[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ the Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways, and skies where we listen, read and learn. From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in.

[page turning]

JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 13 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by Elisabeth, who is a teacher librarian and the Premier's Reading Challenge coordinator at a high school in the Newcastle region. Elisabeth is well known throughout the teacher librarian community for her stunning library displays and research-driven library resources and programs, including the SMART-ER reading program, which she has presented about at numerous conferences. Elisabeth, thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm great. Thanks, Jade. I'm a huge PRC advocate and a pretty big fan of this podcast. So, I am positively thrilled to be here chatting with you today.

JADE ARNOLD: I'm super excited to have you here. Before we dive into our interview, I thought it would be nice to play a quick little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options and you need to choose one of them.

Feel free to defend your choices, if you wish, or you can just stand on your answer. Totally up to you. Are you ready?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I am.

JADE ARNOLD: OK, series or standalone.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Series. All the way. I feel like the enjoyment of dipping back into the world is what draws me in. Although, the book hangover after a series, I feel like, is more intense than a standalone. But I'm there for it.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Physical book or ebook?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Physical, and I'm a snob, book snob. I go hard covers. So, I often buy a paperback, and if I love it, I'll get the hardback. I love the feel of it, the weight of it.

JADE ARNOLD: Your collector's trophy.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: [sighs] 100%. That's me.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Reading in silence or reading with background noise?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: It doesn't really matter. But I always find that I'm happy to sit in a cafe and hear the world around me, but be lost in it.

JADE ARNOLD: Some nice, soft background noise. Yeah. Bookstore or library?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm a big bookstore fan, like, huge. But that's because of all the fanfare that goes along with it, but also why I try to make my libraries as fun and engaging as possible.

JADE ARNOLD: They're very parallel spaces, aren't they?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Sorry, libraries.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Judging a book by its cover, yes or no?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely guilty.

[Jade laughing]

That's me. Everyone loves a good cover, and sprayed edges, and all of those things. I can't help it.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely, a special edition, especially if you're a hard cover collector.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yep, guilty. That's me.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. All right, let's get into the rest of our questions now. So, Elisabeth, I know you started out your career as a PDHPE teacher. What was it that led you to become a teacher librarian?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes. So, I always preface when I do talks a funny story about being a PE teacher, which I know we just talked about, because we're here in microphone in a room. And I tend to suffer from outside voice in the inside. [laughs]

And so, I preface that always. So, feel free to turn me down. So, I started my PE career and did a lot of work outside of PE. I got work in whatever KLA was available, and then found it really hard to get permanent employment as a PE teacher. And it became pretty clear that I was going to have to do something else, either different or retrain.

So, I went and did a master's in journalism and almost finished that degree, and then was like, 'Hmm, maybe it's not going to be a choice for me because of the information landscape,' and there was lots of 'are people going to read books or magazines or newspapers anymore?'

And so, then I thought, 'OK, we've got to do something else.' As an avid reader as a child, and someone who dabbled in writing as a kid, too, I thought, 'What could I do with my skills?'

Lots of jobs on the job feed for TLs back in 2018, 2017. And I thought, 'Yes, this is what I'm going to do,' and I did. I went and did my master's in education, in teacher librarianship, and totally the right choice for me. I love it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's amazing. And I think you're in good company, in terms of using your outside voice. Not a PE teacher, but definitely have been shushed in my own library on multiple occasions. So, I think there's a lot of TLs out there with good PE voices.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Now as I mentioned earlier, you're also the PRC coordinator at your school. Why do you choose to run this program?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: OK, I'm going to quote the PRC here, and I hope I'm going to do it correctly. So, the PRC obviously encourages students to read more books more often. So, that alone is a fantastic motivator.

The PRC challenge list also showcases a really terrific array of books featuring characters and stories from all walks of life. So, challenging students to read from this list means that students are also nurtured to read more diversely. So, that's another reason.

The challenge is also designed to celebrate student success. And I don't really know anyone that doesn't thrive on intrinsic or extrinsic motivation. So, I think the PRC does that nicely.

That's another one. And as a TL, I guess our charge is to encourage and develop lifelong readers. And it doesn't hurt to have a prestigious statewide initiative as my firm ally in this quest.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. Well, that's a lovely reason, and thank you so much for sharing that. Now something that's really closely aligned with the way that you run the PRC at your school is your SMART-ER reading program, which is a program that you've designed and is heavily informed by research. Can you tell us a bit about this program and what impact it's had on your students?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Super passionate about the reading program that I run, and I do affectionately call it the SMART-ER reading program, which will make sense as to why in a little bit, if you don't know anything about it. The program itself centres on student voice and choice, and fosters student agency through student-driven SMART goals. See there? See what I did?

So, the goals really form the foundation for the program and help to ensure that all students really are on an even playing field. A lot of high school students, particularly, are quite nervous about their reading ability. And so, this really doesn't focus on ability. It focuses on reader identity.

