Audio transcript

Between the bookshelves – 15. Remy Lai

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You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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Welcome to episode 15 of 'Between the bookshelves'. Today I'm joined by the brilliant author and illustrator Remy Lai. Remy's graphic novels and illustrated novels are well loved by readers in Australia and around the world and feature prominently on the 5 to 6 Premier's Reading Challenge book lists.

Her middle grade titles have received a host of accolades, including the Best Book of the Year from the School Library Journal, the American Library Association and the Kirkus awards overseas. And back home she's received recognition as a CBCA Notable Book and won both the Victorian Premier's Literary Awards and the Prime Minister's Literary Awards. Remy is also the creator of the 'Surviving the Wild' series, a delightful and educational graphic novel collection for younger readers that feature on the 3 to 4 book lists.

Remy, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

REMY LAI: I'm great. Thanks so much for having me.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, it's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for giving up your time to join us on this podcast. Before we dive into your books today, Remy, I'd like to start off with a little game of this or that, just to get to know you a little bit better. Basically, I will give you 2 options and you have to choose which one you'd prefer. You can justify your answer or you can leave your answer stand on its own. It's totally up to you. Are you ready?

REMY LAI: Let's go.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. Graphic novel or illustrated novel?

REMY LAI: Graphic novel.

JADE ARNOLD: Writing or illustrating?

REMY LAI: Writing.

JADE ARNOLD: Plot twist or slow reveal?

REMY LAI: Plot twist.

JADE ARNOLD: Dogs or cats?

REMY LAI: Dogs.

JADE ARNOLD: Scary ghost or friendly ghost?

REMY LAI: Scary.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh. [laughs] Fantastic.

REMY LAI: That was a very hard game because [laughs] I would answer differently on different days.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: I can imagine so. And I guess it depends on what you're up to as well. But that was a bit of fun. Thank you for joining me in that. Let's jump into the serious questions now. Now, as you'd probably be aware, Remy, one of the key aims of the Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. And with that in mind, we like to do a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch with the authors that we have on this podcast.

So I would like you to imagine that there is a student standing between the bookshelves. Maybe it's their school library. Maybe it's a public library. Maybe it's their local bookshop. And they're in the L section, and they see your titles there on the shelves and you've got to help make them make the decision to take your books home. With that in mind, could you please give us a 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'Chickenpox', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

REMY LAI: Yeah. 'Chickenpox' is a graphic novel. And it's about the older sister of 5 siblings. So she's the oldest one of 5 kids and she is finding that her siblings are really annoying. So when they all get chickenpox, which is not very common nowadays, but when you get it, you have to stay home for a week so that you don't pass it to your friends at school. And so now she and her siblings all catch it and she's stuck at home with them for at least a week. And I don't know whether she can survive it.

JADE ARNOLD: It's absolute torture for her, isn't it?

REMY LAI: It is. And I'm one of 5 kids, too, so that's where the story came from.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And I know that obviously a lot of the characters in this were named or inspired after your own family. And something that I found really interesting and very amusing is that you've written it from the perspective of the older sister and, from her perspective, the character of Remy is a bit of an antagonist. She's always picking fights with her other siblings and she's the difficult one to manage. How hard was it to write this kind of biographical graphic novel from your sister's perspective and not paint yourself in a favourable light?

REMY LAI: It was actually really fun. Usually when you're writing a book and the main character usually would need to grow and have some redeeming qualities, so they cannot be too evil, I want to say. But in this case, actually it was really fun. But I have to say that I'm only able to do it because I'm a grown up now [laughs] because obviously when I was a kid, I found my sisters and my brothers really annoying.

And so I didn't understand a lot of the things that my sisters did or say. And now that I'm older, we are all older, we actually get along a lot better. And when I was growing up, I started to understand why my sister did the things she did. And so I found her less annoying. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Yeah, I think it definitely takes a bit of hindsight and maturity to look back on yourself as a child and go, OK, well, like, I did find them annoying, but there's definitely reasons why they were doing the things that I was doing. And maybe I wasn't perfect all the time either. And I think that's such a-- probably fun experience for you to explore, but I think that's also such a great message for readers as well.

