Between the bookshelves

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JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

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You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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Welcome to episode 15 of 'Between the bookshelves'. Today I'm joined by the brilliant author and illustrator Remy Lai. Remy's graphic novels and illustrated novels are well loved by readers in Australia and around the world and feature prominently on the 5 to 6 Premier's Reading Challenge book lists.

Her middle grade titles have received a host of accolades, including the Best Book of the Year from the School Library Journal, the American Library Association and the Kirkus awards overseas. And back home she's received recognition as a CBCA Notable Book and won both the Victorian Premier's Literary Awards and the Prime Minister's Literary Awards. Remy is also the creator of the 'Surviving the Wild' series, a delightful and educational graphic novel collection for younger readers that feature on the 3 to 4 book lists.

Remy, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

REMY LAI: I'm great. Thanks so much for having me.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, it's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for giving up your time to join us on this podcast. Before we dive into your books today, Remy, I'd like to start off with a little game of this or that, just to get to know you a little bit better. Basically, I will give you 2 options and you have to choose which one you'd prefer. You can justify your answer or you can leave your answer stand on its own. It's totally up to you. Are you ready?

REMY LAI: Let's go.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. Graphic novel or illustrated novel?

REMY LAI: Graphic novel.

JADE ARNOLD: Writing or illustrating?

REMY LAI: Writing.

JADE ARNOLD: Plot twist or slow reveal?

REMY LAI: Plot twist.

JADE ARNOLD: Dogs or cats?

REMY LAI: Dogs.

JADE ARNOLD: Scary ghost or friendly ghost?

REMY LAI: Scary.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh. [laughs] Fantastic.

REMY LAI: That was a very hard game because [laughs] I would answer differently on different days.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: I can imagine so. And I guess it depends on what you're up to as well. But that was a bit of fun. Thank you for joining me in that. Let's jump into the serious questions now. Now, as you'd probably be aware, Remy, one of the key aims of the Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. And with that in mind, we like to do a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch with the authors that we have on this podcast.

So I would like you to imagine that there is a student standing between the bookshelves. Maybe it's their school library. Maybe it's a public library. Maybe it's their local bookshop. And they're in the L section, and they see your titles there on the shelves and you've got to help make them make the decision to take your books home. With that in mind, could you please give us a 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'Chickenpox', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

REMY LAI: Yeah. 'Chickenpox' is a graphic novel. And it's about the older sister of 5 siblings. So she's the oldest one of 5 kids and she is finding that her siblings are really annoying. So when they all get chickenpox, which is not very common nowadays, but when you get it, you have to stay home for a week so that you don't pass it to your friends at school. And so now she and her siblings all catch it and she's stuck at home with them for at least a week. And I don't know whether she can survive it.

JADE ARNOLD: It's absolute torture for her, isn't it?

REMY LAI: It is. And I'm one of 5 kids, too, so that's where the story came from.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And I know that obviously a lot of the characters in this were named or inspired after your own family. And something that I found really interesting and very amusing is that you've written it from the perspective of the older sister and, from her perspective, the character of Remy is a bit of an antagonist. She's always picking fights with her other siblings and she's the difficult one to manage. How hard was it to write this kind of biographical graphic novel from your sister's perspective and not paint yourself in a favourable light?

REMY LAI: It was actually really fun. Usually when you're writing a book and the main character usually would need to grow and have some redeeming qualities, so they cannot be too evil, I want to say. But in this case, actually it was really fun. But I have to say that I'm only able to do it because I'm a grown up now [laughs] because obviously when I was a kid, I found my sisters and my brothers really annoying.

And so I didn't understand a lot of the things that my sisters did or say. And now that I'm older, we are all older, we actually get along a lot better. And when I was growing up, I started to understand why my sister did the things she did. And so I found her less annoying. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Yeah, I think it definitely takes a bit of hindsight and maturity to look back on yourself as a child and go, OK, well, like, I did find them annoying, but there's definitely reasons why they were doing the things that I was doing. And maybe I wasn't perfect all the time either. And I think that's such a-- probably fun experience for you to explore, but I think that's also such a great message for readers as well.

There's a few scenes towards the end where there's this discussion between the siblings and the main characters coming to this realisation that, oh, actually, one of my sisters is much more mature than I thought and I could probably cut her a bit of slack and involve her in certain things a bit more, rather than just taking everything on my own because I think all my siblings are super immature and can't do anything. And that growth there and the sibling dynamics and the conflict between them, I think is probably a really universal thing that happens in any multi-child family. And definitely, I saw a lot of bits of my childhood there as well.

REMY LAI: Yeah. And I think that now that we're not living together, it's easier to like each other. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, you're not inside each other's space all the time, so you don't get as cranky with them. [laughs]

REMY LAI: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: So maybe a good book to read for young readers who might have really annoying siblings and maybe they can get a little bit out of that. [laughs] If our young reader has devoured 'Chickenpox' and they loved it and they found it super amusing and is back 'between the bookshelves' looking for their next great read, what do you think they should try reading next?

REMY LAI: There is another graphic novel that's about siblings. It's called 'Squished' by Megan Lloyd, so that one would be a good one to read.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, fantastic recommendation. And just for our listeners, we'll pop all the books that we talk about, including all of Remy's suggestions, in the show notes so that you can check them at the end. Now, your first foray into the supernatural in terms of your writing was with 'Ghost Book'. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title?

REMY LAI: Yeah. So 'Ghost Book' is about a girl, who-- nobody ever remembers her or remembers her name. But finally, one day, she makes her first friend. But this friend turns out to be a ghost. It's a boy ghost. But actually, he's not really dead. He is kind of stuck in between the worlds of the living and the dead and she is the only one who can save him, bring him back to life. But the only way she can save her friend is to give up her own life. So what will happen? You have to read.

JADE ARNOLD: A lot of high-stakes drama there. Now, this story is set during Hungry Ghost Month. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about Hungry Ghost Month, as well as what it was like to write a story based around it?

REMY LAI: Yeah. Hungry Ghost Month is a Chinese culture festival, so it's about the seventh month on the lunar calendar, where supposedly the gates of the underworld open, and all the ghosts that are usually stuck in the underworld are now free to roam among us for the whole month. And they're not so friendly ghosts, so they're kind of dangerous ghosts.

And it was really fun for me to write about it because I grew up in Singapore, which is a country with a majority of Chinese. So Hungry Ghost Month was sort of just a part of the culture there. So for me, it was just there. It wasn't really something that I had to learn in a sense because it was just there. And it was really fun for me to revisit it. And so because I grew up with it, I didn't really know too many facts about it in a way that you would learn from a textbook or something like that.

So when I was writing the book, I had to do some research and so I actually learned a lot of information that I didn't have before. Some of the things that you grew up with are not exactly the same as what's written on the textbook, I suppose. There are regional differences too.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, there'll be a lot of cultural variations in practice. So it's like this nice little part of your childhood and your culture just taken and turned into this really fun and a little bit creepy graphic novel. The next book of yours that I'd like to talk about is another horror title, called 'Read at Your Own Risk'. This one is a bit spookier, I think, than the previous. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title?

REMY LAI: Yeah. It's about a girl. [laughs] She's writing in her diary. And she has been cursed and she has 8 days to break this curse. And she's been cursed by this evil and this evil now starts talking to her in the pages of her diary. So you would read the conversation between her and the evil. And she has 8 days to break the curse or something terrible really will happen to her.

I would say that this one is-- 'Ghost Book', some people say it's horror, but-- I don't know. For me, 'Ghost Book' is not scary at all. [laughs] I would describe it more as a fantasy, I would say.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, like supernatural fantasy. Absolutely.

REMY LAI: Yeah. But 'Read at Your Own Risk' is plain horror.

JADE ARNOLD: Very much horror. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really important distinguishing factor. If you've got readers who are really after a spooky read, 'Read at Your Own Risk' is definitely going to scratch that itch. But you kind of touched on something that I wanted to talk a little bit more about.

Now, this book was a bit of a departure from your really signature artwork style and because it's leaning even more into that horror genre, I know that's really hard to do for a middle grade audience without getting too scary or too gruesome. So I wanted to ask, how did you manage to make it appropriate for middle grade readers? And also, was this the motivation behind switching your illustration style to this kind of creepy, scratchy style of artwork?

REMY LAI: For me, the illustration style suits the story and the format because it's her diary. So you wouldn't really write or draw very detailed drawings in your diary because you do it almost every day and so you just go quickly. And also, she is only 12 and so she hasn't really developed an art style. In the book, I never mentioned that she was an artist or anything.

And also, I think with horror, sometimes what's scarier is the things that you cannot see or the things that the author doesn't tell you. So your imagination is like your worst enemy. [laughs] So that's why I kind of did the scratchy style. It was a deliberate decision. And as to making it creepy without making it too inappropriate, I would say, I have a lot help from my editor, Brian.

And when I was writing this book, I wasn't thinking about selling it. I just wanted to write something that was like fun for me. [laughs] So I didn't really care whether it was too scary or whatever. And then I wasn't sure whether my editor would go for it, but he did. So once he read that, he said he loved it. But obviously, we need to tone down some of the violence, [laughs] some of the horror, which I understood completely.

And so I worked with him to tone down some of the things to make it more appropriate. But we also have to be careful in making sure that you don't tone it down too much, that it's no longer a horror book. Because for me, when I pick up a book that's said to be horror and then I don't find it scary, I'm quite mad. So we just played around with that balance. And I'm sure that some readers will find it a bit too scary and some readers will think that it's not scary enough. So-- [laughs] So I would say that it's for horror readers.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. It's such a tricky balance to get that mix right of-- you obviously don't want to talk down to your readers and baby them too much, but you also want to make it so that it's not so overwhelmingly horrifying for a young reader. So yeah, that must be such a tricky tightrope to walk, but it sounds like having that balance between your original story and your vision for something super creepy and then having an editor with a bit of that experience to know the right places to tone it down a bit makes that perfect mix.

REMY LAI: Yeah. And we also kept that in mind while we're designing the cover because we want the kids to make a decision for themselves based on the cover, to see whether, oh, does this look like it's going to be too scary for me or not?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we always talk about don't judge a book by its cover. But there's always so much thought that goes into designing a book cover and it's there to let the reader know, who is this targeted at? What type of genre do you think it might be? And I think that artwork really captures that. It's very much a middle grade, perfect for Years 5 to 6, 7 to 8 kind of readers. But obviously it's hinting at the fact that it is a bit of a creepy book as well. So if you don't like scary stories, maybe steer clear of this one. But if you love them, dive in.

Now, for readers who loved the spooky and supernatural elements of 'Ghost Book' and 'Read at Your Own Risk', what would you suggest they try next?

REMY LAI: If you like 'Ghost Book', I wouldn't say you would necessarily like 'Read at Your Own Risk' because they're very different. So if you like 'Ghost Book', I would say, try the graphic novels. They are contemporary fantasies also, 'The Okay Witch'. And then there's also 'Witches of Brooklyn'. So they're contemporary fantasy graphic novels. And for 'Read at Your Own Risk'--

Well, when I was a kid, I really loved all the R.L. Stine series. And there's a newer one, not by R.L. Stine, but by it's called 'Hide and Seeker' by Daka Hermon.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that sounds like a great one. I think those are some fantastic recommendations. But yeah, very much R.L. Stine vibes from 'Read at Your Own Risk' for people who are our age. [laughs] But I think 'Goosebumps' is still relatively popular with readers now. So great suggestions there.

Now, for our next 'between the bookshelves' pitch, let's talk about 'Pawcasso', which starts out as any dog lover's dream and quickly descends into chaos. Can you share how you'd pitch this book to a student standing between the bookshelves considering whether or not to take it home?

REMY LAI: Yes. It's about a dog who rolls in poop and goes shopping. I think that's enough. No. [laughs] So I feel like if you like dogs, that's enough. But a proper answer is that it's about a lonely girl, who doesn't really have any friends. But when she follows this dog, who is on his own and carrying a shopping basket, and people around her mistake the dog to be hers and she starts becoming really popular because she has this really cute shopping dog.

And so then she lets them believe that it's her dog, but actually it's not. And so her lies get bigger and bigger and she is afraid that once they all find out that the dog is not hers, she is going to lose all her new friends.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I love books that start out with that premise of just a little white lie and then all the lies that have to keep that lie in operation and it just gets bigger and bigger and just kind of snowballs out of control. Now, as you've mentioned in your pitch, this book starts with Joanna struggling to make friends and that little white lie is what helps her connect with other people. And that's part of the reason why she does it.

And I've noticed that there's that same theme of being a bit of an outsider or maybe not having a lot of friends and then finding connection, which appears in a lot of your other titles, like 'Pie in the Sky' and 'Fly on the Wall' and even in 'Ghost Book'. Is this something that you intentionally include in your books, or does it just emerge naturally when you're writing your stories?

REMY LAI: I don't like to be psychoanalysed this way, but--

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Sorry.

[laughter]

REMY LAI: Well, I would say, I think-- you know how people say authors just keep writing the same stories but in different ways. I think this is my thing. [laughs] Yeah. But when I was a kid, I definitely-- well, I had friends, but I definitely did feel like an outsider sometimes and I think we all feel that. But I think a lot of it has to do with me moving countries when I was about 9 and not knowing the language, like 'Pie in the Sky'.

And so that was probably the moment where I felt the most alone. And so I think that might be the turning point in my life. And so, yeah, I think I don't intentionally include them in my books, but it always comes out that way.

JADE ARNOLD: Obviously changing schools, which I did a bit in my childhood, was always really hard and the first month or 2, it felt like a nightmare. And trying to start at your new school and trying to make new friends and figure out the social landscape was always so rough. And then when you do something like change countries completely or add learning a new language on top of that, it would just be so incredibly isolating.

But I think that's such a good theme to see in novels for readers who might be going through similar things, whether it is them changing countries or changing schools or just changing friend groups and feeling really isolated. It's one of those books that I feel like you can really see yourself in and feel a lot of empathy for the main character, but also feel like things will eventually get better, even though they don't feel like that right at this very moment.

For readers who have fallen in love with 'Pawcasso', what would you suggest they try next?

REMY LAI: This one is probably not really the same theme, but it's a dog book. [laughs] It's called 'The Way of Dog'.

JADE ARNOLD: By Zana Fraillon?

REMY LAI: Yeah, I'm not sure about the last name.

JADE ARNOLD: I don't know how to pronounce it. I might have said it wrong, but I'm fairly certain that one is on the Premier's Reading Challenge book list as well and I will put the proper spelling and title in the show notes. Follow-up question to that is, how much was 'Pawcasso' inspired by your love of your own dog?

REMY LAI: It started out with me wanting to write a book about my dog. Well, my editor said, you love dogs, why don't you write a dog book? And I said, yes, OK, I'll write a book about my dog. But I mean, he loves to roll in poop, like the dog in 'Pawcasso', but that wasn't really-- he doesn't know how to do shopping or anything like that.

The shopping idea I got-- actually, there's a dog statue here in Brisbane of a dog carrying a basket in Stone's Corner, if anyone of you comes up to Brisbane. And apparently this dog used to live in that suburb and he used to carry a basket and go shopping on his own. So that's really cool.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I love that so much. Aw. Now, the next book of yours that I wanted to talk about was 'Fly on the Wall'. Would you be able to give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for 'Fly on the Wall', which is on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

REMY LAI: 'Fly on the Wall' is again in the diary format. It's written by a boy named Henry. And he's 12, but his family treats him as if he is a baby. And so to prove to them that he's not a baby anymore, he sneaks off on a plane flight to another country on his own without telling his family. And so the story's about whether, oh, does he make it to the other country, and what kind of consequences would he get if his parents catch him?

JADE ARNOLD: I just love this premise of, I have to prove to my parents that I'm not a baby, so I'm going to get on a flight and go overseas because it's something that only a 11 or 12-year-old could think of, as like, yeah, that's a reasonable thing to prove my maturity, [laughs] not really thinking about how much that would freak everyone out. But it's so funny.

And this title had so much appeal to my Year 7 and 8 students when I was back in a school, especially those that were maybe the younger child of bigger families or some of the children who were only children and they were babied because of that. So obviously, there's a lot of strong themes here about helicopter parenting and trying to see younger children for who they are rather than just being the smallest and least capable. What message do you hope readers, and maybe their parents as well, take away from this book?

REMY LAI: So for me, I didn't actually have helicopter parents. [laughs] So this book wasn't drawn from experience. But I think a lot of the times kids and parents can understand each other better with communication, I guess, just telling each other what they're feeling because sometimes you think that your parent is doing something to you just to annoy you or just to be mean. [laughs] But actually, there's some good reasons for them for doing so. And then it also works the other way. Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. So good communication will hopefully stop your child from hopping on a plane and going to a different country to prove themselves. [laughs] If readers loved this book, what do you think they should try next?

REMY LAI: I have a suggestion that's not like the book itself, not like 'Fly on the Wall', but this is for kids who sometimes they want to imagine that they are free to do whatever they want and so this book will be really good for it. It's called 'The Last Kids on Earth'.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, yes. Yes, that is such a fun one. I think that's a great recommendation. Now, the next book I wanted to talk about was 'Pie in the Sky', which was your debut novel, and it features on the 5 to 6 book list, like most your other titles. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this one?

REMY LAI: 'Pie in the Sky' is about 2 brothers who moved to Australia, but they cannot speak English, so now they are struggling to make friends and they're struggling to, of course, follow classes because it's in English. And one of the brothers, the older one, is also struggling with the loss of their father.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's such a beautiful but also gut-wrenching, at times, story. And throughout you walk this tightrope between genuine humour and the younger brother is just this absolute character who has a lot of these moments that will make you just laugh out loud. But then there's also a lot of those really hard-hitting themes.

As you mentioned, Jingwen is really struggling to fit in after moving to Australia and having to learn a new language and obviously that language barrier is making him feel really excluded at school, so he doesn't feel a lot of joy or solace or friendship when he's at school. And then on top of all of that, he's struggling with the loss of his father and trying to keep this dream of his father's alive of opening this bakery.

And he wants to bake all these cakes that his dad wanted to do. But his mum has been very adamant that they are not allowed to use the oven while she's out of the house. And so they have to come up with all these extreme excuses as to how they got this cake. So it's just this beautiful mish mash. And what message do you hope your readers take home from this book, and how do you think humour helps get that message across?

REMY LAI: I think for me, maybe the message is that things will be OK. [laughs] That's a very short message. But sometimes when you're going through a really tough time and you think that, oh, this is going to stink forever, usually it won't. Things will get better and you'll be OK. So I think that's the message from the book.

And for me, the humour, I would find it really hard to write a book without humour. [laughs] I like to read funny things. But also, I think humour helps to release the tension a little bit. So when things are starting to get bad and then-- it's kind of like they say-- I think someone used this analogy before of a rubber band. So you keep tightening it and tightening it. If you don't release it, it's going to snap. So that's why you need the humour to loosen it a little bit and then you can tell more of the sad and scary parts and tighten the rubber band again.

JADE ARNOLD: That's such a good analogy. And I think a really important thing to incorporate, particularly in middle grade literature, where obviously young readers deserve to explore these really hard themes of loss and not fitting in because they may be going through that themselves or it's just a part of life, but also making it so that it's not too overwhelming for that intended audience is really good. And I do love a good book that can make you chuckle whilst you're on the verge of starting to tear up. So it's a really good strategy and a really good analogy.

Coming back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat, what would you recommend readers try next if they loved 'Pie in the Sky'?

REMY LAI: It's called 'Parachute Kids' by Betty Tang. I think there are 3 siblings, who were dropped off in the US, I think, and then they had to find their own way there. I think they need to learn the language and everything also.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Wow. I haven't heard of that one, but that sounds like a fantastic next book and we'll put that one in the show notes and maybe I'll have to go and find it and read it myself, just so I can enjoy it too.

Beyond your middle grade books, you've also created the 'Surviving the Wild' series, which are graphic novels for younger readers, and so far this series includes 'Star the Elephant', Rainbow the Koala' and 'Sunny the Shark', which all feature on the 3 to 4 PRC book list. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

REMY LAI: Yes. 'Surviving the Wild' is a series of books about animals trying to survive in the wild when their environment has been changed by humans. So, for example, 'Star the Elephant' is about a family of elephants, who are losing a lot of their forests and their food source to deforestation. So then what they decide to do is they decide to swim across the ocean to another island.

And 'Rainbow the Koala' is about a young koala. I think it's about a year old and he has to leave his mum, which they do when they are about that age, and then so he has to survive the bush on his own. And 'Sunny the Shark' is about a shark, who's fin gets caught in a bit of plastic and which makes it difficult for her to swim and which she needs to do in order to get food.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I loved how these books have this really wonderful introduction to protecting the environment and how us as humans have this massive impact on the wildlife around us. And particularly with 'Sunny the Shark', I loved how obviously sharks can be this animal that is a bit scary and have a bit of a fierce reputation, but Sunny's journey really makes us empathise and consider our own rubbish and littering and things like that. So which one of these was your favourite to create?