And that's one thing that I really like about the program and one of the reasons why I've taken that perspective on it, I guess. The goals are also a really nice way for me to chat with students about their reading journey and their reading identity. And so, it's a nice conversation in with the kids.

So, that is another reason why, I guess, I make those a springboard for the program. The ER part of the program focuses on evaluation and positive reinforcement. Students get personalised reading feedback from me.

I try to do it twice a term, in written form, and sometimes also in verbal form. And again, we chat about progress towards those SMART goals, and what they're enjoying, and all of those kinds of things. So, yeah, that's my program. I'm super passionate about it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's wonderful. And just for those listeners who may not be aware of what SMART goals are, that stands for specific, measurable, achievable, timely and relevant.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah, relevance to you. And it's the relevance part. That's the part that I'm most interested in, because when the students write down what their goals are, they write why. And that's the part I tell students I'm most fascinated about.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Yeah. And I think this reminds me a lot of the things that I would do when I was introducing the PRC to students at my school, back when I was in a high school setting. It wasn't as well worded, or explained to students, but it was always to set a specific, measurable goal that was realistic for them to achieve.

So, I would have some students say that 'I want to read 50 books this year.' And for them, that might be super achievable. But then there'd be other students in that class who would-- their specific goal would be, 'I want to read and finish 2 books that I actually enjoy this year, because I haven't read a book since Year 5' or 'Year 6' or whatever.

And having those very specific goals tailored to each student really is a good way to set that framework of saying, 'I don't think that you have to complete the Premier's Reading Challenge, or be as good of a reader, or as wide of a reader as every other student in this class. Your challenge is where you're at. So, choose something that will stretch you beyond what you're already doing, but is also still achievable.' Is that the types of goals you see students setting in your program?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: 100%. And one of the most popular goals that students create is just reading for enjoyment. And we talk about, well, how do we make that measurable? And so, one of the things these students do is a star rating.

So we say, if we rate this book a 4 or 5 stars out of 5, that's a good way to measure your enjoyment. And that's what we use. Yeah, you're right. You're on the money there. You could be my reading wingman.

[Jade laughs]

Wingwoman, even.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I think just having that framework to base it off and using that real specific language is just such a good structure for teenagers in particular. But even for younger readers in a primary setting, to just have that knowledge that their teacher librarian doesn't expect them to read exactly the same amount of books as they do, or the person sitting next to them. It's about what they, as an individual reader, are going to get out of this, and also challenging them to extend themselves and to improve their reading skills, whilst also having a good time while doing it, which is what we really want to see with our readers.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: What advice would you give to someone who is coordinating the PRC for the first time?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Over the years, I have discovered that organisation, capitalise that, is key. I personally like to use paper logs as a method to the madness. All of my students keep book trails, that's what I call them, in paper form.

It's a great way to measure their progress towards their individual SMART goals, but also a really good way for me just to quickly jot down where they're at, especially because I like to give students the greatest opportunity to achieve the challenge. And because you can start reading for the next year when the challenge closes, we can actually, I want to say, get a head start. It's not. Like I said, I want to give my kids the opportunity to succeed.

So, we start recording those books in Term 4 for the following year. And the paper logs is how I do that effectively. So, that's one suggestion, I guess, I would give others.

The other is keeping note of key dates and log as you go, because Term 2 and Term 3 are quite manic in the teacher world. Like, Book Week and National Simultaneous Storytime and all of those things.

JADE ARNOLD: Everything's happening all at once.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Hmm, and then, before you know it, the PRC closes. And yeah, it's quite stressful. So, keep note of key dates and log as you go.

The last one I think I'd probably talk about is the displays. Displays really, personally, in a high school setting, even a high school setting, helped promote the challenge and celebrate student achievement. And I always tried-- I find a way to make them interactive.

That, to me, helps to draw kids in. They like to see their name, or something that they've added, something like that. And maybe just one more, the labelling-- the books in the library with PRC stickers. That's really helpful.

JADE ARNOLD: As a just really quick way, particularly for those students who-- they're so close to hitting that goal and it's maybe a month before the challenge closes. And they're just like, 'I just need to read one or 2 more books.' And having that visual selection cue where they can go and go, 'OK, I'm going to pick all the books with that PRC tag, pull them off, and see if they're the types of books that I want to read,' and definitely speeds up that process.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. And most students choose to read and browse in person. So, it's that one less hurdle, I guess.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all of the library catalogue is fantastic. But so often, I found, that students love having that tactile experience of picking up a book, looking at the blurb, but then also flicking through, seeing how big the book is, seeing what the typeface is like.

All those decisions go into whether or not they want to take that book home. And so, I always had a pretty significant percentage of students who would exclusively go through and reserve books through the Oliver library catalogue, but a bigger proportion of students would prefer to browse physically. So, having both options, there is definitely a good one.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I agree. And we do have an OPAC at our school and hardly anyone uses it. It's definitely in person.

JADE ARNOLD: I just want to come back to something that you talked about in that last question where you're talking about your displays and your interactive displays. I happen to have seen photos on your social media about your latest display related to the Premier's Reading Challenge.