There's a few scenes towards the end where there's this discussion between the siblings and the main characters coming to this realisation that, oh, actually, one of my sisters is much more mature than I thought and I could probably cut her a bit of slack and involve her in certain things a bit more, rather than just taking everything on my own because I think all my siblings are super immature and can't do anything. And that growth there and the sibling dynamics and the conflict between them, I think is probably a really universal thing that happens in any multi-child family. And definitely, I saw a lot of bits of my childhood there as well.

REMY LAI: Yeah. And I think that now that we're not living together, it's easier to like each other. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, you're not inside each other's space all the time, so you don't get as cranky with them. [laughs]

REMY LAI: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: So maybe a good book to read for young readers who might have really annoying siblings and maybe they can get a little bit out of that. [laughs] If our young reader has devoured 'Chickenpox' and they loved it and they found it super amusing and is back 'between the bookshelves' looking for their next great read, what do you think they should try reading next?

REMY LAI: There is another graphic novel that's about siblings. It's called 'Squished' by Megan Lloyd, so that one would be a good one to read.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, fantastic recommendation. And just for our listeners, we'll pop all the books that we talk about, including all of Remy's suggestions, in the show notes so that you can check them at the end. Now, your first foray into the supernatural in terms of your writing was with 'Ghost Book'. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title?

REMY LAI: Yeah. So 'Ghost Book' is about a girl, who-- nobody ever remembers her or remembers her name. But finally, one day, she makes her first friend. But this friend turns out to be a ghost. It's a boy ghost. But actually, he's not really dead. He is kind of stuck in between the worlds of the living and the dead and she is the only one who can save him, bring him back to life. But the only way she can save her friend is to give up her own life. So what will happen? You have to read.

JADE ARNOLD: A lot of high-stakes drama there. Now, this story is set during Hungry Ghost Month. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about Hungry Ghost Month, as well as what it was like to write a story based around it?

REMY LAI: Yeah. Hungry Ghost Month is a Chinese culture festival, so it's about the seventh month on the lunar calendar, where supposedly the gates of the underworld open, and all the ghosts that are usually stuck in the underworld are now free to roam among us for the whole month. And they're not so friendly ghosts, so they're kind of dangerous ghosts.

And it was really fun for me to write about it because I grew up in Singapore, which is a country with a majority of Chinese. So Hungry Ghost Month was sort of just a part of the culture there. So for me, it was just there. It wasn't really something that I had to learn in a sense because it was just there. And it was really fun for me to revisit it. And so because I grew up with it, I didn't really know too many facts about it in a way that you would learn from a textbook or something like that.

So when I was writing the book, I had to do some research and so I actually learned a lot of information that I didn't have before. Some of the things that you grew up with are not exactly the same as what's written on the textbook, I suppose. There are regional differences too.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, there'll be a lot of cultural variations in practice. So it's like this nice little part of your childhood and your culture just taken and turned into this really fun and a little bit creepy graphic novel. The next book of yours that I'd like to talk about is another horror title, called 'Read at Your Own Risk'. This one is a bit spookier, I think, than the previous. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title?

REMY LAI: Yeah. It's about a girl. [laughs] She's writing in her diary. And she has been cursed and she has 8 days to break this curse. And she's been cursed by this evil and this evil now starts talking to her in the pages of her diary. So you would read the conversation between her and the evil. And she has 8 days to break the curse or something terrible really will happen to her.

I would say that this one is-- 'Ghost Book', some people say it's horror, but-- I don't know. For me, 'Ghost Book' is not scary at all. [laughs] I would describe it more as a fantasy, I would say.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, like supernatural fantasy. Absolutely.

REMY LAI: Yeah. But 'Read at Your Own Risk' is plain horror.

JADE ARNOLD: Very much horror. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really important distinguishing factor. If you've got readers who are really after a spooky read, 'Read at Your Own Risk' is definitely going to scratch that itch. But you kind of touched on something that I wanted to talk a little bit more about.