REMY LAI: Ooh. I had a lot of fun researching all the animal facts. It was really fun for me. But I think maybe the coolest one, if I had to choose, was probably the shark because I got to correspond with a shark professor. I don't think that's the official title, but he's a scientist and he researchers sharks at a university. And so I got to ask him a lot of shark facts. And sharks are really super cool.

And also, one funny thing, when we were doing 'Sunny the Shark' was, in one of the earlier drafts, I wrote that sharks cannot swim backwards because I just thought that was true. But someone on the copyediting team said that might not be true because there's one video online of a shark swimming backwards. So we don't really know that. There's so much that we don't know about sharks. They're really hard to study. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, [laughs] I imagine they are. And what would you recommend young readers try next if they enjoyed this series?

REMY LAI: There's 'Wandi' by Favel Parrett and then that's for the younger, I think. And then if you're an older reader, I would say Rosanne Parry has 'A Wolf Called Wander' or 'A Whale of the Wild'.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful recommendations. Now, something that I wanted to ask you because obviously your career as a graphic novelist is something that we've seen in the book-publishing industry is this increase in the number of graphic novels being published, especially for the middle grade and now junior fiction readers. Why do you think graphic novels are so popular with readers, and do you see this trend continuing?

REMY LAI: Yeah, I know. People say that it's more recent. But the thing is, I've been reading comics since I was a kid. [laughs] So I think graphic novels in English are kind of a new trend. But obviously we have the Japanese manga and things like that, we have had that for a really long time. I guess kids are always going to be just drawn to pictures, [laughs] at least I was really when I was a kid and I still do now. And so I hope that we get a lot more graphic novels.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think growing up in Australia, my exposure to comics and graphic novels was in the Saturday morning newspaper, the comic strips that I would always eagerly pull out and then some of the superhero comics. But that was really all that I was aware of when I was growing up.

And so this shift in the Australian publishing market, at least, to have far more graphic novels that are telling stories beyond superheroes and action scenes and the phantom, which is what I was reading when I was younger, is a really nice change to see. And yeah, hopefully it does continue. But something that we often hear from parents or sometimes even teachers, is this idea that graphic novels aren't real reading and that they're somehow less valuable than prose novels.

What would you say to any adults who might be hesitant to let their kids read graphic novels?

REMY LAI: I would say maybe they should try and read one themselves [laughs] because I think that many of them do still think it's like superhero comics. But they haven't actually read one [laughs] to find out that it's not like that.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I think that's such a good point. I think when I used to think of the term comics or graphic novels, I would think of those little strips of stories that aren't very prolonged. It's a short, maybe 5 panels of what's happening and there isn't a lot going on in the story. Usually it's a quick little joke or something like that. And I didn't really have this concept of a prolonged narrative with complex twists and turns and characterisations and all these other different things, like picking up on the illustrations and the nonverbal cues in people's body language in those comics, that are such rich ways to explore the text. And so I think that's such fantastic advice.

If you don't know where to start, maybe start with some of Remy Lai's graphic novels. That would be a good starting point to see what graphic novels can do nowadays versus when we were younger ourselves. That's great advice. Thank you.

REMY LAI: Yeah. And sometimes people think that maybe you don't learn new words or something when you're reading a graphic novel, I think, because there are so little words in a graphic novel compared to a prose book. But the thing is, when you're writing a graphic novel, you have to be, I want to say, even more judicious in your words because you can only use so few of them. It's not like you can write and draw a 500 graphic novel. Your editor and your publisher would say no.

So [laughs] telling this whole complex story in this really-- what 200 plus pages with pictures? So you have to really choose your words carefully.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's a really good point too. Now, beyond your own fantastic graphic novels and the ones that you've mentioned already, are there any graphic novels that you think are important to include in a school library?

REMY LAI: I think we should include a wide variety of them, like from fantasy to non-fiction graphic novels. I find non-fiction graphic novels really fun to read. For me, they're easier to read than just prose. It makes it easier for me to take in information. Because not all kids would like the same books-- or rather, the better way to say it is, there's a book for every kid. So we can't just stock the contemporary graphic novels.

We should also have the fantasy ones and the non-fiction ones and things like that. But if there is one graphic novel that I would like stocked in a school library, one of my favourite graphic novels that I've read-- I reread it almost every year, at least once-- it's called 'Bone' by Jeff Smith. Yeah, that's my all-time favourite.

JADE ARNOLD: Right, I'll have to check that out myself because I haven't read that. But I think what you were saying there about all the different types of genres and different types of graphic novels out there is so important. I've just come across this graphic novel called 'Follow Your Gut', which is a graphic novelisation looking at your gut microbiome. It's essentially a biology textbook, but it's in graphic-novel format and it's so much more interesting to read because of that.

And it's a much easier way if you're looking for something to keep you entertained, whilst also learning a lot to learn about that. And I'd love for there to be more textbooks in graphic-novel format because then I'd actually want to read it instead of seeing it as a chore. [laughs]

Can readers look forward to any new stories from you in the future? Are there any projects that you're currently working on that you can share with us?

REMY LAI: Yeah. I won't have a new graphic novel out until, I think, '27. It's a middle grade one. It's about a girl who accidentally summons up a demon. It's a fantasy. But then signs of the apocalypse starts appearing all over her town and so she has to decide whether she should return the demon or not. [laughs] It's not horror, it's fantasy. Yeah. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds like so much fun. Well, I can't wait to see that. Are there any more books coming in your younger reader series?

REMY LAI: Not at the moment, no. No plans at the moment.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, we look forward to seeing your next graphic novel in 2027. And our final question for today, what are you currently reading, or what are you excited to dive into next?

REMY LAI: The latest one that I read was 'Thunderhead' by Sophie Beer, illustrated novel. So those of you who are interested in that-- and it's contemporary. So, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: That's a fantastic one to dive into. Well, I think there's been some fantastic recommendations in there. But, Remy, I wanted to thank you so much for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure talking to you about your books, from your spooky ghosts and hilarious sibling drama, all the way down to the heartfelt stories of friendship and identity and belonging. And I'm sure that teacher librarians all across NSW will be featuring your titles front and centre in their book talks.

And I have no doubt that even more students will be reaching for your books as they dive into the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. And hopefully, you've convinced a few adults out there to give graphic novels a try as well. So thank you so much for joining me.

REMY LAI: Thanks so much, Jade.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW, (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn. From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in.

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 14 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by the phenomenal Corey Tutt, a proud Kamilaroi man who's joining us today from Birapai Country. Corey is an award-winning author of 3 books that feature on the PRC book lists, is the editor of the 'Deadly Science' series and is the founder and CEO of the DeadlyScience organisation. He was named NSW Young Australian of the Year in 2020 and received the Medal of the Order of Australia in 2022. He's also an associate professor at the University of Western Sydney. Corey, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy day. How are you today?

COREY TUTT: I'm good. I'm in dad mode. And I can make dad jokes now because I'm actually a dad, which is fantastic. But look, I'm very excited to be joining you. And thank you for mentioning my books. And I feel thoroughly uncomfortable when someone reads a bio about me because I'm like, really, did I do that? Is that actually a thing? I'm also Young Australian of the Year. I'm now too old to be Young Australian of the Year. So every time someone mentions that, it just reminds me that I am approaching middle age.

JADE ARNOLD: Middle Age Australian of the Year in the future, I see.

[laughs]

Well, before we begin, I wanted to start out with a little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can defend your choices if you want to. You can just leave your answers stand as they are, if you wish. It's totally up to you. Are you ready?

COREY TUTT: Yeah, go.

JADE ARNOLD: Fiction or non-fiction books?

COREY TUTT: Oh, non-fiction. I need to be real, baby. I don't mind a good fiction book. But I need the facts. I'm not winning Trivial Pursuit with some love story, right?

JADE ARNOLD: You are definitely not. Physical books or eBooks?

COREY TUTT: I love a good physical book, but I'm actually an audiobook guy, which does not answer the question. But I'm more of a physical book guy. But if I have a choice, it's an audiobook.

JADE ARNOLD: Turtles or snakes?

COREY TUTT: Considering just 2 days ago I picked up a venomous snake, please do not pick up snakes, but I am actually a closet snake catcher. I'm constantly picking up venomous reptiles and non-venomous reptiles. And I've never grown out of it. So I'm a bit of a snake guy. But I also love my turtles as well. And to be honest, turtles are so underrated as an animal. They clean up our waterways. And they're like the Dysons and the Hoovers of the creek system. And snakes, they clean up all the rodents, which we don't want in our houses. And they all do a really good job.

JADE ARNOLD: Very important roles in our ecosystems. Would you prefer science lab or field research?

COREY TUTT: Oh, field research every day. The best thing about field research is that you can hide your shame. You can order some Macca's, and you can just put it in a bin, where you're not allowed to eat in a lab. Road trips are the best. Picking up pieces of tin are the best. But I also don't mind the lab, because if you're the only one working the lab, you could put some Luke Combs on and not get any judgement. Shania Twain, 'That Don't Impress Me Much', when you're in the lab and you get a negative result, that's a fitting song.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. So there's benefits to both it sounds like.

COREY TUTT: There's benefits to both. But if I had a choice, it's field work any day of the week.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. So onto the serious questions now. One of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC as we like to call it, is connecting children and young adults with stories that they're going to fall in love with. And so with that in mind, on this show, what we like to do is a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch.

So essentially, what I want you to do is imagine that there is a student standing between the bookshelves at their school or their local library or in a bookshop, and they're in the T section, and they see your titles on the shelves there. And it's your job to try and help them make the decision to take your books home. So for your most recent book, 'Caution! This Book Contains Deadly Reptiles', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list, could you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title, please?

COREY TUTT: Yeah. So I started my career off as a zookeeper. But what got me into zookeeping and got me so passionate about animals was a book called 'Reptiles in Colour' by Dr Harold Cogger. It was published in 1984. I got it in about 1996.

'Caution! This Book Contains Deadly Reptiles' is going to give you the party facts, right? Because when you go to a party and you're a young person and you're trying to fit in, if you can spout out a reptile fact that can wow the room, that is the perfect icebreaker. Talk about Ngaaybaay and how he breathes out of his bum, or how the bandy-bandy uses shutter shock to shock its predators. These are facts that animals have. And they are what connects us.

We get connected as humans by things we don't really understand. And that's why people are so fascinated with animals and fascinated by science, is that, as humans, we're constantly observing. We're constantly looking around us to understand the world and what we live in, because it is so complex. It's so simple, yet so complex. And our minds need to understand reptiles and mammals and birds. And even if they aren't your thing, there's something in there for everyone.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I think you've hit the nail right on the head there. And I think one of the things that I really liked about this book was that it gives us those cool little party facts. I feel like we're pretty good at knowing all the cool, fun facts about our mammals and our marsupials. But lizards and turtles and other reptiles don't always get as much of a cool rap. So this is the perfect book to give to a young reader who loves facts and loves reptiles and loves knowing more about the world around them.

COREY TUTT: It's also the gateway book into a career in STEM. If we can get young kids loving our animals, maybe that inspires them to write their own book about animals and find out a little bit more. And we need more kids understanding our wildlife and animals to help protect them into the future.

With endangered species and also species that are going extinct, it's really important now that kids understand that they can play a role in protecting these animals for the future, because older people, unfortunately, don't have as much life to live. But young people do. And it's really important that young people know that they play such a huge role in protecting these creatures.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. And one of the ways they can do that is by knowing about it. You obviously can't take action or work towards protecting species when you don't know about them to begin with.

COREY TUTT: Exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: Something that really stood out to me while reading this book was how you've really seamlessly woven in a lot of really rich First Nations knowledge into this book. Not only does every reptile feature its First Nations name, but you've also grouped each reptile by Country, and each new section opens with information about that specific area and the traditional owners. Why was it important for you to frame the book in this way? And what do you hope readers take away from that structure?

COREY TUTT: It's really important to me for people to understand the First Nations names of our animals, because for example, a brown snake isn't always brown. A tiger snake hasn't always got stripes. The names for our animals from Europeans actually don't make a lot of sense for what our animals actually are. And it's really important that young people, especially young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, they connect with culture with our animals. Because the more we can look into the past and learn about them, the more we'll know.

So there's particular stories of certain animals in language that uncover behaviours that Western science hasn't really quite got to know yet because the research simply isn't there. So by understanding First Nations perspectives with our animals and stories and language, we can understand a bit more about what these animals actually are.

For example, I worked with the Bundjalung Elders recently, and we rediscovered the name for rough-scaled snake. In their dictionary, the description was brown tiger snake. And then they had another name for tiger snake. But the close cousin of the tiger snake on Bundjalung Country is the rough-scaled snake. It's essentially a tiger snake with rough scales and it is brown with stripes and is exactly the description of that language name.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's wonderful. But I really like how so many of these names, their literal translations give you a much better description of the animals that they're trying to describe, as opposed to a brown snake, which can have so many different colours and forms and is really hard to identify just from that, so a really good naming system. And also, how fantastic to have those names in print.

One of the things I was going to ask you about next is that there's 2 names in particular that stood out to me as really special ones, the Kamilaroi name of the western sawshelled turtle, which is Ngaaybaay. Is that correct?

COREY TUTT: Yep, Ngaaybaay.

JADE ARNOLD: And that's the first time that word has been published ever. And you also worked with a Yuin elder to create the name for the broad-headed snake, Yuga-maga.

COREY TUTT: Yeah. And that was really important. That piece of work was super important because the broad-headed snake used to be found all over Gadigal Country. And the excavation of sandstone made that species extinct locally from that area. They're still found around Dharawal Country and Yuin Country, but they're so critically endangered.

But the whole premise of that snake is that yes, it's got a bit of a broad head, but actually, it looks like a baby python. And the people who have died of this snake have died because they have believed that it was a baby python. But Dharawal people and Yuin people have stories of baby pythons being venomous. And that story is directly linked to the broad-headed snake. But the language name has been lost and is now extinct. So that's really hard. So again, taking some of the Yuin language and making a name for it, using the definition of that snake being a false python was really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah wonderful. I wanted to know, what was it like being part of that process to work with Elders to either record these names for the first time or to create that name, and why preserving and sharing First Nations language through books like yours for young readers, especially when a book like yours will be the first time they've ever seen any of the 68 reptile names, why is that so important to you?

COREY TUTT: Working with Elders is actually easier than working with herpetologists. Herpetologists are worse than blackfellas to work with because blackfellas-- we're not one harmonious group, but we all want to see our culture survive and thrive. And language is part of that. So working with those Elders was really important. Working with the scientists, not so easy, because every scientist has an opinion. And sometimes, they've got countering opinions to each other.

However, I think that we're very lucky. We've got a lot of language holders and knowledge holders still left. They're dying at an alarming rate. But working with Uncle Warren Foster, I've worked with him on all 3 books now, and working with Uncle Ted Fields, working with Aunty Faith up in Yugambeh, there's almost an exhilarating moment when you're working with a group that they've got a dictionary, we're going through the dictionary together, we're going through the descriptions, they've probably got some names for some things, they don't quite know what the species is, but we're playing a game of memory where I'm pulling out photos and I think it might be this or they think it might be this. And then we hit a eureka moment when we find that, OK, that must be the reptile that that name is. That's a really special moment.

Then there's other ones like the turtle you mentioned. That's well known in our community what that turtle is. But it just hasn't been written down. To write that down is really important. And to find other lizards and snakes, like the land mullets, the largest skink on Earth, or second largest skink on Earth and the largest skink in Australia. It grows to about 70 centimetres long. It's massive. And Gumbaynggir people have had a name for the skink for ages. And to help them find the name for that skink in their language and then put that in the book was really important, too.

And then I guess the other thing as well is working with Wiradjuri people to find the name for the Cunningham skink. It's been classified after Professor Cunningham who first classed that species. And look, he was a great scientist, but this thing had a name before he came along.

JADE ARNOLD: That's such a fascinating process. And it must have been so exciting, but also quite a mission to get all of those reptiles identified and matched. And what a fantastic effort of research and consulting with community that you've done. So fantastic work.

COREY TUTT: Yeah, I kind of treat it to being like a forensic scientist. You're trying to find the evidence. And then you're putting it together and making a compelling judgement on that. So there's a lot of lizards and snakes that didn't make the book because at the time of writing and researching-- because this was a research project. It wasn't just a book. And that research went into the Taronga Zoo's ARC Centre that they've just opened. So you will now see Indigenous names on the reptile signs for the first time in their 150-year history because of this book.

JADE ARNOLD: That's wonderful. If readers loved 'Caution! This Book Contains Deadly Reptiles', what's another book or resource that you would recommend they explore next?

COREY TUTT: Oh look, there's so many. I'm a bit of a true crime nut. I love true crime. But I won't tell the kids to read true crime because it obviously will keep them up at night. But look, I like 'Sky Country' as well, by Krystal De Napoli and Karlie Noon. I tend to read more of the non-fiction books. So 'Bad Blood' about Elizabeth Holmes was a great book because it's about Theranos and Silicon Valley. I loved the book 'The Woman that Fooled the World', the Belle Gibson book.

I read so many books. But I tend to love the saucy non-fiction books a little bit. Because I think a lot, and I'm quite a deep thinker about things, if I'm choosing to watch a TV show or read a book, I kind of like silly stuff because it switches my mind off it. So when I was living in Sydney, I was living with 2 nurses. And we would watch 'The Bachelor' and then 'MAFS' when it first came out. I don't watch those things anymore, but I used to enjoy those things because they used to just make my brain turn off. They're so silly that I just-- it was a time to stop thinking. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: And I think that's such a good message, too, for young readers, is that there's often different purposes for reading. And if you want something like knowledge and you want to learn cool, fun facts, then your books are a fantastic starting point. But sometimes, we just want to read something that lets us escape and have a bit of a laugh and switch our brains off. And you can find all of those in a book, depending on what you're picking up on.

COREY TUTT: There's actually some really good books for some older readers as well. I really liked Rob Burrow's 'Too Many Reasons to Live'. That was a guy that-- he developed motor neuron disease. And that was a really inspiring book for me because his best mate actually ran ultra marathons to raise money for Rob whilst he was suffering from that condition.

And for you science nerds, 'Bring Back the King' was one of my favourite books by Helen Pilcher that came out in about 2018. And this is about de-extinction. So you would have seen that recently. There was this news article about them bringing back the dire wolf. The dire wolf is actually not entirely brought back; 1% of its DNA was sequenced into the genome of a grey wolf.

So look, that book's for younger readers as well. But it explains that we can fantasise about Jurassic Park and de-extinction. And yes, we can bring something back that is similar. However, it's the fantasy idea about bringing back a thylacine. It's not necessarily a thylacine. It's something that resembles a thylacine, but it's not what it once was.

And the technology is amazing because that technology in particular can be used for people that-- maybe they're a chance of developing some sort of borne disease, and if there's a way they can prevent that to prevent human suffering, then that's fantastic. But it should be, really, a last resort. Our initial effort should be to stop these species from going extinct in the first place.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to talk now about one of your earlier books, 'The First Scientists: Deadly Inventions and Innovations from Australia's First Peoples', which also features on the 5 to 6 book list. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this book?

COREY TUTT: The first scientist is about telling the true story of STEM in this country. Often, we see images of Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison wearing lab coats. However, if you wanted to see a true image of a scientist, they are young women. They are people of colour. They're people from overseas. They are exactly what this listener is. And they come in all different walks and shapes and sizes. That's what STEM is. STEM is innately human.

But for many, many decades, we have told people conditionally that to be a scientist and be a high profile scientist, you have to be an old, white male wearing a lab coat. And that's not to say that old white males wearing lab coats aren't necessarily good at science or they shouldn't be part of science. It's just not a true reflection of what STEM is in this country.

And Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have been doing STEM for 65,000-plus years. And if you're non-Indigenous, that's also part of your history. If you're born on this continent or you reside here, you should be proud of the fact that First Peoples on this country invented bread, the world's oldest structures. We have structures that are older than the pyramids. And not every Egyptian is a First Nations person from Egypt. But they sure as hell are proud of the pyramids.

JADE ARNOLD: That's such a wonderful selling point of it. It's this very rich, very eye opening book that I think I'd encourage every middle grade and teen reader and even younger readers, if they're feeling confident, to explore. You must have come across so many amazing discoveries and innovations while you were researching 'The First Scientists'. I know that I was constantly surprised when I was reading through the book myself. So I wanted to ask, was there one scientific contribution that particularly amazed or inspired you personally when you were researching?

COREY TUTT: Yeah, mainly around the bush foods. The kangaroo apple on Yuin Country and Ngunnawal Country, that's an antibiotic steroid and a fish poison, which is pretty cool. The bush ovens are loved in Wiradjuri Country, learning about how Aboriginal people heated up clay balls and cooked meals underground. Even now, I'm writing the second version of that book and learning about symbiosis.

So I learned about a really cool story from Yuin Elders around killer whales and the relationship between killer whales and Aboriginal people, and also non-Indigenous people. This relationship continued on right up to the early 1900s. And then a silly mistake from a non-Indigenous person ruined the relationship for everyone. It's really important that we reflect on even NORFORCE and forensic science.