Can you tell us a little bit about it? And I know that this is a fun challenge when we're in an audio medium. But can you tell us about your display that you're using this year for the Premier's Reading Challenge?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. So, I'm going to stipulate the fact that my idea is a springboard off your idea, which is to create-- if you haven't had a look yet on the PRC website, or on the PRC Instagram page, there are these mini books that you can create. So, definitely check that out.

Mine is a larger version of that. So, I've taken some larger books and folded the pages in such a way that the books remain open in some sort of accordion-like fashion. I've then strung them up with fishing wire, literally fishing wire from the ceiling, so that they're upside down and they mimic the incredible artwork by Matt Ottley in his little book, 'Jellyfish'. I think that's what we're all calling them.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. That's what he calls them, too.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Good. OK, excellent. We're all using the same lingo. And the idea is that as every student finishes the challenge, they're going to be invited to create a tentacle that hangs from the book to give it a personalised touch to add to this installation.

I do like to do these immersive displays. And they'll hang from the books. My hint to anyone who's followed me is to attach them with paperclips, because I am maybe a perfectionist and I like to have absolute control over how things look.

And so, I want to be able to move them and have the flexibility of that being fluid. So, that's what I'm doing. I'm super excited about that. And the challenge for my students is to make the tentacles sustainable.

I'm huge on sustainable displays. I like to-- again, if you've seen some of my displays, I like to create things out of cardboard, or things that are just going to end up in the trash, or upcycle things. So, the challenge is make them sustainable.

We've been donated a huge amount of yarn. And my library SAO is quite crochet savvy and has figured out a way to make these amazing, twirly, crocheted tentacles. And I've tried it, too. It's not that difficult. But anyways, we're going to challenge students to even do that if they want to do something a bit different. But yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's wonderful, and such a great initiative, and a really good way to get students engaged in your library. And every time they come back in, they see how the space has changed slightly. And just seeing that progress over time, I think, is a really good way to motivate students who might be, in the back of their mind, thinking, 'Yeah, I'm going to do the Premier's Reading Challenge.'

But every time they come in, and seeing that going, 'Oh, that's right,' it's that visual reminder of 'I want to be part of that, I want to see myself involved in that display.' Especially in a high school setting, I think it's a really good way to avoid that embarrassment that teenagers often get for seeing their name in the limelight.

I remember the first year I did the Premier's Reading Challenge, I had what was called the Hall of Fame, where I had these Hollywood stars. And each would be a Hollywood-style star that would go up on the wall with the student's name on it.

And some students really did dig it. But also, I did hear it being referred to as the Wall of Lame by a few other students. And I was just like, 'OK, I need to remember that this is a high school context and maybe change up how I'm doing this,' because I've got to be realistic here. Teenagers are going to act that way. So, 'How can I make sure that I still have their names acknowledged in a way that makes it feel a little less cringe, I guess, for teenagers?'

And that's what pushed me to do a book tree before, where, similar to your jellyfish idea, where I'd have a tree drawn on these glass walls that I had in the library. As every student finished the PRC, they would get a leaf. And the leaf would have their name on it, but it was much, much smaller, much harder to see unless you went really, really close up. But each leaf had a different colour that corresponded with each class.

So, at a glance, you could see which class was ahead. The students got to put the leaf up themselves. They got to choose where it went. And it was much more well received by students than the Hall of Lame, I guess.

And then the other one that I've done, which is now a resource on the PRC website, is the bookshelf. And again, in a library, having a bookshelf grow over time with books that are-- with student's name on it-- also generally makes that a lot more palatable for high school students. So, yeah, if you're out there thinking of doing a similar idea with your display, I would maybe avoid doing a Hall of Fame with teenagers.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I think I would be devastated if someone said that.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Look, it was a learning moment, right? We all have them. [laughs] Look, teenagers can be--

ELISABETH DUBOIS: They can be so mean.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, but they can also be absolutely wonderful. And those same students who called it the Hall of Lame ended up doing it the next year and ended up having their leaves put on the tree without complaint. So growth, progress.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes, yes, absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: What are some of the things that you try to prioritise in your school library to make reading accessible and engaging and interesting for your students?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: So, I guess the first thing I try to do, and I guess we all try to do, is normalise reading. Everyone is a reader. I'm really big on that. So, I use the term 'reader identity' a lot.

And I always talk about us going on a reading journey, and so, trying to break that stigma of reading being a negative thing, that's something I really try to focus on. So, I guess in terms of increasing accessibility to books, no loan limits.

I don't have a loan limit. A lot of kids come to my high school and say, 'What is the most amount of books I can take home?' And I say, 'You know, you could take a box home.'

We go into the print room and we grab a reflex box, and we fill feel that bad boy up. I literally have kids that do that every holiday. It makes me so happy.

So, no loan limits increase accessibility through student-driven acquisition. The library is for them to read from, so let's make it about them. Let them choose.