Now, this book was a bit of a departure from your really signature artwork style and because it's leaning even more into that horror genre, I know that's really hard to do for a middle grade audience without getting too scary or too gruesome. So I wanted to ask, how did you manage to make it appropriate for middle grade readers? And also, was this the motivation behind switching your illustration style to this kind of creepy, scratchy style of artwork?

REMY LAI: For me, the illustration style suits the story and the format because it's her diary. So you wouldn't really write or draw very detailed drawings in your diary because you do it almost every day and so you just go quickly. And also, she is only 12 and so she hasn't really developed an art style. In the book, I never mentioned that she was an artist or anything.

And also, I think with horror, sometimes what's scarier is the things that you cannot see or the things that the author doesn't tell you. So your imagination is like your worst enemy. [laughs] So that's why I kind of did the scratchy style. It was a deliberate decision. And as to making it creepy without making it too inappropriate, I would say, I have a lot help from my editor, Brian.

And when I was writing this book, I wasn't thinking about selling it. I just wanted to write something that was like fun for me. [laughs] So I didn't really care whether it was too scary or whatever. And then I wasn't sure whether my editor would go for it, but he did. So once he read that, he said he loved it. But obviously, we need to tone down some of the violence, [laughs] some of the horror, which I understood completely.

And so I worked with him to tone down some of the things to make it more appropriate. But we also have to be careful in making sure that you don't tone it down too much, that it's no longer a horror book. Because for me, when I pick up a book that's said to be horror and then I don't find it scary, I'm quite mad. So we just played around with that balance. And I'm sure that some readers will find it a bit too scary and some readers will think that it's not scary enough. So-- [laughs] So I would say that it's for horror readers.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. It's such a tricky balance to get that mix right of-- you obviously don't want to talk down to your readers and baby them too much, but you also want to make it so that it's not so overwhelmingly horrifying for a young reader. So yeah, that must be such a tricky tightrope to walk, but it sounds like having that balance between your original story and your vision for something super creepy and then having an editor with a bit of that experience to know the right places to tone it down a bit makes that perfect mix.

REMY LAI: Yeah. And we also kept that in mind while we're designing the cover because we want the kids to make a decision for themselves based on the cover, to see whether, oh, does this look like it's going to be too scary for me or not?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we always talk about don't judge a book by its cover. But there's always so much thought that goes into designing a book cover and it's there to let the reader know, who is this targeted at? What type of genre do you think it might be? And I think that artwork really captures that. It's very much a middle grade, perfect for Years 5 to 6, 7 to 8 kind of readers. But obviously it's hinting at the fact that it is a bit of a creepy book as well. So if you don't like scary stories, maybe steer clear of this one. But if you love them, dive in.

Now, for readers who loved the spooky and supernatural elements of 'Ghost Book' and 'Read at Your Own Risk', what would you suggest they try next?

REMY LAI: If you like 'Ghost Book', I wouldn't say you would necessarily like 'Read at Your Own Risk' because they're very different. So if you like 'Ghost Book', I would say, try the graphic novels. They are contemporary fantasies also, 'The Okay Witch'. And then there's also 'Witches of Brooklyn'. So they're contemporary fantasy graphic novels. And for 'Read at Your Own Risk'--

Well, when I was a kid, I really loved all the R.L. Stine series. And there's a newer one, not by R.L. Stine, but by it's called 'Hide and Seeker' by Daka Hermon.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that sounds like a great one. I think those are some fantastic recommendations. But yeah, very much R.L. Stine vibes from 'Read at Your Own Risk' for people who are our age. [laughs] But I think 'Goosebumps' is still relatively popular with readers now. So great suggestions there.

Now, for our next 'between the bookshelves' pitch, let's talk about 'Pawcasso', which starts out as any dog lover's dream and quickly descends into chaos. Can you share how you'd pitch this book to a student standing between the bookshelves considering whether or not to take it home?