This happened in our lifetime. Most of your parents at home or your teachers were born before 1999. That was-- the last Aboriginal tracker was employed by the NSW police force, then. So we were using trackers right up to the early 2000s. And so this isn't past tense. This is stuff that has still happened. And it's really important that people understand that the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are still using STEM. It's not a past tense thing. It's just-- it's taking a different format now.

So even up at Kiwirrkurra, the rangers are using drones to find bilbies. And these are-- they call them Ninu up there. They find them 6 seconds faster than Western researchers, which is really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, phenomenal. If readers are fascinated by 'The First Scientists', are there any books that you'd suggest that they explore next?

COREY TUTT: I really liked 'Australia's First Naturalists' by Lynette Russell. That was a really great book. Everyone sort of says 'Dark Emu', and I think 'Dark Emu' is really great. I really loved-- I believe it's called 'Dreaming Circles' by Paul Gordon. That is a really good book as well.

What I'd love young people to do-- if you live in a community where you've got an Elder in residence at your school, like an Indigenous person that comes to your school, which a lot of schools have now, talk to them, because sometimes there's local knowledge that is way cooler than what's in any book. Up here on Kattang and Biripi Country and Dainggatti Country, we have a lot of really powerful Elders up here, and I love going for walks with them. I love talking to them.

They have yellow wattle flowers and they're blooming this time of year. And that's generally a sign that the whales are coming. And that's really important.

It's important to see, when we talk about First Nations science, we have a habit of looking at things objectively, which is, like, a very narrowed focus. And that's Western science to a T. It's a narrowed focus. But if you look at First Nations knowledges across the world, they're more holistic.

So First Nations people in Canada, for example, they eat caribou, which is a moose-type creature. And during the winter months, there's not much vegetation, except for lichen. And lichen is toxic to humans.

However, what they do is they eat the caribou, and caribou are ruminants, so they have 4 chambers to their stomach, just like cows. But as the caribou eat the lichen, they detoxify it in their stomach linings. So the First Nations people of Canada knew-- and Yellowstone as well in America-- knew that caribou would detoxify the lichen and they could eat it.

But that's observation, and that's trial and error. That there is knowledges that are holistic because you're taking into account time of year, digestive tracts. And that stuff's really important to know. To survive this many thousands of years, you had to know a thing or 2 about what's around you.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. The next book of yours I'd like to talk about is called 'This Book Thinks Ya Deadly!', which features on the 7 to 9 list. Can you give us the pitch for this book?

COREY TUTT: This was my emo album. I had just come out of COVID. I had a punctured lung from Rugby Union. I ruined my honeymoon. I'd copped my first bit of bullying online.

Didn't really know what to do. I was pretty lost at this time, and I was looking for inspiration from other Aboriginal people. And I just started jotting down all the things that-- all the people I'd met.

And it was different to another autobiography. Like, autobiography, you focus more on a person's achievements. But I wanted to really break down why those people have achieved and make that normal for kids to read.

And for the most part, I hated the book, to be honest, when I first released it, because it was associated with all this personal pain. And the lesson for that is, when young people-- when you're feeling a bit sad or down, instead of getting angry and shaking your fist to the world like an old man, I tend to take my feelings and recycle them into something positive. Often, if I'm feeling really down, I've hit a wall, I will go and buy books, and I'll go deliver them to a hospital or a school. That's how I cope as a person.

But then I grew to love the book because I was in John Hunter, and-- I volunteer with an organisation called Captain Starlight. And Starlight obviously help kids that are unwell in hospital. And often kids that are unwell, they end up having a really negative experience with science because they are the science experiment.

Kids that have leukaemia or cancer, they're on red dragon, which is a chemotherapy drug. It's very, very strong. It makes them very sick. Their families are often there and they're just looking for a little bit of joy, a little bit of love.

And I go and do these science shows every year. I'm an ambassador for Starlight. I'll drive down to John Hunter, Randwick, Westmead, and I'll do a couple of year.

And I remember there was one little girl, Indigenous girl from Armidale. She's no longer with us, unfortunately. She gave me this book.

And part of 'This Book Thinks Ya Deadly!' has this page of why I'm deadly. And the Captains had wrote why this kid's deadly in there and stuck a photo in it. And she's like, hey, look, I'm in a book with Cathy Freeman. And all of a sudden, that book that was self loathing-- it was written from this pain I had.

I was trying to cope with the pain that I had with writing that book. It took on this whole new meaning. And it was like, oh, wow, I've got to get this book out. And it quickly became my favourite book because I-- people often say we don't need hope as humans; we don't need hope as Aboriginal people.

However, that's a false narrative, because when you're a child in hospital and you're just trying to get better, and your family's just trying to get better, hope is the thing that gets you through it. So that book was instilling hope into these people. So now I love it, because it's like, OK, that's the first book I give to someone. Because I had a guy, non-Indigenous guy visit the office yesterday.

And the first book I gave him was 'This Book Thinks Ya Deadly!' because he said he had kids. And you don't know what the background story of his kids are or who they are. But I know if they pick up that book, that's an opportunity for that kid to maybe find themselves in that book and see someone that's relatable to them. And it might be the thing that gets them through a really hard time. And that's really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. That's such a heartwarming story. It's so wonderful to hear how you've turned something from a very painful part of your life to something that is-- I wouldn't have known that reading through 'This Book Thinks Ya Deadly!' It's all these double-page spread of these phenomenal people who are doing amazing things in all of these different fields, from sport to art to literature to science to probably 7 other things that I can't remember to list.

And yeah, it is very inspiring and uplifting. And I think you're touching on readers being able to see themselves in it. Something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast is the importance of representation and being able to have books that allow students to see themselves represented in text, but also to see other people's lives represented in text.

And I don't think we've ever really dived in deeper into why that's so important. But it comes back to this idea of you can't see yourself in particular roles if you don't see other role models in that. And it might be the thing that encourages a young First Nations child, or even any student, to think, well, actually, maybe I could be an elite athlete, or I could be an artist or a scientist or get involved in STEM, because these people have, and that's a potential pathway for me.

Without that representation, that doesn't happen. It's such a fantastic thing for you to turn a difficult part of your life into. There were so many amazing and inspiring stories that you collected through 'This Book Thinks Ya Deadly!' Was there one person who really stayed with you or inspired you the most?

COREY TUTT: There's quite a lot, actually. I look at Aunty Beryl Van-Oploo from Redfern. And she's had a really tough time at the moment, so shout out to Aunty. She's lost a few people close to her. And I look at her life, and growing up in Walgett, she's my Aunty, and seeing the things that that lady has been through.

She left Walgett for an opportunity to go to Redfern for a job. She teaches young mums how to cook. She's now 80-odd years old and is still working and still cooking meals for people.

I look at someone like Aunty Beryl, and then I look again at someone like Deb Walford, who-- cuz-- she cooks for eveyone at the Koori Knockout. These people put themselves last-- literally last. And then there's other people like, obviously, Aunty Cathy.

And then you see even Tony Armstrong. The things that Tony Armstrong has to deal with as a young person. Take out the amazing success that man has and being an Aboriginal person-- even Brooke Boney, first Aboriginal person on mainstream TV.

The amount of stuff that those people have to carry just by being an Aboriginal person-- but yet they still turn up for work. They have to deal with a lot more than their non-Indigenous counterparts. And for me, I just get inspired by that ability to just be resilient.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. If readers love inspiring stories that they found in 'This Book Thinks Ya Deadly!', where do you think they should head next?

COREY TUTT: There are so many amazing books. I really get inspiration from just yarning with Elders. I love having a coffee with an Elder and just learning about their life.

Anita Heiss has really great books. I love Anita. Apart from him being in a bit of trouble lately, I really love Dave Grohl's book-- from the Foo Fighters.

That was a really good book. That was really interesting. And there's a lot of really great ways you can draw inspiration. It doesn't necessarily have to be from books.

But I think even Tracy Hall-- I just read her book 'The Last Victim', and she was a victim of a scam. And she wrote about her experience as being a victim of a scam. But it's the amount of courage that it takes to write about that, because I could understand that that would be something that would be really difficult for a person to write about.

Obviously, people know about Hugh van Cuylenburg and 'The Resilience Project'. I really liked that book as well. So did everyone else apparently as well.

But I tend to just draw inspiration from people I meet, and people I hear their stories. I know that Nedd Brockmann gets a lot of air time, but the guy puts his body through incredible amounts of pain to help solve the issue of homelessness. Every city in Australia, every single suburb has a homelessness problem where people haven't got a safe bed to sleep in.

So when I say to young people, yeah, you can find inspiration everywhere. You can be a kid from Dapto who sends books to remote communities and starts their own charity. Or you can be anyone you really want to be.

I also say this unsolicited bit of advice, is that the road in life is very short. We have, on average, 80 years on this planet.

And through those 80 years, you will go through potholes. You will go over roundabouts. You'll punch a few tyres. You will have the whole remit of experiences in life.

But there's 2 ingredients you need. There's passion and then there's purpose. And the third one, if you're really lucky, is just to be a really good person because the rest will solve itself.

And I think that as a young person, especially young people reading this, you're going to have really tough times. But the key to getting through those tough times is identifying those who love and support you and surrounding yourself with them. And if you don't have those people yet, because some people don't get that luxury straight away, you can draw inspiration from other areas in life, because life is so fragile and it is so quick that any bad time you have is only temporary.

JADE ARNOLD: That's such fantastic advice. You're also the editor of the 'Deadly Science' series, which is a growing collection of books that celebrate First Nations knowledge across science and the natural world. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for the 'Deadly Science' series?

COREY TUTT: So the 'Deadly Science' series is really important because they include the stories and photographs of kids in community that DeadlyScience supports. So these are the first ever books that include remote and regional Aboriginal students and Torres Strait Islander students writing their own experiments. Often, we pick up science books, and they don't include Indigenous people in them.

They talk about Indigenous sciences. But the whole notion-- you can't be what you can't see, well, what does that mean? A lot of people use that language, but they don't actually put it into practice.

This is putting 'you can't be what you can't see' into practice. So if you can see it, you can be it. And that's really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's so powerful. What do you hope young readers gain from exploring these books?

COREY TUTT: I want them to know about the communities like Jilkminggan. I want them to know about Redfern. I want them to know about Badu and the Torres Strait. Most kids that are in metro areas wouldn't have heard of these places, but it's really important to know about these places, because Jilkminggan, for example, you're paying 7 times the price for food as what you would in metro Australia.

Badu, they have a barge that comes every 3 weeks that drops off food. Some kids in Australia are really lucky to have what they have. By knowing about these places, then they can grow up to adults that help these communities in a more practical way. And I think that's really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. So powerful. For readers who maybe can't get enough of the 'Deadly Science' series, what's something else that you would recommend they check out?

COREY TUTT: Anything by Aus Geo. I love 'Australian Geographic'. I used to read the magazines religiously as a child, loved them, and I was like a school kid when I went to Aus Geo's offices for the first time. And they're a smaller organisation and what they were when I was a kid. But I would recommend anything from Australian Geographic because they're always really interesting books.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, fantastic recommendations. Now, you touched on this earlier when we were talking about the 'Deadly Science' series. But you're also the founder and CEO of an organisation called DeadlyScience, which has had a huge impact in providing STEM resources and support to schools across Australia. For listeners who may not know as much about this organisation, can you tell us how DeadlyScience started and the difference that it's making to students today?

COREY TUTT: Yeah, well, I was working in the lab down at the University of Sydney, and I was invited to a careers day, and I was yarning with other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids, and they loved the science talks I used to do. We called it DeadlyScience. And I got to a point where the organisation I was working with didn't really want me doing these science talks anymore, mainly because the kids loved them too much.

JADE ARNOLD: Good problem to have.

COREY TUTT: It's a good problem to have, but it was a tricky problem. So I ended up getting a second job, and I googled 'remote community schools in Australia'. And I jumped on the blower; I gave them a call.

And basically, I ended up finding a school with 15 books in its entire school. And I went to Dymocks bookshop, and I dropped $1,000. And then that turned into 8 trips of $1,000, and I ran out of money really quickly.

These schools just basically-- they needed resources. They needed books. They needed telescopes. They needed the things to make their classrooms to get kids into their classrooms because they didn't have a lot of resource, a lot of these really small community schools. They just needed stuff to support their children that were going to these schools.

And from there, I started a GoFundMe page, and it grew to visiting the schools. It grew to creating lessons for teachers. They included First Nations perspectives.

Now we've got 17 staff across Australia, mainly in Townsville and Port Macquarie. And we go and visit schools, and we deliver workshops. We have a Pathways program for young people to get them into STEM careers. We develop books, resources, kits with juvenile justice centres.

We have a program called Deadly Labs where we're making soap equitable in Indigenous communities. So a lot of soap's really expensive. So we're teaching kids how to make traditional bush soap, but also Western soap. And we're testing the polymers to prove to the children that traditional soap's just as good for you as store-bought soap.

So that has an added impact of every single kid in that family gets to take a bar of soap home that they've made, which means that everyone's using soap, which is really huge. And look, there's 10 diseases you can prevent by washing your hands, and these are prevalent diseases in these communities. So hopefully, if the hypothesis works, we can reduce some of the bad health outcomes of these diseases, and help these people overcome and prevent them from getting rheumatic heart disease, which kills a lot of Aboriginal kids.

JADE ARNOLD: That's so powerful. And it's amazing how something seemingly as simple and innocuous as making a bar of soap can have so many impacts, like obviously, that scientific process of going through that and using that knowledge. But also having students to be able to create something themselves and feel really proud of that and then to take that home and to have that benefit them in so many ways.

What a fantastic organisation. That is phenomenal. Thank you so much for sharing that with us.

Are you currently working on any new books? Are you allowed to give us a sneak peek? I think you hinted at one earlier.

COREY TUTT: I recently became a dad for the first time. And one of the things that I really wanted to do-- I grew up without my dad, just in case readers didn't know that. And that was really hard for me because I didn't know my biological dad at all. He left when I was a baby.

And for a lot of kids, that's really hard. And a lot of young men, that's really hard as well. So I ended up writing a baby book for my son called 'Come Home, Bigabila' with Irma Gold.

And that's more for me-- again, it's probably similar to 'This Book Thinks Ya Deadly!'. It's probably overcoming my sensitivities around growing up without a dad. How do you be a dad if you haven't had one? And for me, that's really important. It comes out in February, I believe.

And then I've got 'The First Scientists II', coming out next year. And I've been playing on words with that-- the science before it was science. And again, it's going to be a much more in-depth book than 'The First Scientists I', and the idea is to actually just move the needle again.

I feel like 'The First Scientists I' was such a-- it was an iconic book for the time, because it was the first ever Blackfella science book. And it challenged the notion of what children are seeing science as today. And I'm very lucky that that was-- that book won a menagerie of awards.

And to be honest, it's going to be hard as an author to try and replicate that. It's very difficult to. I've written a good album, and then number 2 and number 3 and not as good. But, you know, it's gonna be-- that's a really exciting book that we've got coming out, and that's going to be out in October, which is fantastic.

JADE ARNOLD: It sounds like those books are in very good hands, and we'll keep an eye out for both of those titles with bated breath and great excitement. Are there any amazing non-fiction children or young adults titles that you think our listeners need to know about right now.

COREY TUTT: Yeah, so there's a book by Greg Crocetti about termites. Greg actually works for me at DeadlyScience. And he wrote a book around the First Nations' relationship with termites.

And that's really cool. I loved it. There is multiple books out there at the moment.

There's 'Growing up on Wiradjuri Country', which is really important. That's a really cool book. There is, like I said, a lot of different books that I think are really great.

But it's important that you find your own DNA as a reader of what you find is cool. I say tomato you say tomahtah. I love reading anything really. I aim to listen to 2 to 3 audiobooks a week, and I read probably 2 or 3 more on that as well. so-- not so much that I'm a dad now.

Ross Moriarty's books, I love reading to my son, like 'Who Saw Turtle?' I've read that probably about 300 times now. And I always find it funny, because I'm cracking little side jokes to my wife about that book all the time.

And that's part of the reason why I wanted to write for my son, too, because it's really important-- that story is so important, for younger readers, especially for their imagination. As you get older, you can get more into the non-fiction stuff. I love true crime, but that's because I've got the mind of a 40-year-old woman.

Like, my nieces always tease me. They go, you're listening to the music that my mum listens to, which is my older sister. And I said, well, that's because it's good.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Look, I haven't hit the true crime podcast point in my life just yet. But I'm sure it's around the corner. I'm sure it's coming soon.

COREY TUTT: It really does come from a place of really just trying to understand the things that we don't understand. I don't really understand crime. And what goes into the mindset of a criminal is really interesting.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, you've kind of hinted that you're reading quite a lot a lot of the time. Are you reading anything currently? Or are you excited to dive into something next?

COREY TUTT: I'm actually reading a really interesting book at the moment called 'Unmasked'. And 'Unmasked' is about using genealogy materials to solve crimes from the past, so crimes that are a couple hundred years old. So for example, in America, there's a serial killer called the Zodiac Killer.

And the Zodiac Killer licked envelopes. And this is, like, 70 years ago, right? And they've got a brief DNA profile, so you can think of it like 10% of a thumbprint, right?

And what they've been doing is, some of these historical crimes, they have been putting them through ancestry.com and tracking down relatives of that person to solve the crime, which I find really fascinating. I don't really agree with the crimes. But I find that them using that technology really interesting, and it's got some ethical considerations as well around it. So it's actually quite interesting that law enforcement are using these techniques now to solve some of these historical crimes, which is a good thing that they're solving them. But also, it's an interesting way to do it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. That sounds fascinating. Corey, thank you so much for joining me today. I am sure our listeners, with young readers who love inspiring non-fiction will be racing out to purchase your titles for their library collections or feature them in book talks and many, many more students diving into your books as they complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge.

Your books really celebrate the strength and resilience and creativity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. You're just an amazing example of how storytelling and science can come together to form a stronger future. So thank you so much for spending time with me today to talk about your books.

COREY TUTT: Thank you so much, Jade. And if anyone wants to find out a bit more about DeadlyScience, you can follow us on social media. More importantly, tell your parents about DeadlyScience. Help us get out to more kids. It's really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely, absolutely. And for everyone tuning in, we'll include a full list of all of Corey's featured books, the books that he mentioned, and a link to DeadlyScience in the show notes for today's episode. You can find them on the 'Listen @ the Arts Unit' page, so be sure to check them out and share it with the young readers in your life. Most importantly, happy reading.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education, as part of the 'Listen @ the Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au. For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ the Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways, and skies where we listen, read and learn. From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in.

[page turning]

JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 13 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by Elisabeth, who is a teacher librarian and the Premier's Reading Challenge coordinator at a high school in the Newcastle region. Elisabeth is well known throughout the teacher librarian community for her stunning library displays and research-driven library resources and programs, including the SMART-ER reading program, which she has presented about at numerous conferences. Elisabeth, thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm great. Thanks, Jade. I'm a huge PRC advocate and a pretty big fan of this podcast. So, I am positively thrilled to be here chatting with you today.

JADE ARNOLD: I'm super excited to have you here. Before we dive into our interview, I thought it would be nice to play a quick little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options and you need to choose one of them.

Feel free to defend your choices, if you wish, or you can just stand on your answer. Totally up to you. Are you ready?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I am.

JADE ARNOLD: OK, series or standalone.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Series. All the way. I feel like the enjoyment of dipping back into the world is what draws me in. Although, the book hangover after a series, I feel like, is more intense than a standalone. But I'm there for it.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Physical book or ebook?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Physical, and I'm a snob, book snob. I go hard covers. So, I often buy a paperback, and if I love it, I'll get the hardback. I love the feel of it, the weight of it.

JADE ARNOLD: Your collector's trophy.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: [sighs] 100%. That's me.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Reading in silence or reading with background noise?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: It doesn't really matter. But I always find that I'm happy to sit in a cafe and hear the world around me, but be lost in it.

JADE ARNOLD: Some nice, soft background noise. Yeah. Bookstore or library?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm a big bookstore fan, like, huge. But that's because of all the fanfare that goes along with it, but also why I try to make my libraries as fun and engaging as possible.

JADE ARNOLD: They're very parallel spaces, aren't they?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Sorry, libraries.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Judging a book by its cover, yes or no?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely guilty.

[Jade laughing]

That's me. Everyone loves a good cover, and sprayed edges, and all of those things. I can't help it.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely, a special edition, especially if you're a hard cover collector.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yep, guilty. That's me.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. All right, let's get into the rest of our questions now. So, Elisabeth, I know you started out your career as a PDHPE teacher. What was it that led you to become a teacher librarian?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes. So, I always preface when I do talks a funny story about being a PE teacher, which I know we just talked about, because we're here in microphone in a room. And I tend to suffer from outside voice in the inside. [laughs]

And so, I preface that always. So, feel free to turn me down. So, I started my PE career and did a lot of work outside of PE. I got work in whatever KLA was available, and then found it really hard to get permanent employment as a PE teacher. And it became pretty clear that I was going to have to do something else, either different or retrain.