Obviously, the reading program is a great way to increase student access to books. What was the next one? Engagement.

Reading events and initiatives just like this one makes it meaningful. Reading response activities that draw on creative literacies, that's something I've been doing in the last couple of years, and makes reading more meaningful and fun.

Reading milestone resources that I've created. They have been super engaging, too. I'll explain what it is, because I know what I'm talking about, but you don't.

So, last year, I did it through a book bingo-type style resource where each of the little tiles had a reading milestone written into it. So, the first one was like, 'I wrote my SMART goal for this year,' which you get a stamp for that.

One other one might be 'I read my first 100 pages.' And so, what I did find was that students started ticking off the bingo card themselves and were actively trying to achieve things. And some kids are like, 'Well, I think I might just do one line.'

But then when they did one line in, let's say, Term 1, they were like, 'Hmm, what else can I do?' So, that's another way that I've been working towards increasing engagement. And the last one-- making reading interesting with displays, which we've talked about.

I'm big on sharing what I'm reading a lot. I do it all the time in conferences, or even I'm just talking at a staff meeting. This is what I'm currently reading and my reading goal. That's important to share that I also have a goal.

My 'must read' posters, I do those twice a year for the first 6 months of the year and the second 6 months. I put them on the circulation desk. And as kids are waiting in line to speak to me, or if kids come with friends a lot, I call them their bodyguards.

But the bodyguards often check out the 'must read' posters and this generates conversation and interest. So, yeah, that's something else that I do.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. With your 'must reads' poster, what goes into selecting what books go onto those posters?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Hmm, that's a good question, because obviously, I haven't read them. So, I should stipulate they're books that are being released in the year ahead, so I haven't read them. I do read a lot of reviews.

I scour a lot of online bookstores to see what's coming out. I then go onto Goodreads and see if anyone has read an advanced reader copy, and has some great things to say about it. Obviously, if the author's written some great things before, we can certainly assume that this one is going to be amazing, too. But yeah, so, there's some of the ways that I go about it, compiling these lists. I make big lists, and then I just chop them down a bit.

And diversity. In the past, I kind of stuck to novels. But the last few have been quite diverse, and I try to put in some graphics, or bios, even, to cater for all my readers.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and just generate some excitement about what's coming out and reflecting the fact that there's going to be new releases throughout the year in the library. Come back and check them out in June, July, August, whatever month it is that they're coming out. That's a fantastic way to remind students to keep coming back to your library, that it is a changing collection, and it's always growing.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes, absolutely. And also, for me personally, it's great to know how many books I should buy.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Because if I have 5 kids waiting for a book, or saying they want to put their name down on the reservation list, then I need more than one copy.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. That's a really good collection development tool as well.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: What is your role look like as a teacher librarian beyond the Premier's Reading Challenge?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: The role of the TL varies from school to school. And so, I try to think that I work really hard at accessing all parts of this role, because I know, at the end of the day, staff at the school are always changing. They're going to leave with, hopefully, a solid understanding, which I'll get to that in a minute, of what I do, and then hopefully be a teacher librarian advocate at their new school, if there isn't one there.

So, obviously, we've talked about developing a collection that reflects the needs and interests of the school community. That's pretty pivotal. Developing a reading culture, which I do through being a reading coordinator at my school.

That's significant. We want kids to leave school and continue to be avid readers and engage with reading. Research is, I guess, a natural part of my role, navigating the physical and the digital landscape, looking at intellectual property, which is really important right now, particularly in light of AI and the landscape, the changing landscape, referencing, source quality, all of that kind of stuff.

I'm also a DE coordinator at my school. Last year, I had 18 students. This year, I have slightly less than that. But that takes a lot of organisation and my time.

Study skills, which a lot of kids come to the library. No one gets taught how to study. So, I've spent a little bit of time researching study skills, specifically looking at designing effective study notes and then using them effectively.

So, I kind of teach it in 2 ways. Tech support. We always have to be across technology and provide that tech support. Collaboration with staff. I try to do that as much as possible to create and deliver lessons.

And then one of my favourite things is creating digital artefacts. I like to do that to increase student access to resources, whether that be physical or digital. But yeah, I guess that's just a little bit. There's probably 1,000 other things, but off the top of my head.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's a very multifaceted role. And as you said, it varies depending on what, often, your school needs, and what the resources at your school are. But I think you've hit a lot of the core elements on the head there.

And I think one of the things that has stood out to me, in terms of the work of yours that I've seen, is just those resources that you've put together that help both with senior research skills and senior study skills. Like your CAARP or your C-R-A-P scaffolds that are designed to walk students through how to analyse a resource and trust whether or not it's worth taking information from. Fantastic ways at growing students' abilities to find information that's really relevant in a landscape that is awash with information.