REMY LAI: Yes. It's about a dog who rolls in poop and goes shopping. I think that's enough. No. [laughs] So I feel like if you like dogs, that's enough. But a proper answer is that it's about a lonely girl, who doesn't really have any friends. But when she follows this dog, who is on his own and carrying a shopping basket, and people around her mistake the dog to be hers and she starts becoming really popular because she has this really cute shopping dog.

And so then she lets them believe that it's her dog, but actually it's not. And so her lies get bigger and bigger and she is afraid that once they all find out that the dog is not hers, she is going to lose all her new friends.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I love books that start out with that premise of just a little white lie and then all the lies that have to keep that lie in operation and it just gets bigger and bigger and just kind of snowballs out of control. Now, as you've mentioned in your pitch, this book starts with Joanna struggling to make friends and that little white lie is what helps her connect with other people. And that's part of the reason why she does it.

And I've noticed that there's that same theme of being a bit of an outsider or maybe not having a lot of friends and then finding connection, which appears in a lot of your other titles, like 'Pie in the Sky' and 'Fly on the Wall' and even in 'Ghost Book'. Is this something that you intentionally include in your books, or does it just emerge naturally when you're writing your stories?

REMY LAI: I don't like to be psychoanalysed this way, but--

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Sorry.

[laughter]

REMY LAI: Well, I would say, I think-- you know how people say authors just keep writing the same stories but in different ways. I think this is my thing. [laughs] Yeah. But when I was a kid, I definitely-- well, I had friends, but I definitely did feel like an outsider sometimes and I think we all feel that. But I think a lot of it has to do with me moving countries when I was about 9 and not knowing the language, like 'Pie in the Sky'.

And so that was probably the moment where I felt the most alone. And so I think that might be the turning point in my life. And so, yeah, I think I don't intentionally include them in my books, but it always comes out that way.

JADE ARNOLD: Obviously changing schools, which I did a bit in my childhood, was always really hard and the first month or 2, it felt like a nightmare. And trying to start at your new school and trying to make new friends and figure out the social landscape was always so rough. And then when you do something like change countries completely or add learning a new language on top of that, it would just be so incredibly isolating.

But I think that's such a good theme to see in novels for readers who might be going through similar things, whether it is them changing countries or changing schools or just changing friend groups and feeling really isolated. It's one of those books that I feel like you can really see yourself in and feel a lot of empathy for the main character, but also feel like things will eventually get better, even though they don't feel like that right at this very moment.

For readers who have fallen in love with 'Pawcasso', what would you suggest they try next?

REMY LAI: This one is probably not really the same theme, but it's a dog book. [laughs] It's called 'The Way of Dog'.

JADE ARNOLD: By Zana Fraillon?

REMY LAI: Yeah, I'm not sure about the last name.

JADE ARNOLD: I don't know how to pronounce it. I might have said it wrong, but I'm fairly certain that one is on the Premier's Reading Challenge book list as well and I will put the proper spelling and title in the show notes. Follow-up question to that is, how much was 'Pawcasso' inspired by your love of your own dog?

REMY LAI: It started out with me wanting to write a book about my dog. Well, my editor said, you love dogs, why don't you write a dog book? And I said, yes, OK, I'll write a book about my dog. But I mean, he loves to roll in poop, like the dog in 'Pawcasso', but that wasn't really-- he doesn't know how to do shopping or anything like that.

The shopping idea I got-- actually, there's a dog statue here in Brisbane of a dog carrying a basket in Stone's Corner, if anyone of you comes up to Brisbane. And apparently this dog used to live in that suburb and he used to carry a basket and go shopping on his own. So that's really cool.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I love that so much. Aw. Now, the next book of yours that I wanted to talk about was 'Fly on the Wall'. Would you be able to give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for 'Fly on the Wall', which is on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

REMY LAI: 'Fly on the Wall' is again in the diary format. It's written by a boy named Henry. And he's 12, but his family treats him as if he is a baby. And so to prove to them that he's not a baby anymore, he sneaks off on a plane flight to another country on his own without telling his family. And so the story's about whether, oh, does he make it to the other country, and what kind of consequences would he get if his parents catch him?