So, I went and did a master's in journalism and almost finished that degree, and then was like, 'Hmm, maybe it's not going to be a choice for me because of the information landscape,' and there was lots of 'are people going to read books or magazines or newspapers anymore?'

And so, then I thought, 'OK, we've got to do something else.' As an avid reader as a child, and someone who dabbled in writing as a kid, too, I thought, 'What could I do with my skills?'

Lots of jobs on the job feed for TLs back in 2018, 2017. And I thought, 'Yes, this is what I'm going to do,' and I did. I went and did my master's in education, in teacher librarianship, and totally the right choice for me. I love it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's amazing. And I think you're in good company, in terms of using your outside voice. Not a PE teacher, but definitely have been shushed in my own library on multiple occasions. So, I think there's a lot of TLs out there with good PE voices.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Now as I mentioned earlier, you're also the PRC coordinator at your school. Why do you choose to run this program?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: OK, I'm going to quote the PRC here, and I hope I'm going to do it correctly. So, the PRC obviously encourages students to read more books more often. So, that alone is a fantastic motivator.

The PRC challenge list also showcases a really terrific array of books featuring characters and stories from all walks of life. So, challenging students to read from this list means that students are also nurtured to read more diversely. So, that's another reason.

The challenge is also designed to celebrate student success. And I don't really know anyone that doesn't thrive on intrinsic or extrinsic motivation. So, I think the PRC does that nicely.

That's another one. And as a TL, I guess our charge is to encourage and develop lifelong readers. And it doesn't hurt to have a prestigious statewide initiative as my firm ally in this quest.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. Well, that's a lovely reason, and thank you so much for sharing that. Now something that's really closely aligned with the way that you run the PRC at your school is your SMART-ER reading program, which is a program that you've designed and is heavily informed by research. Can you tell us a bit about this program and what impact it's had on your students?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Super passionate about the reading program that I run, and I do affectionately call it the SMART-ER reading program, which will make sense as to why in a little bit, if you don't know anything about it. The program itself centres on student voice and choice, and fosters student agency through student-driven SMART goals. See there? See what I did?

So, the goals really form the foundation for the program and help to ensure that all students really are on an even playing field. A lot of high school students, particularly, are quite nervous about their reading ability. And so, this really doesn't focus on ability. It focuses on reader identity.

And that's one thing that I really like about the program and one of the reasons why I've taken that perspective on it, I guess. The goals are also a really nice way for me to chat with students about their reading journey and their reading identity. And so, it's a nice conversation in with the kids.

So, that is another reason why, I guess, I make those a springboard for the program. The ER part of the program focuses on evaluation and positive reinforcement. Students get personalised reading feedback from me.

I try to do it twice a term, in written form, and sometimes also in verbal form. And again, we chat about progress towards those SMART goals, and what they're enjoying, and all of those kinds of things. So, yeah, that's my program. I'm super passionate about it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's wonderful. And just for those listeners who may not be aware of what SMART goals are, that stands for specific, measurable, achievable, timely and relevant.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah, relevance to you. And it's the relevance part. That's the part that I'm most interested in, because when the students write down what their goals are, they write why. And that's the part I tell students I'm most fascinated about.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Yeah. And I think this reminds me a lot of the things that I would do when I was introducing the PRC to students at my school, back when I was in a high school setting. It wasn't as well worded, or explained to students, but it was always to set a specific, measurable goal that was realistic for them to achieve.

So, I would have some students say that 'I want to read 50 books this year.' And for them, that might be super achievable. But then there'd be other students in that class who would-- their specific goal would be, 'I want to read and finish 2 books that I actually enjoy this year, because I haven't read a book since Year 5' or 'Year 6' or whatever.

And having those very specific goals tailored to each student really is a good way to set that framework of saying, 'I don't think that you have to complete the Premier's Reading Challenge, or be as good of a reader, or as wide of a reader as every other student in this class. Your challenge is where you're at. So, choose something that will stretch you beyond what you're already doing, but is also still achievable.' Is that the types of goals you see students setting in your program?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: 100%. And one of the most popular goals that students create is just reading for enjoyment. And we talk about, well, how do we make that measurable? And so, one of the things these students do is a star rating.

So we say, if we rate this book a 4 or 5 stars out of 5, that's a good way to measure your enjoyment. And that's what we use. Yeah, you're right. You're on the money there. You could be my reading wingman.

[Jade laughs]

Wingwoman, even.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I think just having that framework to base it off and using that real specific language is just such a good structure for teenagers in particular. But even for younger readers in a primary setting, to just have that knowledge that their teacher librarian doesn't expect them to read exactly the same amount of books as they do, or the person sitting next to them. It's about what they, as an individual reader, are going to get out of this, and also challenging them to extend themselves and to improve their reading skills, whilst also having a good time while doing it, which is what we really want to see with our readers.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: What advice would you give to someone who is coordinating the PRC for the first time?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Over the years, I have discovered that organisation, capitalise that, is key. I personally like to use paper logs as a method to the madness. All of my students keep book trails, that's what I call them, in paper form.

It's a great way to measure their progress towards their individual SMART goals, but also a really good way for me just to quickly jot down where they're at, especially because I like to give students the greatest opportunity to achieve the challenge. And because you can start reading for the next year when the challenge closes, we can actually, I want to say, get a head start. It's not. Like I said, I want to give my kids the opportunity to succeed.

So, we start recording those books in Term 4 for the following year. And the paper logs is how I do that effectively. So, that's one suggestion, I guess, I would give others.

The other is keeping note of key dates and log as you go, because Term 2 and Term 3 are quite manic in the teacher world. Like, Book Week and National Simultaneous Storytime and all of those things.

JADE ARNOLD: Everything's happening all at once.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Hmm, and then, before you know it, the PRC closes. And yeah, it's quite stressful. So, keep note of key dates and log as you go.

The last one I think I'd probably talk about is the displays. Displays really, personally, in a high school setting, even a high school setting, helped promote the challenge and celebrate student achievement. And I always tried-- I find a way to make them interactive.

That, to me, helps to draw kids in. They like to see their name, or something that they've added, something like that. And maybe just one more, the labelling-- the books in the library with PRC stickers. That's really helpful.

JADE ARNOLD: As a just really quick way, particularly for those students who-- they're so close to hitting that goal and it's maybe a month before the challenge closes. And they're just like, 'I just need to read one or 2 more books.' And having that visual selection cue where they can go and go, 'OK, I'm going to pick all the books with that PRC tag, pull them off, and see if they're the types of books that I want to read,' and definitely speeds up that process.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. And most students choose to read and browse in person. So, it's that one less hurdle, I guess.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all of the library catalogue is fantastic. But so often, I found, that students love having that tactile experience of picking up a book, looking at the blurb, but then also flicking through, seeing how big the book is, seeing what the typeface is like.

All those decisions go into whether or not they want to take that book home. And so, I always had a pretty significant percentage of students who would exclusively go through and reserve books through the Oliver library catalogue, but a bigger proportion of students would prefer to browse physically. So, having both options, there is definitely a good one.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I agree. And we do have an OPAC at our school and hardly anyone uses it. It's definitely in person.

JADE ARNOLD: I just want to come back to something that you talked about in that last question where you're talking about your displays and your interactive displays. I happen to have seen photos on your social media about your latest display related to the Premier's Reading Challenge.

Can you tell us a little bit about it? And I know that this is a fun challenge when we're in an audio medium. But can you tell us about your display that you're using this year for the Premier's Reading Challenge?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. So, I'm going to stipulate the fact that my idea is a springboard off your idea, which is to create-- if you haven't had a look yet on the PRC website, or on the PRC Instagram page, there are these mini books that you can create. So, definitely check that out.

Mine is a larger version of that. So, I've taken some larger books and folded the pages in such a way that the books remain open in some sort of accordion-like fashion. I've then strung them up with fishing wire, literally fishing wire from the ceiling, so that they're upside down and they mimic the incredible artwork by Matt Ottley in his little book, 'Jellyfish'. I think that's what we're all calling them.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. That's what he calls them, too.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Good. OK, excellent. We're all using the same lingo. And the idea is that as every student finishes the challenge, they're going to be invited to create a tentacle that hangs from the book to give it a personalised touch to add to this installation.

I do like to do these immersive displays. And they'll hang from the books. My hint to anyone who's followed me is to attach them with paperclips, because I am maybe a perfectionist and I like to have absolute control over how things look.

And so, I want to be able to move them and have the flexibility of that being fluid. So, that's what I'm doing. I'm super excited about that. And the challenge for my students is to make the tentacles sustainable.

I'm huge on sustainable displays. I like to-- again, if you've seen some of my displays, I like to create things out of cardboard, or things that are just going to end up in the trash, or upcycle things. So, the challenge is make them sustainable.

We've been donated a huge amount of yarn. And my library SAO is quite crochet savvy and has figured out a way to make these amazing, twirly, crocheted tentacles. And I've tried it, too. It's not that difficult. But anyways, we're going to challenge students to even do that if they want to do something a bit different. But yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's wonderful, and such a great initiative, and a really good way to get students engaged in your library. And every time they come back in, they see how the space has changed slightly. And just seeing that progress over time, I think, is a really good way to motivate students who might be, in the back of their mind, thinking, 'Yeah, I'm going to do the Premier's Reading Challenge.'

But every time they come in, and seeing that going, 'Oh, that's right,' it's that visual reminder of 'I want to be part of that, I want to see myself involved in that display.' Especially in a high school setting, I think it's a really good way to avoid that embarrassment that teenagers often get for seeing their name in the limelight.

I remember the first year I did the Premier's Reading Challenge, I had what was called the Hall of Fame, where I had these Hollywood stars. And each would be a Hollywood-style star that would go up on the wall with the student's name on it.

And some students really did dig it. But also, I did hear it being referred to as the Wall of Lame by a few other students. And I was just like, 'OK, I need to remember that this is a high school context and maybe change up how I'm doing this,' because I've got to be realistic here. Teenagers are going to act that way. So, 'How can I make sure that I still have their names acknowledged in a way that makes it feel a little less cringe, I guess, for teenagers?'

And that's what pushed me to do a book tree before, where, similar to your jellyfish idea, where I'd have a tree drawn on these glass walls that I had in the library. As every student finished the PRC, they would get a leaf. And the leaf would have their name on it, but it was much, much smaller, much harder to see unless you went really, really close up. But each leaf had a different colour that corresponded with each class.

So, at a glance, you could see which class was ahead. The students got to put the leaf up themselves. They got to choose where it went. And it was much more well received by students than the Hall of Lame, I guess.

And then the other one that I've done, which is now a resource on the PRC website, is the bookshelf. And again, in a library, having a bookshelf grow over time with books that are-- with student's name on it-- also generally makes that a lot more palatable for high school students. So, yeah, if you're out there thinking of doing a similar idea with your display, I would maybe avoid doing a Hall of Fame with teenagers.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I think I would be devastated if someone said that.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Look, it was a learning moment, right? We all have them. [laughs] Look, teenagers can be--

ELISABETH DUBOIS: They can be so mean.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, but they can also be absolutely wonderful. And those same students who called it the Hall of Lame ended up doing it the next year and ended up having their leaves put on the tree without complaint. So growth, progress.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes, yes, absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: What are some of the things that you try to prioritise in your school library to make reading accessible and engaging and interesting for your students?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: So, I guess the first thing I try to do, and I guess we all try to do, is normalise reading. Everyone is a reader. I'm really big on that. So, I use the term 'reader identity' a lot.

And I always talk about us going on a reading journey, and so, trying to break that stigma of reading being a negative thing, that's something I really try to focus on. So, I guess in terms of increasing accessibility to books, no loan limits.

I don't have a loan limit. A lot of kids come to my high school and say, 'What is the most amount of books I can take home?' And I say, 'You know, you could take a box home.'

We go into the print room and we grab a reflex box, and we fill feel that bad boy up. I literally have kids that do that every holiday. It makes me so happy.

So, no loan limits increase accessibility through student-driven acquisition. The library is for them to read from, so let's make it about them. Let them choose.

Obviously, the reading program is a great way to increase student access to books. What was the next one? Engagement.

Reading events and initiatives just like this one makes it meaningful. Reading response activities that draw on creative literacies, that's something I've been doing in the last couple of years, and makes reading more meaningful and fun.

Reading milestone resources that I've created. They have been super engaging, too. I'll explain what it is, because I know what I'm talking about, but you don't.

So, last year, I did it through a book bingo-type style resource where each of the little tiles had a reading milestone written into it. So, the first one was like, 'I wrote my SMART goal for this year,' which you get a stamp for that.

One other one might be 'I read my first 100 pages.' And so, what I did find was that students started ticking off the bingo card themselves and were actively trying to achieve things. And some kids are like, 'Well, I think I might just do one line.'

But then when they did one line in, let's say, Term 1, they were like, 'Hmm, what else can I do?' So, that's another way that I've been working towards increasing engagement. And the last one-- making reading interesting with displays, which we've talked about.

I'm big on sharing what I'm reading a lot. I do it all the time in conferences, or even I'm just talking at a staff meeting. This is what I'm currently reading and my reading goal. That's important to share that I also have a goal.

My 'must read' posters, I do those twice a year for the first 6 months of the year and the second 6 months. I put them on the circulation desk. And as kids are waiting in line to speak to me, or if kids come with friends a lot, I call them their bodyguards.

But the bodyguards often check out the 'must read' posters and this generates conversation and interest. So, yeah, that's something else that I do.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. With your 'must reads' poster, what goes into selecting what books go onto those posters?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Hmm, that's a good question, because obviously, I haven't read them. So, I should stipulate they're books that are being released in the year ahead, so I haven't read them. I do read a lot of reviews.

I scour a lot of online bookstores to see what's coming out. I then go onto Goodreads and see if anyone has read an advanced reader copy, and has some great things to say about it. Obviously, if the author's written some great things before, we can certainly assume that this one is going to be amazing, too. But yeah, so, there's some of the ways that I go about it, compiling these lists. I make big lists, and then I just chop them down a bit.

And diversity. In the past, I kind of stuck to novels. But the last few have been quite diverse, and I try to put in some graphics, or bios, even, to cater for all my readers.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and just generate some excitement about what's coming out and reflecting the fact that there's going to be new releases throughout the year in the library. Come back and check them out in June, July, August, whatever month it is that they're coming out. That's a fantastic way to remind students to keep coming back to your library, that it is a changing collection, and it's always growing.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes, absolutely. And also, for me personally, it's great to know how many books I should buy.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Because if I have 5 kids waiting for a book, or saying they want to put their name down on the reservation list, then I need more than one copy.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. That's a really good collection development tool as well.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: What is your role look like as a teacher librarian beyond the Premier's Reading Challenge?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: The role of the TL varies from school to school. And so, I try to think that I work really hard at accessing all parts of this role, because I know, at the end of the day, staff at the school are always changing. They're going to leave with, hopefully, a solid understanding, which I'll get to that in a minute, of what I do, and then hopefully be a teacher librarian advocate at their new school, if there isn't one there.

So, obviously, we've talked about developing a collection that reflects the needs and interests of the school community. That's pretty pivotal. Developing a reading culture, which I do through being a reading coordinator at my school.

That's significant. We want kids to leave school and continue to be avid readers and engage with reading. Research is, I guess, a natural part of my role, navigating the physical and the digital landscape, looking at intellectual property, which is really important right now, particularly in light of AI and the landscape, the changing landscape, referencing, source quality, all of that kind of stuff.

I'm also a DE coordinator at my school. Last year, I had 18 students. This year, I have slightly less than that. But that takes a lot of organisation and my time.

Study skills, which a lot of kids come to the library. No one gets taught how to study. So, I've spent a little bit of time researching study skills, specifically looking at designing effective study notes and then using them effectively.

So, I kind of teach it in 2 ways. Tech support. We always have to be across technology and provide that tech support. Collaboration with staff. I try to do that as much as possible to create and deliver lessons.

And then one of my favourite things is creating digital artefacts. I like to do that to increase student access to resources, whether that be physical or digital. But yeah, I guess that's just a little bit. There's probably 1,000 other things, but off the top of my head.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's a very multifaceted role. And as you said, it varies depending on what, often, your school needs, and what the resources at your school are. But I think you've hit a lot of the core elements on the head there.

And I think one of the things that has stood out to me, in terms of the work of yours that I've seen, is just those resources that you've put together that help both with senior research skills and senior study skills. Like your CAARP or your C-R-A-P scaffolds that are designed to walk students through how to analyse a resource and trust whether or not it's worth taking information from. Fantastic ways at growing students' abilities to find information that's really relevant in a landscape that is awash with information.

And also digest it, and be able to make it useful for them in whatever project they're taking on. So, those are fantastic resources, and such a critical role that the teacher librarian plays within a school. One of the key aims of this podcast is to assist teacher librarians, teachers or parents in helping their students or children find their first, or their next good read, because it is often, as you would know, so overwhelming for students when they're standing in between the bookshelves and trying to figure out what they want to read next. As a teacher librarian, how is it that you go about connecting your students with their next great read?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I always joke about with students that-- I think maybe all TLs do. This may be just not a me thing, but that's my superpower. I'm a bit of a reading matchmaker. I make joke of that.

Other than the 'must read' posters and things like that we've already discussed, this year I've created personalised reading recs. There's a reader identity form in students' reading logs, and it literally says, 'Mrs Dubois recommends' on the bottom of it.

And then, over the course of this year-- it'll take me the entire year, because I've got close to 400 students in the program-- I look at their book trails and I draw back on conversations I've had with them, and I write them personalised recs. So, that's a new thing.

JADE ARNOLD: That's phenomenal, but I imagine incredibly time consuming.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Oh, look. The whole thing's time consuming. But the enjoyment, I mean, watching them uncover new books from the recommendations and opening up new conversations with a student has been super powerful in developing that rapport, and, yeah, just getting them to read something different. So, that's what I'm trying this year on top of everything else. And it's kind of fun. But it is-- you're right. It does take a lot of time.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. But I think there's nothing more satisfying, as a teacher librarian, than making a recommendation for a student, and having them try it out, and come back to you and say, 'This was amazing, thank you so much,' or 'What's the next book to read? I loved this one so much.' There's something so fulfilling out of that, especially when that student may have previously said to you that they're 'not a big reader', or they 'don't really like reading'. You're like, 'yes.'

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Oh, it's a win. Yeah, that connection that-- we live for that. I think all teachers live for that moment.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Now I think every teacher librarian has encountered a student who doesn't enjoy reading. What are some of the strategies that you use with students who don't see themselves as readers?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: So, I think the first thing I do is we don't talk about books. We talk about them individually. So, I often say-- well, let's just call this student Max.

'Oh, that's OK, Max. You know what? I'm going to tell you a little secret. I don't like reading everything too. I don't like reading biographies.' And usually kids are quite horrified to know that I'm open about that kind of stuff, that yeah, I don't like reading bios, also don't like reading sad stories. So, I just don't read them.

So, firstly, it just means you haven't found the right book yet. Right? And then we go into, 'So, what is it that you do like to do? Let's talk about that stuff.'

So, we look at hobbies and interests, TV shows and movies, and we talk about that. And I'll use that as a springboard. So, this student said, 'I just like to play football. I wanna be a football player.'

And I was like, 'Cool. Let's use that.' And so, I was like, 'Well, if we had to read, what would be something that you would read? Would you read facts? Like, do you want to know more about football, or tactics, or skills,' and they're like, 'No, I'm pretty good at that.'

'Mkay. That's cool. I see you. I see you. What about stories about football? Would you like to know--?'

'Yeah, OK. We could do that.'

'Cool. What about true stories or made up ones?'

So, we go down this little path. And we went over to their fiction selection first, that part of the collection, and I pulled a few books from the shelf.

I want to say 'Rugby Warrior' is the go-to for me by Gerard Siggins. That book, I believe, was written by someone who wanted to do just that, is engage disengaged readers. Billy Slater books, we'll go and have a look at those.

Essentially any rugby book I could possibly find, and we did that. You have a little look. He wasn't vibing those either.

'OK, Max, how about we look at the bios?'

Hmm. So, we went over to the bios and I pulled out JT's bio, the YA edition. Ah, interested, but was a little taken aback by the size of the book. So, then I thought to myself that on this shelf, I've got 'Rise: The Sam Thaiday Story'.

I hope it's called that. It's not that thick. And then the student was looking at the book. And he goes, 'You know, Sam Thaiday and I, our family comes from the same town.' He goes, 'Did you know that?' And I was like, [chuckles] 'Max, if I knew that, we would have started off right here, my friend.'

[laughter]

I didn't, but this is amazing, right? This is that moment you're talking about. I was like, 'I think I'm on to a winner.'

JADE ARNOLD: You found the connection.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: And yeah. He sat down. We did 10 minutes of sustained silent reading and he was engaged. He was doing all of those things that we look for when a kid is reading. Was actually reading, not just flicking through the pages.

