing things is actually on that page.

And I suggest to them that one of the best things they can do is to give it to a trusted adult. And if that person asks questions-- and we have to look at this as feedback, not criticism-- always feedback, not criticism-- if that person asks questions or says, 'Why did this character do that?' 'I don't really understand what's happening here.' Then that's your cue to have another look at it and just make it clearer. Make sure that whatever is in your head is on that page so that your reader is getting the story exactly as you intend from what's happening in your brain.

JADE ARNOLD: That's a wonderful advice. And I think, having taught in a high school for my entire teaching career, very, very timely advice as well. The amount of times I've had students give me their draughts of creative writing stories, and I've given them feedback, and they're like, 'Oh, but I thought I was done.' And you're like, 'I mean, it's a good start. But no author finishes in their first run. You need to edit.' They're like, 'Oh, but I thought I could just be finished now.'

ALLISON TAIT: No, editing-- unfortunately, it's something that we all discover as writers the hard way. And that is that editing is actually writing. It's part of the process. It's not like some add-on thing that you can leave off if you want to. It's all part of the integral process.

JADE ARNOLD: Even the best writers in the world have to go back and edit. No one has the perfect story in the first draft.

ALLISON TAIT: No, they do not.

[laughter]

Take it from me, people. They do not, especially if they're writing 60,000 words, and they have no idea what they're doing. Yes, that's exactly right.

JADE ARNOLD: I wanted to ask, Allison, is there anything that you are currently working on? And if you are, are you allowed to give us a little sneak peek?

ALLISON TAIT: Well, I am currently working on something entirely new. But I can't talk to you about that yet. But I can tell you that I do have a second new novel this year. It's very exciting, 2 in one year for me. It's called 'Danger Road'. And it's a fast-paced mystery thriller for readers aged 10 to 14. And it is, I think, for me, the culmination of a lifetime of reading crime novels. I think it is, absolutely.

It was such a joy to write this book. It was not always easy. But it was an absolute joy to write it because I was right in my sweet spot of exactly what I love to read, even though I had to write it for middle grade readers. So, I'm ageing it down. But it has all the hallmarks of what I love reading in crime novels as an adult. And I don't think I could have written this book 10 years ago. I don't think I could have written it when I wrote 'The Mapmaker Chronicles'. So, the fact that I have been able to write it now is just an absolute joy for me to do. So, shall I tell you a little bit about it? Do you want me to give you the blurb?

JADE ARNOLD: I would love for you to tell us a bit about it.

ALLISON TAIT: OK. One podcast, 2 brothers, a hit-and-run cold case. Who killed Corey Armstrong? 25 years ago, on a dark winter's night, teenager Corey Armstrong was left to die by a hit-and-run driver on Danger Road. Now Corey is the subject of a podcast that's putting his hometown on the map. But with the series almost over, the case remains unsolved.

When brothers Alex and Leo decide to try to find out what happened to Corey, they uncover old secrets, learning more about Corey and people close to home than they could ever have imagined. But could bringing a cold case back to life prove fatal? Find out in 'Danger Road', a full-throttle mystery that will grip you till the very end.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, I can't wait to get my hands on that. That sounds wonderful.

ALLISON TAIT: It's very, very fun. The 2 brothers are 13 and 14. They're very close together in age. And it is 2 first-person point of view. So, you get Alex's perspective, and you get Leo's perspective. And it was challenging, but it was a huge amount of fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. And that's coming out later this year. Do you know the exact date?

ALLISON TAIT: First of July, that one will be available.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, that will have to go into our calendars. And I can't wait. Are there any middle grade or junior fiction titles you think our listeners need to know about right now?

ALLISON TAIT: There's a couple. So, what I'm reading right now is 'The Girl and the Ghost', which is the first book in a new series from Jacqueline Harvey. And I'm actually preparing for an interview with Jacqueline. So, this is the great joy of the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast. So, not only do I get all these great books to read-- I mean, it's supposed to be a 10-minute interview. But I don't think I've ever managed to do a 10-minute interview yet. So, I'm going to be able to dive into that with Jacqueline. And I'm very much looking forward to that. We are great friends. And I very much enjoy chatting to her about writing. She's an absolute superstar.

And then I also very much want to recommend a book I read recently and did chat about on the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast. It's called 'Spirit of the Crocodile'. It's by Aaron Fa'aoso and Michelle Scott Tucker with Lyn White. And it is a middle grade novel about Ezra, who is an ordinary boy who lives on-- I'm not sure how to pronounce this, but I think it's Saibai, an extraordinary Australian island. It's up in the Torres Strait Islands.

And he is this great, cheeky character. And he loves a dare. But when one of his dares goes wrong, he realises he needs to make a few decisions about helping out and measuring up. It's this great growing up, coming-of-age sort of story, which obviously is in the feel for me of my Willow Bright area. But it's got this great adventure aspect to it as well, because the island is being threatened by climate disasters. And there is a huge out-of-season storm at the heart of this book.

And it puts you right into the middle of the challenge that is being faced by some of these islanders. And it really gives you an insight into life in these islands. But it's also just a fantastic story. And it's got this great adventure in the middle of it. And I just really think it's a great story.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds wonderful. And we'll include those in our show notes as well. Last question I have for you, Allison. What are you reading currently, or what are you excited to dive into next?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, gosh. Well, as I said, I'm reading 'The Girl and the Ghost' because I need to get that done for a podcast interview. And then I think next on my to-be-read pile-- this is the difficulty with 'Your Kid's Next Read'. If I could show you my to-be-read pile, it is absolutely huge. So, to be honest with you, I can't answer what my next read is going to be. I can only give you my current and a recommended.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: That is totally fine. Allison, thank you so much for chatting with me today. I have absolutely no doubt that our listeners will be inspired to revisit some of your classics, pick up some of your latest titles for their young readers, and help them complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge and possibly embark on their own writing journeys, as well as check out Your Kid's Next Read community if they haven't done so already.

ALLISON TAIT: Well, thank you very much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to chat about all of the various things with you. There's not too many places where I get to talk about every aspect of my daily life. So, thanks for that.

JADE ARNOLD: You are so welcome. And thank you again for joining. For everyone tuning in, we've included a list of all of Allison's featured books, as well as the titles we mentioned in today's episode, in the show notes on the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' page. Be sure to check it out and share it with the young readers in your life. And most importantly, happy reading.

ALLISON TAIT: Happy reading!

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit Premier'sReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.