JADE ARNOLD: I just love this premise of, I have to prove to my parents that I'm not a baby, so I'm going to get on a flight and go overseas because it's something that only a 11 or 12-year-old could think of, as like, yeah, that's a reasonable thing to prove my maturity, [laughs] not really thinking about how much that would freak everyone out. But it's so funny.

And this title had so much appeal to my Year 7 and 8 students when I was back in a school, especially those that were maybe the younger child of bigger families or some of the children who were only children and they were babied because of that. So obviously, there's a lot of strong themes here about helicopter parenting and trying to see younger children for who they are rather than just being the smallest and least capable. What message do you hope readers, and maybe their parents as well, take away from this book?

REMY LAI: So for me, I didn't actually have helicopter parents. [laughs] So this book wasn't drawn from experience. But I think a lot of the times kids and parents can understand each other better with communication, I guess, just telling each other what they're feeling because sometimes you think that your parent is doing something to you just to annoy you or just to be mean. [laughs] But actually, there's some good reasons for them for doing so. And then it also works the other way. Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. So good communication will hopefully stop your child from hopping on a plane and going to a different country to prove themselves. [laughs] If readers loved this book, what do you think they should try next?

REMY LAI: I have a suggestion that's not like the book itself, not like 'Fly on the Wall', but this is for kids who sometimes they want to imagine that they are free to do whatever they want and so this book will be really good for it. It's called 'The Last Kids on Earth'.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, yes. Yes, that is such a fun one. I think that's a great recommendation. Now, the next book I wanted to talk about was 'Pie in the Sky', which was your debut novel, and it features on the 5 to 6 book list, like most your other titles. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this one?

REMY LAI: 'Pie in the Sky' is about 2 brothers who moved to Australia, but they cannot speak English, so now they are struggling to make friends and they're struggling to, of course, follow classes because it's in English. And one of the brothers, the older one, is also struggling with the loss of their father.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's such a beautiful but also gut-wrenching, at times, story. And throughout you walk this tightrope between genuine humour and the younger brother is just this absolute character who has a lot of these moments that will make you just laugh out loud. But then there's also a lot of those really hard-hitting themes.

As you mentioned, Jingwen is really struggling to fit in after moving to Australia and having to learn a new language and obviously that language barrier is making him feel really excluded at school, so he doesn't feel a lot of joy or solace or friendship when he's at school. And then on top of all of that, he's struggling with the loss of his father and trying to keep this dream of his father's alive of opening this bakery.

And he wants to bake all these cakes that his dad wanted to do. But his mum has been very adamant that they are not allowed to use the oven while she's out of the house. And so they have to come up with all these extreme excuses as to how they got this cake. So it's just this beautiful mish mash. And what message do you hope your readers take home from this book, and how do you think humour helps get that message across?

REMY LAI: I think for me, maybe the message is that things will be OK. [laughs] That's a very short message. But sometimes when you're going through a really tough time and you think that, oh, this is going to stink forever, usually it won't. Things will get better and you'll be OK. So I think that's the message from the book.

And for me, the humour, I would find it really hard to write a book without humour. [laughs] I like to read funny things. But also, I think humour helps to release the tension a little bit. So when things are starting to get bad and then-- it's kind of like they say-- I think someone used this analogy before of a rubber band. So you keep tightening it and tightening it. If you don't release it, it's going to snap. So that's why you need the humour to loosen it a little bit and then you can tell more of the sad and scary parts and tighten the rubber band again.

JADE ARNOLD: That's such a good analogy. And I think a really important thing to incorporate, particularly in middle grade literature, where obviously young readers deserve to explore these really hard themes of loss and not fitting in because they may be going through that themselves or it's just a part of life, but also making it so that it's not too overwhelming for that intended audience is really good. And I do love a good book that can make you chuckle whilst you're on the verge of starting to tear up. So it's a really good strategy and a really good analogy.

Coming back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat, what would you recommend readers try next if they loved 'Pie in the Sky'?