And I thought to myself, 'I think we've made a good match here.' So, that's kind of where I go. For anyone else that's really picky, I just put them in front of a computer and I say, 'Find a book you will want to read, within reason.' But I'll get it and put it in the collection.

And so, that's another strategy I do use, and it works 99% of the time. And for that last 1%, audiobooks. Audiobooks are amazing, especially all the new ones.

The authors have this incredible ability to narrate the story and take on all these different characters, and you become completely immersed in the world. So, I drive quite a ways to work, and I'm constantly listening to audiobooks.

And any time I come across one that's amazing, where the author is amazing, like the one who does the 'Nevermoor' series. So, shout out to that, if you wanted to listen to it.

Yes, audiobooks is the last one, and that's my last resort. I don't usually have to be there very often. But if I do need to use that as a strategy, it's definitely in my tool belt.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Wonderful. I think you've touched on a lot of things that will resonate with a lot of both primary and high school teacher librarians. I have worked in both selective schools and comprehensive schools. And one of the things that surprised me about that switch is how many students at both types of schools just don't enjoy reading.

You make that assumption that if you're at a selective school, students will enjoy reading more, and that's not necessarily the case. So, having those strategies under your belt that you've discussed is really important, regardless of what school you're working at, because, unless you're incredibly lucky, any school that you work at as a teacher librarians, you're going to encounter students who don't see themselves as readers.

But approaching those students with that really positive mindset of, 'OK, well, you think you're not a reader.' But actually, no, it's just a case of 'you haven't found the book that's right for you yet, let's work together on this journey,' and helping them through that journey to find the titles that they will actually really enjoy, and be able to see themselves as readers. For that student who's reading football-inspired stories, he probably wouldn't have seen himself as someone who was a reader before those moments, but then, actually, getting into those titles and finding a lot of enjoyment in that is so important.

And that comes from that positive attitude and that persistence on both the teacher librarian's and the student's end. It's effort that needs to be put in on both ends. But it's a really important and empowering conversation to have. What guides your book selection when you're developing your collection?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: So, I was actually given the incredible opportunity to develop a collection from scratch and I learnt a lot from that. So, I guess the first part is literary staples. All of those books that are timeless classics and modern classics, like 'The Hunger Games', all of those books. That's kind of my first one. If it exists on the top 100 YA or children list, it's probably going to be in the library.

Reviews, which we've talked about a bit, I do like to rely on those. And I rely on them heavily to make book selections. I can't read everything. That's what I say to students.

But I do try to read as much as I can, because even though it's got a great review, sometimes the subject matter may be a little too mature. In bookshops, I've noticed a lot of people putting books on the shelves that are not children's or YA, and I pick them up thinking, 'Ooh, this looks good,' and then I read it and go, 'Ooh, this was misplaced.'

JADE ARNOLD: I think there is-- particularly in fantasy, there's a lot of either confusion or crossover, or maybe it's a deliberate marketing attempt where you'll find what I would consider, and what you would probably consider to be new adult fiction sitting in the young adult fiction section. So, new adult fiction being targeted at readers who are 18 plus starting to delve into more mature themes.

Maybe it is a little bit spicy, or even just looking at an older protagonist going through different types of experiences. But yeah, there's been a number of times where I've also seen that, and I have to bite my tongue to go up to the bookshop staff and say, 'Hey, I don't think this is actually a YA title.'

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm audible in that respect. I will say out loud, for anyone to hear, 'This book doesn't quite belong here.' But yeah. So, I do try to read. And if a book is very popular, I will read it to see what all the drama is about.

And I have uncovered some amazing reads through that process, but also, I use the term 'saucy' read. So, if a book has lots of requests on it, or is being read quite widely, and in some element of excitement, which I'm all about, I kind of question why and I read it.

So, patron-driven acquisition is something else that I've spoken about and I use, in terms of developing my collection. Curriculum mapping, which-- it's amazing, but it's time consuming. The reading program.

Lots of kids bring books from home and I always leaf through them. I have a little look. I read their logs. I'm like, 'This one looks good. I should totally get that.'

That's something else. The reading program is great for collection, development. And diversity. I try really hard, well, one, to read diversely myself, but to ensure that the collection really does reflect a huge selection, or a cross-section of students.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Reflecting your student diversity and also reflecting the diversity that we see in the Australian population. It's so important for students to be able to see themselves in the books that they're reading, and also see the lives of others in the books that they read.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah, absolutely. And we've come quite a long way in that representation in books. I know that when I was a kid reading, this might show my age, but I read a lot of 'Sweet Valley', Francine Pascal.

And it was all kind of the same kind of stuff. And whilst it was great for me, I can see that it wouldn't have been great for everyone. And quite mature in content, too, in retrospect.

But that was all that was available at the time. But now we've got a huge cross section of books. So, I do try very hard to, yeah, develop across a whole spectrum.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. What are some of your library's most popular books, and why is it, do you think, that they resonate with your students?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Last year, surprisingly-- I say 'surprisingly', because if you know this series intimately, you may be surprised. 'Keeper of the Lost Cities' was the most popular series.

Those books are really thick. As you get into the book 5, 6, 7, you're talking about 200,000 words in one of those books. And book thickness is one of the biggest deterrents. When I show students books, they zero in on the thickness of that book, and straight away I know I've lost them.

Whereas this series is lengthy and long. It's like 11 books long. And the only reason why that book was popular is because students were reading it and recommending it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. And I saw the exact same phenomenon at my last school library when I started there. I hadn't heard of the series and I had this young girl ask constantly, 'Is it in yet? Is it in yet? I've put a request in,' and I'm like, 'Yeah, yeah, OK. I've got the first one. We'll see how it goes.' Seven kids reserved it within the first week. I'm like, 'Oh my gosh. I have to buy the rest of the series now.' It's a long series and it takes up almost half a bookshelf.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: But that shelf was never full because it was in constant rotation. And these students would be coming in saying, 'Oh, which student's got it now? OK, I'm going to go ask her where she's up to and remind her she's only got a week left so that she better return it on time, because I'm next on the list.' It was this phenomenon. But yeah, so, obviously very popular in your library, too.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. And yeah, you've hit all the points there that I would have touched on myself. That is, the biggest motivator for that series was student recs. I don't think if I alone was recommending it, it would have been anywhere near as popular.

But yeah, kids have the power here. Same with 'Powerless' series. I don't if you've read 'Powerless' by Lauren Roberts.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I haven't read the whole series. I just read book one. Again, it was another one of those books that everyone was, is, reading in my library. And I was like, 'Mm-hmm. Let's have a little look at this one.' And it wasn't saucy at all, which I was really happily surprised to find.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, because from-- coming back to judging a book by its cover, just the cover illustration is very similar to other types of books that often contain that spice, or that sauce in it.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: Aah, may not necessarily be appropriate for younger readers.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Absolutely. And so, that one was a nice crossover between 'The Hunger Games' and 'Defy the Night' by Brigid Kemmerer. And I can see why that one's popular. Same thing. I think maybe social media may have something to say for its popularity. But also, it's student recommendations.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And if students are reading it and they're enjoying it, and it's ideally appropriate for the age group that's reading it, then great.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yeah. Yeah, right. Anything by Holly Jackson. I don't know what it is about teens and murder mystery, but they're all about it.

So, Holly Jackson is in high circulation, as well as Jenny Han. Jenny Han's got 3 series. I've got multiple copies of her books on our shelves.

Again, never there because they're always out. And buddy reads, even. Lots of students like to read them together and dissect the plot, which is kind of cool. That's another reason why I like to buy multiple copies of books, because students like to do that. Girls like to do that, I find, personally, in my library, anyway.

JADE ARNOLD: And you've probably touched on a lot of these titles, but in your opinion, what are some of the top must-haves for a high school library?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Like I said, I'm a fan of this podcast, and I thought I might have to do something like this. So, I'm not gonna lie, I've spent a bit of time thinking about it. And I also wanted to maybe try and touch on things that maybe people haven't read, but maybe I've done terribly at that fact.

But I'm going to start with Bridgid Kemmerer, which I did mention before, 'Defy the Night' series. It's a YA fantasy. It's got diverse characters in it. It's set in the kingdom of Kandala.

So, if you're all about kings and queens and kingdoms and such, like I am, then this book is for you. The main character is Tessa. And I think it was written during COVID.

And so, there is some sort of pandemic element in here where people are tragically dying from this awful disease, and Tessa is going around and healing people with her incredible skill that she's got. But it follows her. And like I said, it's got 'Powerless' vibes.

This book, it was written before 'Powerless', though, and I don't want to spoil anything. But it's amazing. Oh, it's a trilogy, and lots of cliffhangers.

And what Bridget is great at is developing characters that you feel connected with. And definitely lots of those characters in this book. Sorry, I've got 2 others.

Vanessa Len's 'Only a Monster' is a fantastic book. Australian author Vanessa Len. The main character, Joan, she discovers that she's a monster. And so, all of a sudden, we know that she's kind of evil.

I mean, I don't want to spoil anything, but she discovers she's a monster and it's not a good thing. Right? And so, she has to grapple with that, that concept that she's probably not a nice person.

It's got time travel in it, which I quite hate. But in this book, it's done so well. And she travels back to 1990, which [chuckles] is pretty amazing. [laughs] 1990 technology, 1990 fashion.

If you want a throwback, this book is definitely for you. I don't want to give away any spoilers, but the third book, 'Once a Villain', comes out later this year in August. So, if you want to get on board, get on board. Get into it so that when August comes around, you can get 3.

The last one is also a trilogy. I don't think I would be doing Lynette Noni any justice if I didn't mention one of her books, 'The Prison Healer'. I love all of Lynette Noni's work, and just about anything-- I mean, everything she's written is amazing.

She's obviously written the 'Akarnae' series, which I hope I've said that correctly. Brilliant. Brilliant series. Again, characters that you really connect with. This is that as well.

'The Prison Healer' features main character Kiva Meridan. She is in a death prison, which is gruesome. And that's where she kind of works there, as well as being a prisoner herself. And we find out over the course of the novel how she ends up there.

But she is charged with keeping the rebel queen alive. She's just arrived, this rebel queen. She's not in a good state. And we follow her.

So, it's amazing. It's great. Actually, the-- book 1 is amazing. I did it as a school book club book for whole school thing at my previous school, and we had 50 staff and students reading it. Incredible. It was really good. So, I'm a huge fan of her.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Those are some fantastic titles. And I'm fairly certain, from memory, that that series was just added to the PRC book list on the 9plus book list. So, fantastic one to pick up for teen readers who are a lover of fantasy and mystery and intrigue. And on a similar note, no podcast would be complete without asking you what you are reading currently or what you're excited to dive into next.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Well, I just finished reading 'Sunrise on the Reaping' by Suzanne Collins. So, if you've been in 'The Hunger Games' world, you know what you're signing yourself up for when you read these books. Right? Heartbreak, just be crushed.

And so, I knew what I was getting myself into, but also I didn't. I wasn't prepared for it. And I divulged earlier that I don't like sad books, so this was gut wrenching.

Amazing, though. I read it when another student was reading it as well. And she was ahead of me. We were able to debrief daily and as a TL, this is amazing. I live for these moments, too.

And she would just give me tidbits and insightful thoughts, too. I'm just in awe of her. She's a great reader. So, I just finished that and it was amazing.

I'm about to crack open 'Ice Apprentices' by Jacob North. It's a debut novel. It's a middle grade fantasy. I hear there's some sort of magic school in it too, high school of some sort.

I'm excited for it, because, again, I'm trying to read more books by male authors that feature male protagonists. I'm hoping this one is going to be a winner. I'm sure it will be.

Also excited to read 'Silverborn' by Jessica Townsend. I think everyone is. We've been waiting a very long time.

JADE ARNOLD: A very long time.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Aw, I'm pretty pumped about that. And hello, Lynette Noni. She has a new novel. A romance.

JADE ARNOLD: A romance novel, right? Yeah.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Yes. 'Wandering Wild'. And I'm going to wait till I go to the US to buy a hardback copy. I spied on her Instagram that there is one available in the US. But no doubt I'll purchase a paperback and then it will be shelved with all the other amazing titles by her.

Yeah. So, that's what I've read and what I'm excited to read. What about yourself?

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, OK. Well, I obviously am about to dive into 'Sunrise on the Reaping'. I am part way through 'Unhallowed Halls' by Lili Wilkinson, her latest dark academia fantasy title, which is-- it's very vibey at the moment. It's set in the Scottish moors.

It's at this very exclusive boarding school for rich kids who've done wrong things. And there's no technology allowed. And then dark things start happening. So, I'm enjoying that one.

I'm also reading-- I can't remember the name of the title, but I will put it in the show notes, the follow-up to the graphic novel 'Go With the Flow', which I'm really excited to get into.

I'm reading 'Villain', which is a middle grade adventure, potentially, series. I don't know. I'm 2 chapters in. Are you picking up that I'm a chaos reader from this?

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I love it. I'm also picking up-- that makes me feel good, because I don't remember what I read sometimes, too. And I would have literally just finished it and a student will say, this bit or this character. And I really am like, 'I just read that, but I can't remember.'

And sometimes I think maybe I'm getting old and my memory is not amazing. Yeah, no. I'm feeling you, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And then I am also finishing up the audiobook, I'm almost finished, of 'The Invocations' by Krystal Sutherland, I want to say. Very dark, very gory, but very enjoyable.

And I'm fairly certain there's maybe 2 or 3 others that I have on my bedside table that I dive in between. I've got no idea, other than that. But those ones are what I'm reading currently, or I'm about to read.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm in awe of all of the books on the go. That's not me as a person. I'm 1 Struggle Street otherwise.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, see, I have different parts throughout my house. I've got my reading chair in the lounge room, I've got my couch in my office, which is next to my bookshelves. And I've got my bedside table, and I have to have a book there.

Because if I sit down at any point and I go, 'Oh, I want to read. OK, this is right here.' Whereas if I have to get up and move around the house, I will forget that I'm doing that, and then find myself doing something else, like stripping out my linen closet.

So, that's my reading strategy, have books available all the time. I've got an ebook and an audiobook on my phone. At the moment, I've got 2 audiobooks going at the same time. Don't recommend that.

Can't remember the title of the second one that I'm listening to. But I like to give myself plenty of opportunities to find just a random situation to be reading in.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Amazing. Well, thanks for sharing that with me. I now also--

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] It's the first time I've been asked. I'm like, 'Oh no.'

[laughter]

ELISABETH DUBOIS: I'm always adding to my TBR. I know yours is probably as crazy as mine. It's just every time I read one, I add about 5. And I've just-- you've just inspired me, Krystal Sutherland. Yeah, you've inspired me to add another one. Yeah, so, thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you so much for joining me today, Elisabeth. I have no doubt that our teacher librarian listeners will have been inspired by your enthusiasm and your deep knowledge, and will take away so many tidbits to incorporate into their own professional practice as a teacher librarian. And for our parents listening, definitely your conversations about how you speak with young adults about their reading is such a great tool for them as well. So, thank you so much for joining me.

ELISABETH DUBOIS: Thanks so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

JADE ARNOLD: For all our listeners, we've included a full list of all the featured titles we've discussed today in the show notes on the 'Listen @ the Arts Unit' page. You can use this to help track down titles in your local bookshop, or your school, or local library, and help share them with the young readers in your life. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on 'Between the bookshelves'. Happy reading!

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ the Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish,' composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 12 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by bestselling middle grade author and champion of Australian children's literature, Allison Tait. Allison writes under the pen name A.L. Tait and is the author of much-loved historical adventure series including 'The Mapmaker Chronicles', 'The Ateban Cipher' and the 'Maven & Reeve Mysteries'.

Her more recent standalone titles, 'The First Summer of Callie McGee' and 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot', bring her trademark mysteries into a contemporary setting with heart and humour. She's also one half of the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast alongside teacher librarian Megan Daley and a driving force behind the Your Kid's Next Read Facebook community, as well as a vocal advocate for the power of stories in young people's lives. Allison, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

ALLISON TAIT: Well, I'm feeling like a champion now that I've heard that introduction. Thank you so much for making me feel so good.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: As well you should. And it is greatly deserved. Before we get started with the questions today, I just wanted to warm up with a little bit of This or That to get to know you a little bit more. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 options, and you need to choose one of them. You're welcome to defend your choices if you like, or you can just stand by your initial answer and give us no more context. It's completely up to you. Are you ready?

ALLISON TAIT: Yes, I'm ready.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Series or standalone?

ALLISON TAIT: Series.

JADE ARNOLD: Ebooks or audiobooks?

ALLISON TAIT: That's really tough. I think probably ebooks, only because I can whip through them faster. Narrators do not always read at the pace that I would like. And I always have them on at least 1.2.

JADE ARNOLD: I bump mine up to at least 1.5. You're not alone.

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, good. Excellent.

JADE ARNOLD: Writing in silence or writing to music?

ALLISON TAIT: Silence every single time, always. No music. I cannot allow myself any distractions at all. I like the deep, dark silence. And I actually preferred, particularly when my children were young, the deep, dark silence in the middle of the night, because it was the best silence I could get all day.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Would you rather be in a castle or on a ship?

ALLISON TAIT: In a castle every time. Yeah. I'm not really a fan of things that move constantly. Yeah. I'm a little bit like Quinn from 'The Mapmaker Chronicles' in that way. Wouldn't be his choice to get on a boat, and yet there he is. So, yeah, definitely castle.

JADE ARNOLD: Secret passage or secret identity?

ALLISON TAIT: Hmm, interesting. I've always really liked the secret passage behind the bookshelf in castles. Secret identity-- I think passage. I think identity would be hard to keep up. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. One line, it all comes undone.

ALLISON TAIT: Exactly. And I think I'd really probably struggle with that. So, yeah, secret passage.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Well, thank you for that. That was a little bit of fun. Let's get started with your books now. Allison, as you're probably very aware, one of the key goals of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is to help young people find the books that they'll fall in love with. So, we like to ask the authors that come on this show a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch.

So, I want you to imagine that there is a young student standing in between the bookshelves in their school library. They're unsure of what to borrow. Or maybe it's their bookshop or their local library. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot', which appears on the Years 5 to 6 book list, to help convince them to take it home?

ALLISON TAIT: 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot' is a coming-of-age mystery story in the spirit of 'The First Summer of Callie McGee', which we also need to talk about. Willow is a capable country kid who finds herself transplanted to the city and feels like she's landed on another planet. But when her plan to get herself out of there as quickly as possible puts Willow in the middle of a mystery, she forms an unlikely friendship and finds new purpose. Can Willow solve the mystery and find room to be herself, or is she just digging up a whole lot of trouble? Read it and find out. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: That is a fantastic pitch. I think you're going to have a lot of people racing out to grab that one with that description alone. And it's really captured the heart of that story. But I wanted to ask you-- Willow is this really headstrong, determined character, but also someone who feels really out of place after moving from this remote station in the middle of Australia to the inner city. And in the author notes, you mentioned that she was loosely inspired by your own experience of moving. How much of you is in Willow?

ALLISON TAIT: You know, I think every author will say this. There is always, somewhere in a character, a tiny piece of you, because there's a connection. And that feeling that I had when I moved from the Northern-- I was 10 years old, and I was moved from the Northern Territory. I was living in Alice Springs at the time. But I'd been up in the Territory for most of my life.

And we moved to, in the first instance, a small beach village, a surf village on the NSW South Coast. And that sense of-- I mean, you know-- it wasn't even as big as Willow's, because she's gone right into the centre of a big city. But it was just that sense of feeling completely discombobulated because the rules of engagement have changed around you. You haven't changed. Everything you know hasn't changed, but the feeling that you don't quite know how to find your way into a group of friends.

And I was suddenly-- like, my dad, who had been a surf lifesaver when he was younger, is suddenly dragging us to the beach. Like, we've come from Alice Springs. And we're suddenly at the beach. And of course, we're near the surf. So, he wants us to learn-- I mean, we could all swim, but he wants us to learn to manage the surf.

And the place we moved to at that point is called Culburra. And Culburra has got this wild surf beach. And on this wild surf beach is where they hold nippers. So, my dad decides that we all need to go to nippers so we can learn how to manage all this stuff properly. And I just remember standing on this beach in my little pink singlet, being told I have to throw myself into the sand to grab some stick that was there, and watching these waves pounding against the sand, and just thinking, 'I don't even know how I'm going to do this.'

And so, I think a sense of that. And you only remember the moments from your childhood that were big. Like, if you have had a childhood where you pretty much went and did the same thing every day, and you went to school, and you went through your school with all the same people, and you did all that stuff, your childhood becomes just this nice blur of fun times. Right?

When you have big things happen to you, that's what you remember. And that move at 10 was, I think, one of the biggest moments of my life. And so, that feeling of change and that feeling of having the rug ripped out from under me, even though I was safe in the bosom of my family, don't get me wrong, it was still that sense of, 'I just don't know how to go on here.' And it took me quite a few years to figure it out, if I ever did. I don't know if I ever did-- not really. And that's sort of-- so that is part of Willow. Willow taps into that feeling of, 'I just don't know what these people are all about.' [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. I can really pick up the threads there of when you're talking about how the rules of engagement have changed. Like, right at the opening chapter of this book, Willow is at a school fair. And there's this bull-- bull? Cow?