And also digest it, and be able to make it useful for them in whatever project they're taking on. So, those are fantastic resources, and such a critical role that the teacher librarian plays within a school. One of the key aims of this podcast is to assist teacher librarians, teachers or parents in helping their students or children find their first, or their next good read, because it is often, as you would know, so overwhelming for students when they're standing in between the bookshelves and trying to figure out what they want to read next. As a teacher librarian, how is it that you go about connecting your students with their next great read?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I always joke about with students that-- I think maybe all TLs do. This may be just not a me thing, but that's my superpower. I'm a bit of a reading matchmaker. I make joke of that.

Other than the 'must read' posters and things like that we've already discussed, this year I've created personalised reading recs. There's a reader identity form in students' reading logs, and it literally says, 'Mrs Dubois recommends' on the bottom of it.

And then, over the course of this year-- it'll take me the entire year, because I've got close to 400 students in the program-- I look at their book trails and I draw back on conversations I've had with them, and I write them personalised recs. So, that's a new thing.

JADE ARNOLD: That's phenomenal, but I imagine incredibly time consuming.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Oh, look. The whole thing's time consuming. But the enjoyment, I mean, watching them uncover new books from the recommendations and opening up new conversations with a student has been super powerful in developing that rapport, and, yeah, just getting them to read something different. So, that's what I'm trying this year on top of everything else. And it's kind of fun. But it is-- you're right. It does take a lot of time.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. But I think there's nothing more satisfying, as a teacher librarian, than making a recommendation for a student, and having them try it out, and come back to you and say, 'This was amazing, thank you so much,' or 'What's the next book to read? I loved this one so much.' There's something so fulfilling out of that, especially when that student may have previously said to you that they're 'not a big reader', or they 'don't really like reading'. You're like, 'yes.'

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Oh, it's a win. Yeah, that connection that-- we live for that. I think all teachers live for that moment.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Now I think every teacher librarian has encountered a student who doesn't enjoy reading. What are some of the strategies that you use with students who don't see themselves as readers?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: So, I think the first thing I do is we don't talk about books. We talk about them individually. So, I often say-- well, let's just call this student Max.

'Oh, that's OK, Max. You know what? I'm going to tell you a little secret. I don't like reading everything too. I don't like reading biographies.' And usually kids are quite horrified to know that I'm open about that kind of stuff, that yeah, I don't like reading bios, also don't like reading sad stories. So, I just don't read them.

So, firstly, it just means you haven't found the right book yet. Right? And then we go into, 'So, what is it that you do like to do? Let's talk about that stuff.'

So, we look at hobbies and interests, TV shows and movies, and we talk about that. And I'll use that as a springboard. So, this student said, 'I just like to play football. I wanna be a football player.'

And I was like, 'Cool. Let's use that.' And so, I was like, 'Well, if we had to read, what would be something that you would read? Would you read facts? Like, do you want to know more about football, or tactics, or skills,' and they're like, 'No, I'm pretty good at that.'

'Mkay. That's cool. I see you. I see you. What about stories about football? Would you like to know--?'

'Yeah, OK. We could do that.'

'Cool. What about true stories or made up ones?'

So, we go down this little path. And we went over to their fiction selection first, that part of the collection, and I pulled a few books from the shelf.

I want to say 'Rugby Warrior' is the go-to for me by Gerard Siggins. That book, I believe, was written by someone who wanted to do just that, is engage disengaged readers. Billy Slater books, we'll go and have a look at those.

Essentially any rugby book I could possibly find, and we did that. You have a little look. He wasn't vibing those either.

'OK, Max, how about we look at the bios?'

Hmm. So, we went over to the bios and I pulled out JT's bio, the YA edition. Ah, interested, but was a little taken aback by the size of the book. So, then I thought to myself that on this shelf, I've got 'Rise: The Sam Thaiday Story'.

I hope it's called that. It's not that thick. And then the student was looking at the book. And he goes, 'You know, Sam Thaiday and I, our family comes from the same town.' He goes, 'Did you know that?' And I was like, [chuckles] 'Max, if I knew that, we would have started off right here, my friend.'

[laughter]

I didn't, but this is amazing, right? This is that moment you're talking about. I was like, 'I think I'm on to a winner.'

JADE ARNOLD: You found the connection.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: And yeah. He sat down. We did 10 minutes of sustained silent reading and he was engaged. He was doing all of those things that we look for when a kid is reading. Was actually reading, not just flicking through the pages.

And I thought to myself, 'I think we've made a good match here.' So, that's kind of where I go. For anyone else that's really picky, I just put them in front of a computer and I say, 'Find a book you will want to read, within reason.' But I'll get it and put it in the collection.

And so, that's another strategy I do use, and it works 99% of the time. And for that last 1%, audiobooks. Audiobooks are amazing, especially all the new ones.

The authors have this incredible ability to narrate the story and take on all these different characters, and you become completely immersed in the world. So, I drive quite a ways to work, and I'm constantly listening to audiobooks.

And any time I come across one that's amazing, where the author is amazing, like the one who does the 'Nevermoor' series. So, shout out to that, if you wanted to listen to it.