REMY LAI: It's called 'Parachute Kids' by Betty Tang. I think there are 3 siblings, who were dropped off in the US, I think, and then they had to find their own way there. I think they need to learn the language and everything also.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Wow. I haven't heard of that one, but that sounds like a fantastic next book and we'll put that one in the show notes and maybe I'll have to go and find it and read it myself, just so I can enjoy it too.

Beyond your middle grade books, you've also created the 'Surviving the Wild' series, which are graphic novels for younger readers, and so far this series includes 'Star the Elephant', Rainbow the Koala' and 'Sunny the Shark', which all feature on the 3 to 4 PRC book list. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

REMY LAI: Yes. 'Surviving the Wild' is a series of books about animals trying to survive in the wild when their environment has been changed by humans. So, for example, 'Star the Elephant' is about a family of elephants, who are losing a lot of their forests and their food source to deforestation. So then what they decide to do is they decide to swim across the ocean to another island.

And 'Rainbow the Koala' is about a young koala. I think it's about a year old and he has to leave his mum, which they do when they are about that age, and then so he has to survive the bush on his own. And 'Sunny the Shark' is about a shark, who's fin gets caught in a bit of plastic and which makes it difficult for her to swim and which she needs to do in order to get food.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I loved how these books have this really wonderful introduction to protecting the environment and how us as humans have this massive impact on the wildlife around us. And particularly with 'Sunny the Shark', I loved how obviously sharks can be this animal that is a bit scary and have a bit of a fierce reputation, but Sunny's journey really makes us empathise and consider our own rubbish and littering and things like that. So which one of these was your favourite to create?

REMY LAI: Ooh. I had a lot of fun researching all the animal facts. It was really fun for me. But I think maybe the coolest one, if I had to choose, was probably the shark because I got to correspond with a shark professor. I don't think that's the official title, but he's a scientist and he researchers sharks at a university. And so I got to ask him a lot of shark facts. And sharks are really super cool.

And also, one funny thing, when we were doing 'Sunny the Shark' was, in one of the earlier drafts, I wrote that sharks cannot swim backwards because I just thought that was true. But someone on the copyediting team said that might not be true because there's one video online of a shark swimming backwards. So we don't really know that. There's so much that we don't know about sharks. They're really hard to study. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, [laughs] I imagine they are. And what would you recommend young readers try next if they enjoyed this series?

REMY LAI: There's 'Wandi' by Favel Parrett and then that's for the younger, I think. And then if you're an older reader, I would say Rosanne Parry has 'A Wolf Called Wander' or 'A Whale of the Wild'.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful recommendations. Now, something that I wanted to ask you because obviously your career as a graphic novelist is something that we've seen in the book-publishing industry is this increase in the number of graphic novels being published, especially for the middle grade and now junior fiction readers. Why do you think graphic novels are so popular with readers, and do you see this trend continuing?

REMY LAI: Yeah, I know. People say that it's more recent. But the thing is, I've been reading comics since I was a kid. [laughs] So I think graphic novels in English are kind of a new trend. But obviously we have the Japanese manga and things like that, we have had that for a really long time. I guess kids are always going to be just drawn to pictures, [laughs] at least I was really when I was a kid and I still do now. And so I hope that we get a lot more graphic novels.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think growing up in Australia, my exposure to comics and graphic novels was in the Saturday morning newspaper, the comic strips that I would always eagerly pull out and then some of the superhero comics. But that was really all that I was aware of when I was growing up.

And so this shift in the Australian publishing market, at least, to have far more graphic novels that are telling stories beyond superheroes and action scenes and the phantom, which is what I was reading when I was younger, is a really nice change to see. And yeah, hopefully it does continue. But something that we often hear from parents or sometimes even teachers, is this idea that graphic novels aren't real reading and that they're somehow less valuable than prose novels.

What would you say to any adults who might be hesitant to let their kids read graphic novels?