ALLISON TAIT: Runaway calf, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Runaway calf. It's a calf.

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, runaway calf from the petting zoo that-- everyone's freaking out. They don't know what to do. Willow just goes, 'Oh, OK, I will fix this problem,' takes some rope from--

ALLISON TAIT: I'm going to rope this calf. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Takes a rope from the fairy floss stand line and brings the calf under control. And I'm sitting there, reading it, being like, 'Oh my gosh. Is this superhero story? Is Willow just this crazy talented girl that's just going to go from strength to strength?' And then everyone turns around. And it gets received really negatively. Her cousin who she's moved in with criticises her. And she goes back to get her fairy floss. And they're like, 'You stole my rope. How dare you?' And she's just completely like, 'Oh, how have I just made a mistake from day one?' And my heart just went out to her so thoroughly.

ALLISON TAIT: I think it's just that thing of-- I loved writing that scene because I could clearly picture the whole thing happening. And it's that whole thing of, like, when we go about our ordinary days, and we do the things that we do, the things that we do are just normal. This is what we do, right? So, whatever we do every single day is how we live our lives.

Willow has lived in a place where she has learned a whole range of skills that you need to know when you're out in that place. So, she knows how to drive a car. She can ride a motorbike. She's a very capable country kid. And if you have met those kids, or you've seen those kids, you know exactly what they're like. They're just very down to earth. This is what we do.

So, she finds herself in a place-- she's right in the inner city, which is a very, very different cultural-- it's the same country, but it's a completely different cultural background. And so she just does what she would do. And everyone else around her goes, 'That's animal cruelty.' And she's like, 'Oh, no, it's not.' But in this place, that is how it is perceived.

And the idea, actually, for that scene and for some of Willow's character came from watching a parenting show. It was a reality TV parenting show that was on a year or 2 ago. And I didn't actually ever watch even the whole show to get this idea. It was more in the ads. And they had a set of parents from the inner city, Melbourne or Sydney or somewhere, and they had these parents who were from out west somewhere.

And of course, they were just talking about their daily lives and what these children can do. And they know how to kill a snake. And they know how to do whatever. And the inner city parents were just horrified by the notion that these children would be doing this kind of thing. But as the country parents said, 'Well, it's survival. You either know how to kill the snake or you don't, and that's the end of it,' you know, sort of thing.

And I just really-- that struck me, that, again, it was that notion of, you do what everyone around you is doing, And that's your normal. Well, it's not normal for everyone else. And so, this idea that we all have to live our lives a certain way, actually, Australia's a big country. And we all do things differently in different places.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. There's also this lovely mix of mystery and friendship and creativity woven into the story. What was the message that you hope readers take away from Willow's journey?

ALLISON TAIT: I think what I want them to see is that if you are true to yourself, and you dig into what you are all about, you will find your place. Even when you feel like there is no place for you, if you are all about what you're about, and you stick with that-- I mean, obviously, you've got to soften your edges a little bit. And Willow definitely does that, because she does have scratchy edges. It's one of the things I really love about her, is just this no nonsense, 'Why would you do that?' sort of thing that she has going on.

But she does soften that. And she does learn from that. But at the end of the day, we get to the end of the book. And the heart of Willow Bright remains the same, right down where it counts. And I think, by doing that and staying true to herself, she finds her place. She finds her community. And she finds that one spot in the inner city where she can be herself. And I think that that's really worth working towards. That's the kind of message I'd like kids to take away from it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I loved how Willow obviously went through that character development and had to really think about how she was talking to the people that she would consider her friends, because she's used to not talking to other people her age. She's used to just dealing with adults. And obviously, it's that real different interaction.

But I also loved how, part of who she was, she also shared with the friends that she ends up making. And so, it's this nice little narrative, where she goes through a slight change, but also, she changes the people around her and helps them see things from a different perspective as well. And that was so lovely.

ALLISON TAIT: I talk about Willow like she's a person, because to me, she is. I have been living with Willow in my head for quite some time now. But she's grieving. She's grieving the loss of her home, which has been taken over by a bird sanctuary, which I loved. And she loves the fact that the birds have a home. But she doesn't like the fact that she doesn't have one as sort of like a byproduct of that.

She's grieving the loss of her mum. She lost her mum 7 years ago. And her mum has remained on the property. She's buried on the property. And so, there's this sense for Willow of grieving that, the loss of her mother, all over again. And she wants to go back to where everything was as it was. And I think we always have that sense of, 'I'm very uncomfortable right now in the present. I want to go back to where I felt good.' And I guess it's that thing of learning, too, that sometimes there's no going back, and you have to move forward.

JADE ARNOLD: And it'll be uncomfortable for a bit. But at the end, it can be OK.

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah, that's right. Yes, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: If a reader finishes Willow Bright's story and wants something similar, what would you recommend they reach for next?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, gosh. We are so lucky in Australia. We have just got so many brilliant authors creating middle grade novels that hit that sweet spot of, 'I'm trying to figure out who I am and I'm not quite sure where I'm going.' And there will be a book to help. And Nova Weetman is someone that you mentioned that-- I cohost the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast with Megan Daley. And we are big fans of Nova Weetman.

We talk about her books a lot because she writes the feels so well. It's about the feels with her. And I think a book that probably taps into the feels that are similar to 'Willow Bright's Secret Plot' is her book 'The Edge of Thirteen', because I think that cusp of turning over into your teens, which is where Willow is as well, is very much a spot where we really start to think about who we are, and what we want and how we're going to navigate this big adventure that is growing up. And I think Nova Weetman just does that so well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a fantastic recommendation. Let's talk now about another of your recent standalone novels, 'The First Summer of Callie McGee'. What is your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this one?

ALLISON TAIT: 'The First Summer of Callie McGee' is a mystery story about growing up, figuring things out and solving the puzzle of who you are. Twelve-year-old Callie is about to start high school and wants to reinvent herself into someone better. But with one week of the school holidays left, she finds herself in a holiday house, a crowded holiday house on the south coast of NSW with the family friends, the friends that you are friends with because your parents love each other.

How do you become someone new when you're surrounded by people who know you well? If you're Callie, you set out to solve the mystery of who's breaking into the holiday houses at Sawyer's Point and find a lot more than you bargained for.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's a fantastic description. And one of the things that I really loved about this book is, you've got the main character, whose actual name is Calliope-Jean, and she really wants to rebrand herself. And so, she's trying to make this new name that she's picked for herself. And she's trying to struggle between, should it be Callie? Should I be CJ? Who do I want to be known as as I go into high school?

But all the adults in this holiday home that she's stuck in are just so-- and especially her mother-- are just so set on sticking with the same name that she's always had because they still see her as the same girl. But she's really wanting to rebrand herself and restart her identity as she starts high school. And I loved that balance in this book between nostalgia, mystery and this sense of coming into your own in that really liminal space between your childhood years and your teen years. What was it that sparked the idea for Callie's story?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, Callie's been with me for such a long time. It's one of those-- it's funny how characters-- sometimes you'll have a character without a story. You'll just get this idea about this person. And sometimes you'll have a place without a person. And it takes a few different things for it to come together.

So, Callie actually came to me-- the story came from this setting. So, I had some friends who used to have this double-story, 1970s, brick holiday house in the most beautiful part of the world. So, there's a town on the South Coast called Gerroa. And we used to go there with the family friends. But I'm the parent in this particular situation. And I used to watch my boys. I've got 2 young boys-- well, they're not young anymore. They're now 21 and 18. But at the time, they were young.

And just watching them try to integrate with these people that they didn't see a lot of, but when they did see them, they were expected to get on with them, because we all got on as parents. And then my friends sold the holiday house. And I had so many great memories of it. I just said to them, 'I'm going to write a story set in this house one day.' And they were like, 'Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course you are.'

Anyway, so, I decided I would. And I sat down one day to write this story because I was so inspired by the place. And I thought to myself, so when you start writing a story, and particularly when you've got a setting like that, which is this gorgeous little village with this 7-mile beach of stretch of white sand, and it's just a stunning place, I knew it was going to be in a crowded holiday house. I knew there were going to be family friends involved.

So, then I start to think, 'OK, who can I bring into this house that is going to be the most uncomfortable person in the house?' Because that's what you want from a character. You don't want a character who's comfortable. You want a character who's uncomfortable, because people who are uncomfortable tend to do things that they wouldn't normally do.

So, then I've got Callie. And I know that she's an only child, because no one is less comfortable sharing a bunk bedroom with 4 other girls than an only child. And she's on the cusp of going to high school. She's been nerdy Calliope-Jean Jean Maree McGee the whole way through high school, because her mum is always like, 'We named you after your grandparents and-- your grandmothers. And it's a beautiful name. And we're going to stick with that.'

So, they call her Calliope-Jean. And she's looking around her. And she's looking at kids who are cool. And she wants to be one of those people. So, playing with the name, for me, it's like a shorthand of the various stages that Callie goes through-- the person she thinks she might want to be, the person she might end up being, the person she actually is.

And so, as I kind of workshop through the names, and as she workshops through the names, she eventually comes to a resting place of where she's happy, where she's comfortable. And we get there by the end of the book. But I loved spending time with her. Her mother-- I think-- I talk in the back of the book about, Callie's mum is one of those quite anxious mums who makes their kids learn to swim a kilometre just so that mum can feel happy.

And as my poor children will attest, that was me. I had them in squads for years until I was comfortable that they could get themselves, you know? So, you're kind of-- you're putting a little bit of-- there's a little bit of me in Callie, in some ways. But there's also a little bit of me in other characters in the book. And I just took that setting, twisted it a little bit, added bits to it.

And when I go to schools, I always talk to kids about the fact that you don't have to reinvent the wheel to create a great story. You can take the things that you know. And you can turn them into something new. And one of the best ways to do that is to put someone new into a setting that you know. So, that's what I did with Callie.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's amazing. And there's also some really good writing tips there for any budding writers out there, which I know that we're going to get to later in this episode. What should readers try next if they really connected with Callie's quiet strength and her journey to figuring out who she is and maybe that layered mystery at the heart of her summer?

ALLISON TAIT: Again, it comes to me. It's not necessarily a similar story per se, or a similar character, but it's about that feel. And I think that someone who writes beautifully in this kind of space is Emily Gale. And she's got 2 books, one called 'The Goodbye Year', which is set in a Grade 6 kind of a timing for her character, so similar time. I mean, Callie is sort of at the end of the summer holidays, about to go to Year 7. This is about saying goodbye to Year 6, but similar kind of feel.

And she also has another one called 'The Other Side of Summer', which involves a big change, and also just that idea of coming into your own. And I think, either of those-- Emily writes a beautiful book. Interestingly, she and Nova also write historical timeslip stories together, 'Outlaw Girls' and 'Elsewhere Girls'. And they are both also excellent. But they have a historical feel as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful recommendations. And just for our listeners, all of the books that we talk about will be included in our show notes to help you track them down. So, make sure you check those out after listening to this episode. Your earlier books have a more historical setting, but are still, at their core, focused around these really iconic characters and solving mysteries. Let's start with 'The Mapmaker Chronicles', which appears on the 7 to 9 book list. This series throws readers into this high-stakes race to map the world, packed with sea monsters and sabotage and unexpected heroes. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, I love talking about this series. This was the series that made me a children's author. And this was the series that really helped me to find my voice as a writer. So, 'The Mapmaker Chronicles' is an epic fantasy adventure story about a race to map the world and a boy who really doesn't want to go.

Fourteen-year-old Quinn is happy with his life on the farm. But The King of Verdania wants a map of the world. And due to a lifelong secret, Quinn is chosen to participate in a race to secure the prize. But the Verdanians aren't the only ones seeking a map and the power that goes with it. Nobody knows what lies off the edge of the map, but Quinn is about to find out that it's more than anyone ever imagined. Dun-dun-dun!

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, I love that. I love your-- you've got such well-polished book pitches for your titles. It's fantastic. And I think it really captures the mystery and the real reluctant hero that you see in this series. And I wanted to ask, Quinn's journey is really this-- one of self-discovery and bravery and big questions about knowledge and power. What sparked the idea for this story, especially given that you hate being on ships yourself, and what did you hope your readers would take from this adventure?

ALLISON TAIT: So, again, as the first book for middle grade readers that I ever wrote, this was one of those things that came out of nowhere, really. It actually came from 2 conversations that I had with my son, Joe. So, Joe is now 21, as I said. But he was 9. So, Joe is one of those kids that was a big fan of a head-hurting question. So, my life with Joe was always incredibly interesting. We were like, 'What is real?' We were like, 'Why is the sky blue?' All the way from the age of about 2 onwards.

And I dragged him outside one night in summer because I thought we were going to have a mother-and-son bonding moment and look at the stars together. So, that was my goal. Joe's goal generally with these things is somewhat different. So, we are standing outside. And I am looking out into this epic night sky, twinkle twinkle, stars for days, absolutely beautiful. And I'm thinking, 'Joe's going to remember this moment for the rest of his life.' [laughs]

And parents are so delusional, aren't they? Anyway, and Joe turns to me, and he says-- [laughs] he says, 'Mum, how far does space go?' And it's one of those things where, if you've got this sort of imagination like I do, you're standing there, and you're looking out into this epic night sky. And you start to think about the fact that they are sending out rockets and probes. And we are-- I'm not scientific. We are like 8 billion light years from Earth. And they still haven't found the edges.

And then you start to think about what might be at the edges. And it makes your head hurt. So, I said to him the only thing a parent could say under these circumstances, 'No one knows. Let's go inside and google that,' because that's what we do, right? So, we found out that no one knew. And he didn't know. But if no one else knew, that was fine. So, we were good.

And then, the next night, we were reading a 'Horrible Histories' book. And we were both enormous fans of the 'Horrible Histories' series because they are so funny. The boring bits of history are taken out. There are so many entertaining ways to die in a 'Horrible Histories' book.

And so, we were reading one about explorers. And they were getting shipwrecked and falling overboard and being eaten by things. And it was all very hilarious for us, not so hilarious for them. And he turned to me, and he said, 'Mum, how did they map the world?' And I said, 'Well--' you know, not as head-hurty for me because I am also the weird mum who's going to drag you through dusty old exhibitions about maps because they're beautiful. They are so beautiful. If you look at those very old maps with the angels blowing wind in the corners--

JADE ARNOLD: And all the sea monsters.

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, the sea monsters and the mermaids. And they are just beautiful, and they-- I just love the fact that they show us not just what we knew about the world in those days, but what we did not know. And I said, 'Well, they had to go. They had to get in their ships. They had to sail out onto those endless oceans--' pretty sure they were going to die in some entertaining way-- entertaining for us, not so much for them. But 'they had to go'.

And I said to him-- I just had one of those mum inspiration moments-- and I said, 'Well, they would have felt the same way that we feel when we stare out into space.' So, it was those 2 conversations coming together, not knowing where the edges were, but having to go to find out if there was anything out there. And just in that moment of those conversations, and I said to him, 'Oh, that would make a really great-- [laughs] really great book about mapping the world, a race to map the world.' And he was like, 'Yeah, you should totally write that, Mum.' And I was like, 'Yeah, I don't write for children.' [laughs]

So, I parked that idea for about 6 months. And it wasn't until 6 months later that I sat down and thought, 'You know what? I'm actually going to see if I can do this,' because I'd never done it before. 'I'm going to see if I can. I'm going to have a crack at it.' And it was just the most fun that I had had writing anything for such a long time, forever, ever. And I had blasted out the first draft in about 6 weeks. That's how excited I was by it. And so I thought, 'I think there might be something in this.'

JADE ARNOLD: That's a phenomenal story. And I love also how there's that real deep connection to those moments with your son. And that sparked this series.

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, absolutely. You can imagine, can't you, how much he loves the fact that I'm going out to schools, telling that origin story over and over and over again. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, yeah.

ALLISON TAIT: He's like, we need a new story, Mum.

[laughter]

It's very funny.

JADE ARNOLD: I can imagine. [laughs] Next up is 'The Ateban Cipher', which features on the 5 to 6 book list. This duology begins with a mysterious manuscript and a boy raised in a monastery who suddenly finds himself on the run. What's your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this story?

ALLISON TAIT: I'm just going to say, I love this series. This is one of those ones where it's 2 books that I absolutely adore. I love the question at the heart. I love everything about it. So, I'll give you the pitch. Why would you write a book no one can read? When 14-year-old Gabe is handed a mysterious book by a dying man, he receives just one instruction. Take it to Aidan.

Gabe is hurled into a quest that takes him beyond his monastery home and into a world of danger and adventure. As he seeks to decipher the code and find a mystery man who may not even exist, Gabe learns that survival must be earned and that some of life's biggest lessons are not found in books. Gabe finds himself questioning everything he knows about right and wrong and wondering if he'll ever find a way back home. He also discovers that the biggest secret of all may be his own.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, very mysterious. I love the sound of that. [laughs] But there's this really rich sense of mystery in this book. You've got these secret codes. You've got lost identities and dangerous truths. What was it like, as the author, trying to come up with all these codes and ciphers and weave them all into the plot? How did you go about that?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, that was a challenge. I have to make a firm confession at this point. And if you are an educator out there listening to this, block your ears immediately. But I don't plot my books. I don't plan them. I just kind of get a question. And I started this one with just this question: Why would you write a book no one can read?

And it was sparked by a tiny newspaper article I read. And so, we're talking a few years ago now, because it was actually in print. And it was about a very old illuminated manuscript called the Voynich manuscript. And the article that I read was about the centenary of the discovery of this book, which was found in an attic in Poland. And it was one of those things where it was a cipher. So, it was all written in code.

And for 100 years, at the time of this article I read, people-- academics, scholars, historians, linguists, like, smart people-- had been trying to read this book. No one had ever, and I think, even to this day, has ever read the Voynich manuscript. No one actually knows what it's all about. And I got to the end of that article. But I absolutely love illuminated manuscripts for the same reason that I love old maps. They are just stunningly beautiful things.

So, I got to the end of this article. And all I could think was, 'Why? Why would you write a book no one can read? What could it possibly be? What could be so important, you had to write it down, but then you had to lock it away so that not everyone could figure out what it was all about?' And obviously, there was a key to the Voynich manuscript at some point. But it's been lost over time. So, I had this question. 'Why, why, why? Why would you write a book no one can read?'

And the other thing that I had-- and again, a question and a feeling. I'm all about the question and the feeling. The feeling was, I remembered when Joe, my oldest son, was 2. We had taken him overseas. And part of the trip was that we had gone to Ireland. And I wanted to see the Book of Kells. So, the Book of Kells, very old illuminated manuscript, which they open one page. And I had seen it when I travelled overseas on my own in my 20s. And this was me going back. And I'd seen one page.

They only open one page a day. So, I'd seen the one page. And so, I wanted to go back and see another page. [laughs] So, I've now seen 2 pages of the Book of Kells. Very exciting. But I just remember the feeling of standing in front of that book and wanting to take it home. I just wanted it so badly. I'm not someone who's covetous of things, necessarily. But there was just something about that book that had my mouth watering. And I just wanted to-- like, 'I'll just put it under my arm.' I didn't. You'll be glad to hear, I didn't do that. But I remember that feeling of wanting that book.

And so, when I read about the Voynich manuscript, I had that question in my mind. 'Why would you write a book no one can read?' I remembered that feeling of wanting the Book of Kells. And I set out to write myself an answer to that question. Why would you write a book no one can read? Great question, right? Super excited by myself, loving myself sick at the very concept, because the question also gave me a setting.

I knew I had to start, at least, in a monastery, because that's where these things were created. And then I'm looking at my character. And I'm thinking, 'I'm writing middle grade. I need my character to be about the right age, about 14.' So, then I'm researching, because even when you write fantasy adventure that's not quite history and is completely made up, you are also researching to make sure that it's grounded. You want to make sure that it feels real.

So, I'm looking at, 'Why? Why would a 14-year-old be in a monastery?' And then I read about foundlings. And I read about the fact that a lot of monasteries and abbeys and convents had a box out the front. And if you couldn't look after your baby, you popped your baby in the box and put the box through the wall. And then the monks or the brothers or whoever was on the other side would raise the baby in the church.

So, that's when I knew why Gabe was there. So, Gabe's never been outside the walls ever, never. So, he's given this book. And at this stage, we don't even know that it's all written in code. We don't know anything about it. But because I know that the best way to get a story really going, again, is to make my character uncomfortable-- so, if Gabe has grown up inside the walls, surrounded by men, I need to get him outside those walls as quickly as possible.

He's got this quest. He's got to get this book to Aidan. He has to look after it. He's got other people who want the book in the same way I wanted the book. Right? In the same feeling I wanted the book. So, he goes up over the walls. And he's out in the deep, dark forest, a babe in the woods, absolutely.