Yes, audiobooks is the last one, and that's my last resort. I don't usually have to be there very often. But if I do need to use that as a strategy, it's definitely in my tool belt.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Wonderful. I think you've touched on a lot of things that will resonate with a lot of both primary and high school teacher librarians. I have worked in both selective schools and comprehensive schools. And one of the things that surprised me about that switch is how many students at both types of schools just don't enjoy reading.

You make that assumption that if you're at a selective school, students will enjoy reading more, and that's not necessarily the case. So, having those strategies under your belt that you've discussed is really important, regardless of what school you're working at, because, unless you're incredibly lucky, any school that you work at as a teacher librarians, you're going to encounter students who don't see themselves as readers.

But approaching those students with that really positive mindset of, 'OK, well, you think you're not a reader.' But actually, no, it's just a case of 'you haven't found the book that's right for you yet, let's work together on this journey,' and helping them through that journey to find the titles that they will actually really enjoy, and be able to see themselves as readers. For that student who's reading football-inspired stories, he probably wouldn't have seen himself as someone who was a reader before those moments, but then, actually, getting into those titles and finding a lot of enjoyment in that is so important.

And that comes from that positive attitude and that persistence on both the teacher librarian's and the student's end. It's effort that needs to be put in on both ends. But it's a really important and empowering conversation to have. What guides your book selection when you're developing your collection?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: So, I was actually given the incredible opportunity to develop a collection from scratch and I learnt a lot from that. So, I guess the first part is literary staples. All of those books that are timeless classics and modern classics, like 'The Hunger Games', all of those books. That's kind of my first one. If it exists on the top 100 YA or children list, it's probably going to be in the library.

Reviews, which we've talked about a bit, I do like to rely on those. And I rely on them heavily to make book selections. I can't read everything. That's what I say to students.

But I do try to read as much as I can, because even though it's got a great review, sometimes the subject matter may be a little too mature. In bookshops, I've noticed a lot of people putting books on the shelves that are not children's or YA, and I pick them up thinking, 'Ooh, this looks good,' and then I read it and go, 'Ooh, this was misplaced.'

JADE ARNOLD: I think there is-- particularly in fantasy, there's a lot of either confusion or crossover, or maybe it's a deliberate marketing attempt where you'll find what I would consider, and what you would probably consider to be new adult fiction sitting in the young adult fiction section. So, new adult fiction being targeted at readers who are 18 plus starting to delve into more mature themes.

Maybe it is a little bit spicy, or even just looking at an older protagonist going through different types of experiences. But yeah, there's been a number of times where I've also seen that, and I have to bite my tongue to go up to the bookshop staff and say, 'Hey, I don't think this is actually a YA title.'

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm audible in that respect. I will say out loud, for anyone to hear, 'This book doesn't quite belong here.' But yeah. So, I do try to read. And if a book is very popular, I will read it to see what all the drama is about.

And I have uncovered some amazing reads through that process, but also, I use the term 'saucy' read. So, if a book has lots of requests on it, or is being read quite widely, and in some element of excitement, which I'm all about, I kind of question why and I read it.

So, patron-driven acquisition is something else that I've spoken about and I use, in terms of developing my collection. Curriculum mapping, which-- it's amazing, but it's time consuming. The reading program.

Lots of kids bring books from home and I always leaf through them. I have a little look. I read their logs. I'm like, 'This one looks good. I should totally get that.'

That's something else. The reading program is great for collection, development. And diversity. I try really hard, well, one, to read diversely myself, but to ensure that the collection really does reflect a huge selection, or a cross-section of students.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Reflecting your student diversity and also reflecting the diversity that we see in the Australian population. It's so important for students to be able to see themselves in the books that they're reading, and also see the lives of others in the books that they read.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah, absolutely. And we've come quite a long way in that representation in books. I know that when I was a kid reading, this might show my age, but I read a lot of 'Sweet Valley', Francine Pascal.

And it was all kind of the same kind of stuff. And whilst it was great for me, I can see that it wouldn't have been great for everyone. And quite mature in content, too, in retrospect.

But that was all that was available at the time. But now we've got a huge cross section of books. So, I do try very hard to, yeah, develop across a whole spectrum.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. What are some of your library's most popular books, and why is it, do you think, that they resonate with your students?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Last year, surprisingly-- I say 'surprisingly', because if you know this series intimately, you may be surprised. 'Keeper of the Lost Cities' was the most popular series.

Those books are really thick. As you get into the book 5, 6, 7, you're talking about 200,000 words in one of those books. And book thickness is one of the biggest deterrents. When I show students books, they zero in on the thickness of that book, and straight away I know I've lost them.