REMY LAI: I would say maybe they should try and read one themselves [laughs] because I think that many of them do still think it's like superhero comics. But they haven't actually read one [laughs] to find out that it's not like that.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I think that's such a good point. I think when I used to think of the term comics or graphic novels, I would think of those little strips of stories that aren't very prolonged. It's a short, maybe 5 panels of what's happening and there isn't a lot going on in the story. Usually it's a quick little joke or something like that. And I didn't really have this concept of a prolonged narrative with complex twists and turns and characterisations and all these other different things, like picking up on the illustrations and the nonverbal cues in people's body language in those comics, that are such rich ways to explore the text. And so I think that's such fantastic advice.

If you don't know where to start, maybe start with some of Remy Lai's graphic novels. That would be a good starting point to see what graphic novels can do nowadays versus when we were younger ourselves. That's great advice. Thank you.

REMY LAI: Yeah. And sometimes people think that maybe you don't learn new words or something when you're reading a graphic novel, I think, because there are so little words in a graphic novel compared to a prose book. But the thing is, when you're writing a graphic novel, you have to be, I want to say, even more judicious in your words because you can only use so few of them. It's not like you can write and draw a 500 graphic novel. Your editor and your publisher would say no.

So [laughs] telling this whole complex story in this really-- what 200 plus pages with pictures? So you have to really choose your words carefully.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's a really good point too. Now, beyond your own fantastic graphic novels and the ones that you've mentioned already, are there any graphic novels that you think are important to include in a school library?

REMY LAI: I think we should include a wide variety of them, like from fantasy to non-fiction graphic novels. I find non-fiction graphic novels really fun to read. For me, they're easier to read than just prose. It makes it easier for me to take in information. Because not all kids would like the same books-- or rather, the better way to say it is, there's a book for every kid. So we can't just stock the contemporary graphic novels.

We should also have the fantasy ones and the non-fiction ones and things like that. But if there is one graphic novel that I would like stocked in a school library, one of my favourite graphic novels that I've read-- I reread it almost every year, at least once-- it's called 'Bone' by Jeff Smith. Yeah, that's my all-time favourite.

JADE ARNOLD: Right, I'll have to check that out myself because I haven't read that. But I think what you were saying there about all the different types of genres and different types of graphic novels out there is so important. I've just come across this graphic novel called 'Follow Your Gut', which is a graphic novelisation looking at your gut microbiome. It's essentially a biology textbook, but it's in graphic-novel format and it's so much more interesting to read because of that.

And it's a much easier way if you're looking for something to keep you entertained, whilst also learning a lot to learn about that. And I'd love for there to be more textbooks in graphic-novel format because then I'd actually want to read it instead of seeing it as a chore. [laughs]

Can readers look forward to any new stories from you in the future? Are there any projects that you're currently working on that you can share with us?

REMY LAI: Yeah. I won't have a new graphic novel out until, I think, '27. It's a middle grade one. It's about a girl who accidentally summons up a demon. It's a fantasy. But then signs of the apocalypse starts appearing all over her town and so she has to decide whether she should return the demon or not. [laughs] It's not horror, it's fantasy. Yeah. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds like so much fun. Well, I can't wait to see that. Are there any more books coming in your younger reader series?

REMY LAI: Not at the moment, no. No plans at the moment.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, we look forward to seeing your next graphic novel in 2027. And our final question for today, what are you currently reading, or what are you excited to dive into next?

REMY LAI: The latest one that I read was 'Thunderhead' by Sophie Beer, illustrated novel. So those of you who are interested in that-- and it's contemporary. So, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: That's a fantastic one to dive into. Well, I think there's been some fantastic recommendations in there. But, Remy, I wanted to thank you so much for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure talking to you about your books, from your spooky ghosts and hilarious sibling drama, all the way down to the heartfelt stories of friendship and identity and belonging. And I'm sure that teacher librarians all across NSW will be featuring your titles front and centre in their book talks.

And I have no doubt that even more students will be reaching for your books as they dive into the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. And hopefully, you've convinced a few adults out there to give graphic novels a try as well. So thank you so much for joining me.

REMY LAI: Thanks so much, Jade.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW, (Department of Education), 2025.