And then I think to myself-- I'm writing the story. And I'm thinking to myself, 'How can I make this worse for Gabe?' Because that's what you do as the writer. We are so awful to these people. So, I've got this boy. And I think to myself, 'How do make this worse?' And it's almost like you're not actually putting this stuff together consciously. This is your subconscious working through, 'How do I make this worse?'

And so, of course, Gabe runs into the most foreign thing out there in the woods that a boy who has grown up surrounded by men could possibly run into. And it is a group of amazing girls who are living in a tree, kind of Robin Hood-y, living in a tree out in the woods.

And one of those characters, Gwyn-- I think, if you had to ask me who was my favourite character that I have ever, ever met or created, it would be her. Oh, I loved her so much. She is a girl who goes where she wants, when she wants. And she has this take no prisoners-- 'I'm going to do what's right for us. I'm going to do what needs to be done as it needs to be done. And I'm just going to find a way to do it.'

And again, it's a little bit like Willow. I love capable people. People who know how to do things are my favourite kind of people. And so, there's Gwyn, going about her business. So, I'm writing this story. And I'm absolutely loving it. I've got this brilliant question at the heart of it. And as the story is unfolding, it suddenly dawns on me that at some point, I am going to have to answer that question.

So, we have 'The Book of Secrets', which sets it all up. And then we have 'The Book of Answers', which resolves everything. And 'The Book of Answers' was one of the most difficult books I have ever, ever written, because there was such a lot to do. And I had to figure out how it was going to happen. So, I'm just going to say this. If you are someone who writes like I do, [laughs] just be aware that you are setting yourself up for a lot of walking, because that's what I do.

When I'm trying to work through a plot, I don't sit at my desk and smash my head against the keyboard, even though I feel like doing that. I get up, and I walk. And there is something about the act of meditation, of tucking that problem into the back of your mind and just moving forward, moving forward, moving forward, that I find, when I come back, unlocks whatever it was that I was struggling with enough to allow me to move the story forward as well.

And so, I did an awful lot of walking with that particular book. I will say this. I always do have an idea of how it's going to finish. I know where it's going. I know how it's going to end. I did have an idea of what the solution to reading that book was going to be. But it's not always easy to get where you want to go. You kind of find yourself rappelling down cliffs and up cliffs to try to get to the point where you need to be.

So, yeah. Have a plan, people. It's much better, particularly if you're a young writer, because it just has that capacity to go horribly, horribly wrong. And you find yourself sitting there, thinking, 'I'm never, ever going to be able to complete this.' And sometimes a little bit of experience is the only way that you actually get through that particular problem.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, of course. And the next book of yours that I want to talk about is the 'Maven & Reeve Mysteries'. These are also found on the 5 to 6 book list. And they are these witty medieval mysteries with a clever servant girl and a young squire with some unusual skills and a secret to keep at the centre. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this duo?

ALLISON TAIT: The 'Maven & Reeve Mysteries' are detective stories set in a world of knights and castles, lords and ladies. The first book is 'The Fire Star', where we meet 16-year-old Reeve, who is desperate to be a knight and at last has been made squire to Sir Garrick of Rennart Castle, and 15-year-old Maven, a maid who arrives at the castle with Sir Garrick's betrothed, Lady Cassandra.

But Maven has a plan of her own and a secret society to help her. When the Fire Star, a dazzling jewel of incalculable value, goes missing, Maven and Reeve must band together to solve the mystery or lose everything dear to them. And then, in the second book, 'The Wolf's Howl', Maven and Reeve find themselves in a bleak castle in the fief of Glawn, where a woman has gone missing, and insurrection is afoot.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh. Very intriguing mysteries. And very well worth picking up and diving into those. But what I loved about these books is that there's this lovely balance of humour and sleuthing and historical intrigue and a lot of those rules and regulations, when you look back at medieval times, that kind of structure this novel. What was it that inspired this dynamic between Maven and Reeve, and did you always know that they would be solving medieval crimes together?

ALLISON TAIT: This is one of those ones where I say, 'Planning is always a great idea, people.' So, I really wanted to write a straight detective story. So, I had mysteries in 'The Ateban Cipher' and mysteries in 'The Mapmaker Chronicles'. But this was my third series that I'd written. And I love mystery stories. I've read them my whole entire life. And I have always been one of those people.

As a young reader, as an older reader, I have always been one of those people who's constantly trying to outsmart the author. I'm trying to figure out the solution to the problem before the end of the book. And so, I thought to myself, 'You know what? I'm going to see if I can write one.' And I love that almost-history world. So, I ground them in medieval history. But then, of course, again, it's about, take what you know and make it new. And so, I create my own entire worlds for my own characters.

Now, when I got to this series, I knew I wanted to write a detective novel. But I also wanted to write a hero that was not reluctant. So, I had written Quinn. And I had written Gabe. And I wanted a confident guy. I wanted to see what life was like, because I think I would always be a reluctant hero. I feel like, if somebody came and said, 'I'm going to pop you on a ship and send you out into uncharted waters,' I'd be like, 'Yeah, no, that's fine. I'm over here with my book.' I feel like I'd be that, much the same as Quinn is.

But I wanted to write a different sort of a character. And I was partly inspired by my son, Lucas, my younger son, who is one of those kids where he's a charismatic, confident sort of a guy. He's got a great smile. He's the sort of person that it didn't matter where we took him as a young child or older teen. He would have a friend and be playing soccer within about 2.5 seconds. He was just that guy.

He was just like, 'Hi, how are you going? You like soccer. I like soccer. Let's play soccer.' He was that kid. And I wanted to write a character that was a little bit like him, who would go to the party and be at the centre of the room the minute he got there, that sort of character.

So, I came up with Reeve. And Reeve was my detective. He was my guy. I was going to write a similar sort of third-person, young male hero story about Reeve, who solved mysteries. And he's a confident guy. He wants to be a knight. He's got it all going on. He's ready to go. And he arrived at the castle. And he sort of swaggered in a bit. And I thought, 'Yeah, this is really good.' And I've even named him Reeve, which is a very oldy-worldy-fashionedy word for 'sheriff'. So, he's the sheriff. The new sheriff's in town. Here we go.

And so he turns up at the castle. And he knocks on the door. And he swaggers on in. And he does all this stuff. And he's grown up in castles his whole life. He's been a page. He's been on his own in a castle since he was 7. He knows how things work. He's very political, very observant. And this is the kind of world that some of these young men found themselves in. They were shipped off to someone else's castle to learn how to go about in the world. But they were sent off at the age of 7.

And when we talk about castles, some of these places-- this is not 24 people and a Disney princess. This is like 1,000 people of all different kinds of things. And you very quickly have to figure out how things go. So, this is Reeve. And he gets into the castle. And he wanders downstairs to the kitchen to swipe a cake, because that's the kind of guy he is. And then he met Maven.

And as soon as he met Maven, I thought, 'Oh, I am in trouble here with my storyline,' because it very quickly became apparent to me that she was the brains of this operation. She's much more reserved. Her world is a lot smaller because of the way this particular society operates. She's a girl. She's not supposed to be educated. She's got a very defined role. And she's really not very happy with that. But she sees everything because everyone overlooks her.

And so he met her. And I thought, 'Oh, maybe these are the Maven mysteries.' So, I had, at this point, about 15,000 to 20,000 words of this book written. And I thought to myself, 'What I'll do is I'll try it from Maven's perspective.' So, I thought, with Maven, it needed to be a first-person story, because it's quite an intimate way to tell a story, in first person.

So, I switched it all around to Maven, first person, and quickly realised that that wasn't going to work for me because she didn't have enough agency. She couldn't go to all the places I needed her to go. She couldn't do the things I needed her to do. And so, at this stage, I've now written the first 15,000 to 20,000 words twice. And so, at this point, I come to the conclusion that what I need to do is rewrite the whole thing again. But now we're going to have it from 2 points of view.

So, we get Maven's perspective, which is all in first person, present tense, very immediate, very intimate, very close. And then we also have Reeve's perspective, which is all in third person, past tense, because he has a bigger perspective on the world. And that allowed me to give the reader a bigger perspective on the world. So, once I got to that point, I was absolutely, totally and utterly away. And so were they, as far as figuring out who stole the Fire Star, although this is one of those books where I didn't actually know who it was until I started writing the second-last chapter.

I was as surprised by who it was as I think Maven and Reeve were. And I thought to myself, 'Well, if I'm this surprised by it, then surely my readers will be as well.' So, you know what? I think everyone should have a read of it and then let me know if you were as surprised by the ending as I was.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Look, I didn't see it coming. So, I think you've done a great job with that. Now, for the readers who've finished one or all of these series and are desperate for something similar, whether it's the next mystery or action or the character dynamics, what books would you recommend they pick up next?

ALLISON TAIT: When I think about these books, the mystery is at the heart of them. And then there's that almost-history feel to them. And what I think really probably ties my 3 series together as much as anything is the voice of those series. So, it's the writing voice. My characters-- I try to make them as smart and as funny and as witty as I can. I'm always looking for humour in situations, even when things may not necessarily be humorous at the time.

And I think a series that does that beautifully as far as the voice goes, and also with that almost-history feel to them, is the 'Ranger's Apprentice' series by John Flanagan, which is one of my favourite series ever. My boys both loved it as well. It's got the pace. It's got the adventure. It's got that not-quite-history feel to it. But for me, it's the inside jokes and the voice that really bring that series to life. And I think it's one of the things that my boys in particular probably found most engaging about the 'Ranger's Apprentice'.

So, when I set out to write 'The Mapmaker Chronicles' as my first novel, you're always writing-- for me, I was trying to write the kind of book that my boys were loving reading. And so, there's always going to be that sense of, 'How can I bring my voice into this,' and 'How can I make it funny?'

And Joe-- I remember, I read the first draft of that first book out loud to him. And he goes, .My role here, Mum, is to tell you where the boring bits are so that you can take them out.' And so, that was the job. And he turned to me in all seriousness-- he's like 9 years old-- and just said, 'Look, Mum, when it gets a bit boring, what you need to do is just chuck in a battle. You just need a battle of some kind.'

And it's actually excellent advice, because it's exactly what you do need. It doesn't have to be an all-pitched, bows and arrows battle. But you need some conflict. If things are getting dull, then it means your characters-- there's no conflict in their life. They're not uncomfortable enough. So, let's make them uncomfortable.

JADE ARNOLD: Maybe you need to throw in, I don't know, a flock of geese.

ALLISON TAIT: [laughs] Maybe.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Now you're also one of the voices behind the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast and the Facebook community, both of which are fantastic resources for parents, for educators and for young readers. Can you tell us a bit about 'Your Kid's Next Read' and how it came to be and what makes it so special?

ALLISON TAIT: OK. So, Your Kid's Next Read is a community. It is a podcast. It is a newsletter. It is a phenomenon, I think. It is a lot bigger than I ever expected it was going to be. We set out to create a village to grow readers and writers. And it has absolutely expanded our expectations beyond belief.

But at the very heart of it, it is actually a friendship. So, Megan Daley, Allison Rushby and myself are team Your Kid's Next Read. Allison Rushby and I have known each other for a very long time as writers. We were both writing different things before we started writing for children, even. We've been friends a long time. And Megan Daley and I met through blogging. I started a blog about 15 years ago called 'Life in a Pink Fibro'. And we actually connected through that. And over the years, we became friends.

And when Joe-- at that stage, he was known as Book Boy to the wider world. When he was sort of getting into his teen years, I think-- we're talking about 8 years ago, probably. So, he was maybe 12 or 13. And I was getting asked all the time, because I'd started writing for children, and I had all of these parents saying to me, 'What can I give my child to read next? They like this. They like that. I don't know how to get them started in reading. They don't really love it. What can we do?'

And enough people asked me this question. And I had found myself asking Megan the same question a lot of times for Joe and also for Lucas, but mostly for Joe, because he was a very, very advanced reader. So, at the age of 7, he had an adult reading level. So, I was struggling finding things that were interesting enough for him, but also at a good level.

So, I was asking Megan a lot. And then we started getting into 12 and 13. And we're into teen years. And so, I was talking to Trish Buckley, who was a friend of Megan's. And I just said to Megan one day, 'I think we need a group. I think, if I'm asking you these questions, people are asking me these questions, people are always asking you these questions, let's just start a Facebook group.'

So, we started Your Kid's Next Read as a little Facebook group for parents, educators, carers, all manner of other interested adults who were looking for the next read for their particular young reader. Whatever that young reader may bring to the table, whatever their interests may be, whatever their reading level may be, just, let's get them going.

And we now have about 38,000 members in that group. We have this podcast, which is about to celebrate its 200th episode. We have a newsletter. We have all of these different things that are going on. And as I said, we've created a village to create young readers or to help create young readers. And I think that it's one of those things that is necessary more than ever now, with school libraries either closing or not having a qualified teacher librarian, with books being harder to find.

I mean, a lot of regional areas-- I live in a regional area. And we're lucky that we have a couple of different bookshops still in our area. But there's a lot of places out there that don't. They have the big stores, like Kmart and Big W, et cetera. But they don't have an independent bookseller. And they don't have someone that they can say--

JADE ARNOLD: 'I'd like this title. Can you order it in for me?'

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah, or, 'My kid likes this. What should they read next?' Or that sort of thing. So, it's filling, I think, a spot there, because it's incredibly difficult to do it by yourself. I'm a writer. And I still struggled with trying to find the right books for-- I've had this advanced reader, but then I also had a kid who preferred, and still does, prefers running to reading.

And he doesn't like it when I say this. So, we called him the family Kelpie for a really long time because he just needed a good run every day to take the edge off. And getting him to sit down with a book was incredibly difficult. So, I spent a lot of time throwing books at that child. And I never gave up. I'm still giving him books. And he does read now. He's 18 now. We're out of school, which helps.

But he's never going to be what I would call a keen reader. But the fact that he reads it all, I feel, is one of the greatest achievements of my life. And I couldn't have done it without a group and without a community around me like I have. So, what we're trying to create is a space for people who may not have that easy access to that community. Well, here it is. Your Kid's Next Read. Get involved.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And it's been, as a teacher librarian, such a fantastic resource for me. When I was in a school library, and I would come across students who would just give me the most out there, like, 'Miss, I've read x, y and z,' and all the recommendations I could give them, they'd already read, so turning to that community to be able to seek out more recommendations, but then also being able to jump on and share those recommendations back.

It's that beautiful community where there's so much shared. There's so much given back. And then, of course, the podcast, which was one of the main inspirations behind starting this podcast, has been a fantastic resource for me, trying to keep abreast of all of the titles that are released that we perhaps haven't received to review for the Premier's Reading Challenge, or just for my own personal reading. Yeah, it's a fantastic resource. And it's so lovely that it exists and definitely something that, if you haven't listened to, then you need to go and find it ASAP, after you've finished listening to this episode.

ALLISON TAIT: Absolutely. And you'll find all the details about everything, and where it came from, and everything you need to at YourKidsNextRead.com.au. So, it's a one-stop shop for all of Your Kid's Next Read requirements, really. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Definitely go check it out. We'll include a link to that website in our show notes as well. It's so clear from your work and your podcasts that you're incredibly passionate about supporting young readers. What advice would you give for teacher librarians or Premier's Reading Challenge coordinators who are trying to help students fall in love with books?

ALLISON TAIT: Yeah. This is a question, again, that we get asked a lot. And I think one of the best things that you can do for any reader, and it's something I've done with my own children, is to meet them where they are. So, it's about finding books where they are, not necessarily where anyone else in the whole universe thinks they should be, or could be, or anything like that. It's about where they are at the moment.

And it is also about-- and this is something that the community has got very, very good at in Your Kid's Next Read. We will often have people, particularly newer members, come in and say, 'I need a book for a 13-year-old boy.' And immediately, the group goes into, 'What does that 13-year-old boy like to do? What has he read before that he's enjoyed?'

So, it's not necessarily about that blanket, 'I need a book for a 10-year-old.' It's about, 'My 10-year-old likes grasshoppers and drinking straws and whatever and likes to read books about basketball.' And the thing that fascinates me about this group, the thing that just astonishes me every single day, is it actually does not matter what you come at them with. They will find you a list.

If your child is into cockroaches, there will be a list. I just saw a question in there today about, someone was looking for books about drinking straws. I don't want to ask any questions. I don't need to know any more than that. But there were 5 or 6 responses to the drinking straws response. And to me, that is the power of that group.

So, I think it is absolutely about drilling into what that child likes or what that young reader enjoys and meeting them where they are, right where they are. We get a lot of questions around graphic novels, and wanting to move kids on from graphic novels, and funny books, those highly illustrated books, wanting to move them on. And we're like, 'You know what? Go in hard with those funny books. Keep them reading. And then try to move them sideways. It's not necessarily always about going up.'

And I think, as adults, we're always thinking about going up. What's next? What's next? What's next? But in actual fact, sometimes it's about, 'OK, here you are. What else is on this plane with you? What else can we do that goes sideways and might bring you into a new sort of interest or a new genre?' I guess that's probably my main advice for that.

JADE ARNOLD: That's really important advice, too, is just absolutely meeting students where they're at and focusing on books that they enjoy. And if it means reading 50, 60 books that are very similar in their structure, they're still getting a lot out of those books, because we might look at them and see, as adults, those are quite short, simplistic books, because they're short and simplistic for us. But for readers developing their reading journey, they may not be. But even if they're not, if they're enjoying that, then that's going to build that long-lasting enjoyment in what they're reading.

ALLISON TAIT: It builds confidence. And we take a great deal of comfort out of being confident with reading things. And that's-- we did a whole podcast episode on rereading because we had-- at that particular point, we had a whole bunch of parents who were concerned about the fact that their young readers were just rereading the same things over again.

And again, it comes down to that-- it's a comfort thing. And I think people get-- the uncertainty in the world in the last few years permeates its way down to kids in all sorts of different ways. And if you get comfort or take comfort out of knowing how a book's going to end, then let's go with that. Why not?

JADE ARNOLD: And I think that's probably why series books are so popular with younger readers as well, because it gives them the same characters to come back to. And it's just, what problems are they trying to solve? Or what chaos is happening? That's the uncertainty. But we know who they are. We know how they act. And that gives them that comfort.

ALLISON TAIT: It does. It's important, if you are trying to move a child sideways, to find out what it is they like about what they're reading at the moment, because we make the assumption that they like that book because it's simplistic, highly illustrated. But it may just be that there's something about that particular character that speaks to them or there's something about the friendship dynamic in that group that's really working for them.

So, if you can drill a little bit into a particular type of humour, because as much as they tend to be all put under the same banner, fart books or whatever, they're not all the same. And we have some incredibly skilled writers creating those junior fiction-- I'm particularly looking at those junior fiction series in this comment.

We have some incredibly skilled writers writing those. So, it's about finding out-- it could well be that it's that rolling action, the pace of them, that is actually working for your young reader. So, if you can find out what that is, you can find more books about friends, or more fast-paced books, or more whatever. And that's a way to ripple them out into something slightly different.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And I think that's always a good strategy, whether you're dealing with young readers, whether you're dealing with teenagers, asking them what it is that they liked about that book before you go in to recommend their next book, because that actually is going to be the more powerful indicator. They don't necessarily want a carbon copy of, 'OK, you liked this murder mystery, where it was 2 people trying to solve the crime. Let's give you another murder mystery with 2 people trying to solve the crime.'

That's not necessarily the answer. The answer might be, 'Oh, I liked that it was set in a boarding school,' or 'I liked the dynamics between the characters. I liked x, y, z.' Whatever it is, that's where you want to pull the recommendation. And maybe it will end up being another murder mystery or something similar. But being able to identify those key points there is really, really key.

ALLISON TAIT: Sometimes it comes down to something indefinable. And they'll just say, 'I like the way it's written,' or they'll say, 'I just like the story,' or whatever. And if they say that to you, they are responding to the voice of that book. So, it is about you having a look at what is-- 'Is it sassy? What is it about that voice?' Because that sassy voice, particularly in that teen space, you will find that in all kinds of different genres, just dealt with in a different way.

So, voice is one of those things. It's really hard to define. But it's so incredibly important. And once you get the hang of what it is that they're feeling about it-- it's like a rhythm or a sassiness to the voice-- it does become easier to find that feel elsewhere.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. That's such great advice. In addition to your novels and the Your Kid's Next Read community, you also commit a lot of your time and energy to supporting emerging writers. You've previously cohosted the 'So You Want to Be a Writer' podcast and coauthored the book of the same name with Valerie Khoo. And you run creative writing courses for children. Can you tell us a little about these initiatives, as well as some of the most common questions or challenges that come up from young writers?

ALLISON TAIT: OK. So, 'So You Want to Be a Writer', the podcast, was something that Valerie and I started a long time ago. Again, came from a friendship. I think the very best of these sorts of things come from a friendship, because you have to want to spend a lot of time with this person. And you have to enjoy chatting with them, particularly if it's a podcast. Consistency is the key with a podcast. And so, if you're going to turn up week in, week out, to talk about something, you want to be, A, passionate about the subject, and B, extremely happy to talk to that person about that subject for a long time.