Whereas this series is lengthy and long. It's like 11 books long. And the only reason why that book was popular is because students were reading it and recommending it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. And I saw the exact same phenomenon at my last school library when I started there. I hadn't heard of the series and I had this young girl ask constantly, 'Is it in yet? Is it in yet? I've put a request in,' and I'm like, 'Yeah, yeah, OK. I've got the first one. We'll see how it goes.' Seven kids reserved it within the first week. I'm like, 'Oh my gosh. I have to buy the rest of the series now.' It's a long series and it takes up almost half a bookshelf.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: But that shelf was never full because it was in constant rotation. And these students would be coming in saying, 'Oh, which student's got it now? OK, I'm going to go ask her where she's up to and remind her she's only got a week left so that she better return it on time, because I'm next on the list.' It was this phenomenon. But yeah, so, obviously very popular in your library, too.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. And yeah, you've hit all the points there that I would have touched on myself. That is, the biggest motivator for that series was student recs. I don't think if I alone was recommending it, it would have been anywhere near as popular.

But yeah, kids have the power here. Same with 'Powerless' series. I don't if you've read 'Powerless' by Lauren Roberts.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I haven't read the whole series. I just read book one. Again, it was another one of those books that everyone was, is, reading in my library. And I was like, 'Mm-hmm. Let's have a little look at this one.' And it wasn't saucy at all, which I was really happily surprised to find.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, because from-- coming back to judging a book by its cover, just the cover illustration is very similar to other types of books that often contain that spice, or that sauce in it.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: Aah, may not necessarily be appropriate for younger readers.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. And so, that one was a nice crossover between 'The Hunger Games' and 'Defy the Night' by Brigid Kemmerer. And I can see why that one's popular. Same thing. I think maybe social media may have something to say for its popularity. But also, it's student recommendations.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And if students are reading it and they're enjoying it, and it's ideally appropriate for the age group that's reading it, then great.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah. Yeah, right. Anything by Holly Jackson. I don't know what it is about teens and murder mystery, but they're all about it.

So, Holly Jackson is in high circulation, as well as Jenny Han. Jenny Han's got 3 series. I've got multiple copies of her books on our shelves.

Again, never there because they're always out. And buddy reads, even. Lots of students like to read them together and dissect the plot, which is kind of cool. That's another reason why I like to buy multiple copies of books, because students like to do that. Girls like to do that, I find, personally, in my library, anyway.

JADE ARNOLD: And you've probably touched on a lot of these titles, but in your opinion, what are some of the top must-haves for a high school library?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Like I said, I'm a fan of this podcast, and I thought I might have to do something like this. So, I'm not gonna lie, I've spent a bit of time thinking about it. And I also wanted to maybe try and touch on things that maybe people haven't read, but maybe I've done terribly at that fact.

But I'm going to start with Bridgid Kemmerer, which I did mention before, 'Defy the Night' series. It's a YA fantasy. It's got diverse characters in it. It's set in the kingdom of Kandala.

So, if you're all about kings and queens and kingdoms and such, like I am, then this book is for you. The main character is Tessa. And I think it was written during COVID.

And so, there is some sort of pandemic element in here where people are tragically dying from this awful disease, and Tessa is going around and healing people with her incredible skill that she's got. But it follows her. And like I said, it's got 'Powerless' vibes.

This book, it was written before 'Powerless', though, and I don't want to spoil anything. But it's amazing. Oh, it's a trilogy, and lots of cliffhangers.

And what Bridget is great at is developing characters that you feel connected with. And definitely lots of those characters in this book. Sorry, I've got 2 others.

Vanessa Len's 'Only a Monster' is a fantastic book. Australian author Vanessa Len. The main character, Joan, she discovers that she's a monster. And so, all of a sudden, we know that she's kind of evil.

I mean, I don't want to spoil anything, but she discovers she's a monster and it's not a good thing. Right? And so, she has to grapple with that, that concept that she's probably not a nice person.

It's got time travel in it, which I quite hate. But in this book, it's done so well. And she travels back to 1990, which [chuckles] is pretty amazing. [laughs] 1990 technology, 1990 fashion.

If you want a throwback, this book is definitely for you. I don't want to give away any spoilers, but the third book, 'Once a Villain', comes out later this year in August. So, if you want to get on board, get on board. Get into it so that when August comes around, you can get 3.

The last one is also a trilogy. I don't think I would be doing Lynette Noni any justice if I didn't mention one of her books, 'The Prison Healer'. I love all of Lynette Noni's work, and just about anything-- I mean, everything she's written is amazing.

She's obviously written the 'Akarnae' series, which I hope I've said that correctly. Brilliant. Brilliant series. Again, characters that you really connect with. This is that as well.

'The Prison Healer' features main character Kiva Meridan. She is in a death prison, which is gruesome. And that's where she kind of works there, as well as being a prisoner herself. And we find out over the course of the novel how she ends up there.

But she is charged with keeping the rebel queen alive. She's just arrived, this rebel queen. She's not in a good state. And we follow her.

So, it's amazing. It's great. Actually, the-- book 1 is amazing. I did it as a school book club book for whole school thing at my previous school, and we had 50 staff and students reading it. Incredible. It was really good. So, I'm a huge fan of her.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Those are some fantastic titles. And I'm fairly certain, from memory, that that series was just added to the PRC book list on the 9plus book list. So, fantastic one to pick up for teen readers who are a lover of fantasy and mystery and intrigue. And on a similar note, no podcast would be complete without asking you what you are reading currently or what you're excited to dive into next.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Well, I just finished reading 'Sunrise on the Reaping' by Suzanne Collins. So, if you've been in 'The Hunger Games' world, you know what you're signing yourself up for when you read these books. Right? Heartbreak, just be crushed.

And so, I knew what I was getting myself into, but also I didn't. I wasn't prepared for it. And I divulged earlier that I don't like sad books, so this was gut wrenching.

Amazing, though. I read it when another student was reading it as well. And she was ahead of me. We were able to debrief daily and as a TL, this is amazing. I live for these moments, too.

And she would just give me tidbits and insightful thoughts, too. I'm just in awe of her. She's a great reader. So, I just finished that and it was amazing.

I'm about to crack open 'Ice Apprentices' by Jacob North. It's a debut novel. It's a middle grade fantasy. I hear there's some sort of magic school in it too, high school of some sort.

I'm excited for it, because, again, I'm trying to read more books by male authors that feature male protagonists. I'm hoping this one is going to be a winner. I'm sure it will be.

Also excited to read 'Silverborn' by Jessica Townsend. I think everyone is. We've been waiting a very long time.

JADE ARNOLD: A very long time.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Aw, I'm pretty pumped about that. And hello, Lynette Noni. She has a new novel. A romance.

JADE ARNOLD: A romance novel, right? Yeah.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes. 'Wandering Wild'. And I'm going to wait till I go to the US to buy a hardback copy. I spied on her Instagram that there is one available in the US. But no doubt I'll purchase a paperback and then it will be shelved with all the other amazing titles by her.

Yeah. So, that's what I've read and what I'm excited to read. What about yourself?

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, OK. Well, I obviously am about to dive into 'Sunrise on the Reaping'. I am part way through 'Unhallowed Halls' by Lili Wilkinson, her latest dark academia fantasy title, which is-- it's very vibey at the moment. It's set in the Scottish moors.

It's at this very exclusive boarding school for rich kids who've done wrong things. And there's no technology allowed. And then dark things start happening. So, I'm enjoying that one.

I'm also reading-- I can't remember the name of the title, but I will put it in the show notes, the follow-up to the graphic novel 'Go With the Flow', which I'm really excited to get into.

I'm reading 'Villain', which is a middle grade adventure, potentially, series. I don't know. I'm 2 chapters in. Are you picking up that I'm a chaos reader from this?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I love it. I'm also picking up-- that makes me feel good, because I don't remember what I read sometimes, too. And I would have literally just finished it and a student will say, this bit or this character. And I really am like, 'I just read that, but I can't remember.'

And sometimes I think maybe I'm getting old and my memory is not amazing. Yeah, no. I'm feeling you, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And then I am also finishing up the audiobook, I'm almost finished, of 'The Invocations' by Krystal Sutherland, I want to say. Very dark, very gory, but very enjoyable.

And I'm fairly certain there's maybe 2 or 3 others that I have on my bedside table that I dive in between. I've got no idea, other than that. But those ones are what I'm reading currently, or I'm about to read.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm in awe of all of the books on the go. That's not me as a person. I'm 1 Struggle Street otherwise.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, see, I have different parts throughout my house. I've got my reading chair in the lounge room, I've got my couch in my office, which is next to my bookshelves. And I've got my bedside table, and I have to have a book there.

Because if I sit down at any point and I go, 'Oh, I want to read. OK, this is right here.' Whereas if I have to get up and move around the house, I will forget that I'm doing that, and then find myself doing something else, like stripping out my linen closet.

So, that's my reading strategy, have books available all the time. I've got an ebook and an audiobook on my phone. At the moment, I've got 2 audiobooks going at the same time. Don't recommend that.

Can't remember the title of the second one that I'm listening to. But I like to give myself plenty of opportunities to find just a random situation to be reading in.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Amazing. Well, thanks for sharing that with me. I now also--

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] It's the first time I've been asked. I'm like, 'Oh no.'

[laughter]

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm always adding to my TBR. I know yours is probably as crazy as mine. It's just every time I read one, I add about 5. And I've just-- you've just inspired me, Krystal Sutherland. Yeah, you've inspired me to add another one. Yeah, so, thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you so much for joining me today, Elisabeth. I have no doubt that our teacher librarian listeners will have been inspired by your enthusiasm and your deep knowledge, and will take away so many tidbits to incorporate into their own professional practice as a teacher librarian. And for our parents listening, definitely your conversations about how you speak with young adults about their reading is such a great tool for them as well. So, thank you so much for joining me.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Thanks so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

JADE ARNOLD: For all our listeners, we've included a full list of all the featured titles we've discussed today in the show notes on the 'Listen @ the Arts Unit' page. You can use this to help track down titles in your local bookshop, or your school, or local library, and help share them with the young readers in your life. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on 'Between the bookshelves'. Happy reading!

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ the Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish,' composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.