And so, obviously, Valerie runs the Australian Writers' Centre. And she was looking for a way to share some of the stuff that the Writers' Centre was doing, but also to be able to interview other authors and to be able to share that love of writing with an entire community.

And we just get on really well. And we have similar, but different backgrounds in writing. And so, that was a lot of fun. I interviewed an enormous number of authors through that podcast. And it was a great joy for me to do that, because I learned something from every single author I spoke to. And I think, if you tune in and listen when people are talking, particularly about something that you love, it doesn't matter how much you know about something. There is always going to be something new to learn. And so, for me, that was just a great joy.

And we wrote the book because we wanted to distill all of the things that we talked about regularly. I think I did 486 episodes of that podcast with Valerie. And if you are talking about anything for 486 podcasts, you are going to start repeating yourself in certain ways. Similar questions come in.

So, we decided that we would create a book that distilled all the things that we had talked about a lot over all those years. And so, 'So You Want to Be a Writer,' the book, was the result of that. And that was a great exercise for us to do as well because it made us articulate, in absolutely written, accessible, engaging terms, all of the things that we chatted about regularly. And I very much enjoyed the experience of writing that book as well.

And then the courses-- I had taught various courses with the Australian Writers' Centre over the years, because I was a freelance journalist when I first started my blog and first started even 'So You Want to Be a Writer', the podcast. I think the first episode of that came out even before 'The Mapmaker Chronicles'.

And so, at the time, I was doing a lot of freelance journalism. I had written 3 nonfiction books. I was writing fiction in my spare time in the middle of the night. So, I brought a different skill set to that. And I have tutored in journalism, writing features, et cetera. I've done creative writing courses for adults. And then I created my own course-- actually got a couple of different ones-- but one of them specifically was creative writing for kids, 9 to 14.

And it covers off all the foundations of the things I know about writing, which I am still using to this very day, but in kid-friendly language and exercises, et cetera. So, it's really enjoyable. And you asked what was the tips or advice that I see. The number-one piece of advice I find myself giving young writers in that course-- so they upload an 800-word story for me to read. And the number-one piece of advice that I find myself giving them is to put it on the page, because it's only 800 words. It's a very short story. And things happen in that story that don't necessarily make sense to me as a reader.

And as I explain to them, I'm coming to your story cold. I have no doubt that you know exactly what is happening in this story. I think you can see the full movie running in your head. You have it all up here. But it's not on the page for me. So, you need to make sure, when you do your edit-- editing is important-- you need to make sure that every single thing that a reader needs to make sense of why a character is doing things is actually on that page.

And I suggest to them that one of the best things they can do is to give it to a trusted adult. And if that person asks questions-- and we have to look at this as feedback, not criticism-- always feedback, not criticism-- if that person asks questions or says, 'Why did this character do that?' 'I don't really understand what's happening here.' Then that's your cue to have another look at it and just make it clearer. Make sure that whatever is in your head is on that page so that your reader is getting the story exactly as you intend from what's happening in your brain.

JADE ARNOLD: That's a wonderful advice. And I think, having taught in a high school for my entire teaching career, very, very timely advice as well. The amount of times I've had students give me their draughts of creative writing stories, and I've given them feedback, and they're like, 'Oh, but I thought I was done.' And you're like, 'I mean, it's a good start. But no author finishes in their first run. You need to edit.' They're like, 'Oh, but I thought I could just be finished now.'

ALLISON TAIT: No, editing-- unfortunately, it's something that we all discover as writers the hard way. And that is that editing is actually writing. It's part of the process. It's not like some add-on thing that you can leave off if you want to. It's all part of the integral process.

JADE ARNOLD: Even the best writers in the world have to go back and edit. No one has the perfect story in the first draft.

ALLISON TAIT: No, they do not.

[laughter]

Take it from me, people. They do not, especially if they're writing 60,000 words, and they have no idea what they're doing. Yes, that's exactly right.

JADE ARNOLD: I wanted to ask, Allison, is there anything that you are currently working on? And if you are, are you allowed to give us a little sneak peek?

ALLISON TAIT: Well, I am currently working on something entirely new. But I can't talk to you about that yet. But I can tell you that I do have a second new novel this year. It's very exciting, 2 in one year for me. It's called 'Danger Road'. And it's a fast-paced mystery thriller for readers aged 10 to 14. And it is, I think, for me, the culmination of a lifetime of reading crime novels. I think it is, absolutely.

It was such a joy to write this book. It was not always easy. But it was an absolute joy to write it because I was right in my sweet spot of exactly what I love to read, even though I had to write it for middle grade readers. So, I'm ageing it down. But it has all the hallmarks of what I love reading in crime novels as an adult. And I don't think I could have written this book 10 years ago. I don't think I could have written it when I wrote 'The Mapmaker Chronicles'. So, the fact that I have been able to write it now is just an absolute joy for me to do. So, shall I tell you a little bit about it? Do you want me to give you the blurb?

JADE ARNOLD: I would love for you to tell us a bit about it.

ALLISON TAIT: OK. One podcast, 2 brothers, a hit-and-run cold case. Who killed Corey Armstrong? 25 years ago, on a dark winter's night, teenager Corey Armstrong was left to die by a hit-and-run driver on Danger Road. Now Corey is the subject of a podcast that's putting his hometown on the map. But with the series almost over, the case remains unsolved.

When brothers Alex and Leo decide to try to find out what happened to Corey, they uncover old secrets, learning more about Corey and people close to home than they could ever have imagined. But could bringing a cold case back to life prove fatal? Find out in 'Danger Road', a full-throttle mystery that will grip you till the very end.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, I can't wait to get my hands on that. That sounds wonderful.

ALLISON TAIT: It's very, very fun. The 2 brothers are 13 and 14. They're very close together in age. And it is 2 first-person point of view. So, you get Alex's perspective, and you get Leo's perspective. And it was challenging, but it was a huge amount of fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. And that's coming out later this year. Do you know the exact date?

ALLISON TAIT: First of July, that one will be available.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, that will have to go into our calendars. And I can't wait. Are there any middle grade or junior fiction titles you think our listeners need to know about right now?

ALLISON TAIT: There's a couple. So, what I'm reading right now is 'The Girl and the Ghost', which is the first book in a new series from Jacqueline Harvey. And I'm actually preparing for an interview with Jacqueline. So, this is the great joy of the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast. So, not only do I get all these great books to read-- I mean, it's supposed to be a 10-minute interview. But I don't think I've ever managed to do a 10-minute interview yet. So, I'm going to be able to dive into that with Jacqueline. And I'm very much looking forward to that. We are great friends. And I very much enjoy chatting to her about writing. She's an absolute superstar.

And then I also very much want to recommend a book I read recently and did chat about on the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast. It's called 'Spirit of the Crocodile'. It's by Aaron Fa'aoso and Michelle Scott Tucker with Lyn White. And it is a middle grade novel about Ezra, who is an ordinary boy who lives on-- I'm not sure how to pronounce this, but I think it's Saibai, an extraordinary Australian island. It's up in the Torres Strait Islands.

And he is this great, cheeky character. And he loves a dare. But when one of his dares goes wrong, he realises he needs to make a few decisions about helping out and measuring up. It's this great growing up, coming-of-age sort of story, which obviously is in the feel for me of my Willow Bright area. But it's got this great adventure aspect to it as well, because the island is being threatened by climate disasters. And there is a huge out-of-season storm at the heart of this book.

And it puts you right into the middle of the challenge that is being faced by some of these islanders. And it really gives you an insight into life in these islands. But it's also just a fantastic story. And it's got this great adventure in the middle of it. And I just really think it's a great story.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds wonderful. And we'll include those in our show notes as well. Last question I have for you, Allison. What are you reading currently, or what are you excited to dive into next?

ALLISON TAIT: Oh, gosh. Well, as I said, I'm reading 'The Girl and the Ghost' because I need to get that done for a podcast interview. And then I think next on my to-be-read pile-- this is the difficulty with 'Your Kid's Next Read'. If I could show you my to-be-read pile, it is absolutely huge. So, to be honest with you, I can't answer what my next read is going to be. I can only give you my current and a recommended.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: That is totally fine. Allison, thank you so much for chatting with me today. I have absolutely no doubt that our listeners will be inspired to revisit some of your classics, pick up some of your latest titles for their young readers, and help them complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge and possibly embark on their own writing journeys, as well as check out Your Kid's Next Read community if they haven't done so already.

ALLISON TAIT: Well, thank you very much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to chat about all of the various things with you. There's not too many places where I get to talk about every aspect of my daily life. So, thanks for that.

JADE ARNOLD: You are so welcome. And thank you again for joining. For everyone tuning in, we've included a list of all of Allison's featured books, as well as the titles we mentioned in today's episode, in the show notes on the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' page. Be sure to check it out and share it with the young readers in your life. And most importantly, happy reading.

ALLISON TAIT: Happy reading!

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit Premier'sReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 11 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by Lili Wilkinson, a prolific voice in Australian young adult and junior fiction, with over 20 titles to her name.

Lili has captured the imaginations of teens and younger readers alike with stories that range from high-stakes thrillers, to spellbinding fantasies, to hilarious monster mayhem and picture books for little ones. Lili's most recent releases include her dark academia fantasy 'Unhallowed Halls' for young adult readers, and 'Bravepaw', a fantasy adventure for younger readers. Lili, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

LILI WILKINSON: I'm good. Thank you, Jade. How are you?

JADE ARNOLD: Very good. Super excited to be here talking to you about your books. Before we get started with the questions, though, I thought it would be nice to play a little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can either defend your choices if you like, or you can just stand by them, totally up to you. Are you ready?

LILI WILKINSON: Yep.

JADE ARNOLD: Series or standalones?

LILI WILKINSON: Standalones. I don't always have the stamina for a series these days because I'm an old lady now.

JADE ARNOLD: Ebooks or audiobooks?

LILI WILKINSON: Oh, I'm going to say ebooks because I feel very guilty about saying this. I read almost exclusively on my phone, but I still want to have the physical book, so I buy a physical book.

JADE ARNOLD: Magic gone wrong or science gone rogue?

LILI WILKINSON: Magic gone wrong. I feel a little conflicted about science gone rogue. There's like a-- I just don't feel like this is the right time for anti-science sentiment. But also, I feel like there's a lot of science that is going wrong. And so, it feels a little bit too close to home.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. Witches in the wild or monsters in the basement?

LILI WILKINSON: Oh, witches is in the wild, every day.

JADE ARNOLD: Daydreaming or planning your next book?

LILI WILKINSON: Planning. I love to plan. Plan books, plan holidays, plan everything.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, a planner, I love that. So, let's get on to the real questions now. Thank you for that. That was a little bit of fun. So, Lili, one of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. And then, with that in mind, we like to do a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch to help teach librarians or parents make recommendations for their students or children.

I want you to imagine that a student is standing between the bookshelves in their school library, or their local library, or maybe their local bookshop, and you've got to help them make the decision to take your book home. So, with that in mind, can you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest YA title, 'Unhallowed Halls'?

LILI WILKINSON: Sure. So, it is a YA dark academia fantasy. It is for readers who love their books full of magic and gloomy, romantic, blasted Scottish landscapes.

It is also for readers who love a squad of adorable queer weirdos. It has a lot of ancient Celtic magic and a little bit of cosmic horror, but I think, fundamentally, it is a book about that kind of really deep need to be seen, and to be understood and to find your people.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I love that so much. For our listeners, 'Unhallowed Halls' is currently being reviewed. It may be on the PRC book list by the time that this episode goes to air, so we'll pop that in the show notes at the end so that you can check.

So, 'Unhallowed Halls' is awash with Greek and Roman philosophy and takes place in this mysterious, isolated school where technology is prohibited. What drew you to this dangerous world of dark academia, and how did you go about weaving in that magical, dangerous atmosphere?

LILI WILKINSON: The very first spark for the book came, actually, from another author, Ellie Marney, who we often send each other interviews and articles that we feel like the other one would be interested in. And she sent me this article about a boarding school in the US that was a boarding school that looked like a castle, had a literal moat, and it was specifically a school for rich, intelligent, but damaged kids.

So, it was super, super smart nepo babies who have gotten kicked out of other boarding schools. And I'm like, well, there is some great stories in that. There's got to be some great stories, but what if also they were demons, because you have to make it more interesting.

And so, I moved the school to Scotland because I did a hike once across Rannoch Moor in Scotland in the Scottish Highlands, and it was just so beautiful, and atmospheric and gloomy, but in such a beautiful, magical way that I knew that I wanted to write a story set there. And so, this felt like the perfect place to write this kind of gloomy boarding school narrative. And I think that there's something about dark academia that's really connecting with young readers at the moment.

And I do wonder if it is, as you say, that kind of lack of technology, that there is no space for social media in these crumbling, ancient buildings and dusty libraries. And it's more about playing chess with your friends over cups of black coffee.

And it's romantic but in a very organic, real-world way. And I think that there's so much pressure on young people at the moment to always be on a screen, to always be being perceived to always be creating content that I think that that offline world is very appealing.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm picking up a lot of threads, obviously. I'm halfway through the book. I haven't finished it yet, but I can see a lot of those threads there, where the main character in this book, she's not one of those nepo babies, but she's surrounded by all the other students are from these insanely rich, or wealthy or well-known families, and that kind of makes her feel like this real outsider.

But the thing that creates a lot of the tension between them is their actual face-to-face interactions, as opposed to gossip that spreads online or being excluded online. And it's really nice to see that dynamic play out in a really different way. And it kind of hearkens back to, heh, oh, no, my childhood, where a lot of the tension comes from those face-to-face interactions or just in the classroom, but it's also set amongst this dark, moody, Scottish, cold landscape.

Yeah, I love that so much. It's a really different setting to place it in and is really on the money there with why dark academia is potentially so appealing to students at the moment. For readers who loved 'Unhallowed Halls' and want more stories with similar vibes, what would you recommend they read next?

LILI WILKINSON: I think that if you want those interactions, that kind of snappy banter, you can't go past either Emma Clancey's 'This Dream Will Devour Us', which has either just come out or is just about to, which I really enjoyed, which is this world where there's magical drugs. And you can have all of these powers, but they're only for rich people. But if rich people weren't partying on them, we could use them as medicine to help regular people.

Anyway, really kind of great, political intrigue kind of story. You also can't go past 'Lady's Knight' by Amy Kaufman and Meagan Spooner, which is coming out later this year. It's just so good, so good, such great banter. And that is also some really great queer rep. Other really great queer YA is Lisa Tirreno's 'Prince of Fortune', which came out in January, which is really great.

And then, one from last year and the year before, the 'Nightbirds' duology by Kate J. Armstrong is all about magic and beautiful, angsty relationships between people and smashing the patriarchy, which obviously is one of my favourite things to read about.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I love that so much. And there's so many fantastic new releases there that I haven't heard of yet, so I'm excited to get my hands on, but we'll include all of those in our show notes for our listeners.

The next books I'd like to talk about are your fantasy titles that are, I guess, spiritual sequels: 'A Hunger of Thorns', which won the Victorian Premier's Literary Award, and 'Deep Is the Fen', which is set in the same world as 'A Hunger of Thorns', but it follows different characters and can be read as a standalone. Both of these books are on the 9Plus book list. Can you give us your pitch for these stories?

LILI WILKINSON: Sure, so 'A Hunger of Thorns' is-- so, both of the books, first of all, are set in this world that is like a contemporary, modern-ish world but where magic exists. But magic has been absorbed into the fabric of capitalism, and so you can't really do magic. It's forbidden, sort of all wrapped up in laws, and restrictions and patents. But you can buy a magical tea bag, where the little paper tab never falls into the cup when you're pouring the hot water in.

And you can buy magical glamour patches, which look like a nicotine patch but act more like a TikTok filter, where you can look however you want. And so, magic is a little mundane, really, in this world, because it has been absorbed by capitalism in this way.

So, in 'A Hunger of Thorns', our protagonist is Maude, who is the daughter and the granddaughter of witches. And so, she has this great, magical legacy. And when she's a child, she can do magic. She has magical ability. And she has this best friend, Odette, who can't do magic and who comes from this incredibly rich, cold, unloving home. And she's really drawn to darkness, and she's drawn to Maude because of Maude's magic.

And so, they are childhood best friends, and they play together, and they have this beautiful, imaginative childhood relationship, but Odette is always pushing Maude to do more magic. And when Maude's magic dries up when she gets her period, Odette dumps her. And so, when the book begins, it's years later, and they haven't seen each other for a long time, but Odette has gone missing, and Maude decides that she's going to venture into this very dangerous, magic-soaked landscape to try and find her.

JADE ARNOLD: Such a dark and enchanting story, with lots of twists and turns. In 'A Hunger of Thorns', you draw on the histories of persecution and celebrate the power of women, subverting familiar fantasy tropes in these really interesting ways. And then layered into this world, as you hinted at there, is this really powerful critique of consumerism and industrialisation and environmental destruction. What inspired this world, and what conversations were you hoping to spark with Maude's journey?

LILI WILKINSON: I think it was really a culmination of all of the fantasy that I have read and loved. And the fantasy that I love the most has these really classic fantasy tropes in it, but then also responds to things that are happening in our world as well. And that's why fantasy is so great because we can really dig into some of those issues apart from the very complexities and contradictions that exist in the real world.

And so, it's a book that evolved over time. I have never written a book like that before, and it went through so many different draughts, and it ended up being about quite different things to what I initially intended it to be about. It was like getting lost in a forest, really. And so, I very much wanted to look at magic as part of capitalism and go through that thought experiment of what that would be like.

And I wanted to, as you say, draw on that history of persecution of witches and of women in general and that fear of female power. I also wanted to bring that a little bit more into modern day and remove that a little bit from gender binaries, which I continued a little bit more in 'Deep Is the Fen' and then more still, I guess, in 'Unhallowed Halls'. And so, I guess all of those things combined together into this kind of strange narrative about witches and freedom, I suppose.

JADE ARNOLD: It's very strange, but very dark and enthralling, and it's a very unique book. And I'm going to ask you later for recommendations for what to read next, and it's going to be an interesting one for you to answer. [laughs] I'm sure you've got something amazing up your sleeve, though.

As I mentioned before, the spiritual sequel to this book is 'Deep Is the Fen'. You don't need to have read 'A Hunger of Thorns' to understand 'Deep Is the Fen', but there is one side character that pops up that readers of the first one will recognise. Would you be able to give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title?

LILI WILKINSON: Sure. So, if 'Hunger of Thorns' is my angsty friendship book, then 'Deep Is the Fen' is more of my enemies-to-lovers romance book, or at least rivals to lovers. So, this tells the story of Merry, who is very different to Maude. She is confident. She is like a country girl who knows exactly what she wants, and what she wants is her best friend Teddy, who is a hot blacksmith. And who among us has not occasionally wanted a hot blacksmith?

The problem is that she has made her best friends, Teddy and Sol, promise not to fall in love with her. And then, she has accidentally fallen in love with Teddy. And Teddy has joined the Toadmen, which is this organisation, sort of gentleman's club, that is a little bit like Freemasons or a little bit like Morris dancers and sort of seems a bit sort of quirky and weird and fusty. They wear funny outfits, and they do funny little rituals, but it seems quite harmless.

But Maude has this ability to sense magic, and she suspects that something very dark is going on with the Toadmen. And so, when Teddy joins, she has to infiltrate the Toadmen in order to extract him. And in order to do that, she has to team up with her arch rival, Caraway.

And Caraway is a boarder at the school she goes to, so, he comes from a very wealthy, privileged family. And he looks and acts like an Ice Prince. He has no friends. He is very aloof. He wears a glamour patch all the time. So, nobody knows, really, what he really looks like.

And Merry just hates him. They are academic rivals, but he has an in with the Toadmen, so she is going to have to team up with him. And ultimately, it's a book about resistance, witches and evil Toadmen, and again, smashing the patriarchy.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, amazing. I love it so much. As you mentioned, you've got the Toadmen, which are this mysterious, all-male secret society, which, as you said, are loosely based around, say, Morris dancers and Freemason society. Was this a way of helping you explore or challenge existing power structures that you see in the world around you?

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, absolutely. The Toadmen, actually, was based on a-- there was a real secret society called the Toadmen in Scotland in the 18th century, and they were a horseman's fraternity. And there's a ritual at the beginning of the book that Teddy does with a toad, where you bury a toad and extract its skeleton from an ant hill, and then put it in a stream, and that one of its bones will float upstream and that that bone will give you powers. And that's a real ritual that the Toadmen used to do. And they believe that that toad bone would give them power to control both horses and women.

But you know when I read that kind of thing, I'm like, 'Well, obviously, I have to write a book about that and then make it worse.' So, that was a really big part of it. And then, the resistance witches that we encounter in the book, the term 'resistance witch' was actually something that I read around the time of Donald Trump's first inauguration in 20-- whenever that was, 2017?

And there were these American witches who were doing rituals and putting hexes on Donald Trump, and they were using the term 'resistance witch'. And I was like, 'That is a great term'. Also, 'I would like to put that in a book.' So, yeah, very much responding to things that were happening in the real world.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, amazing. I love how you've pulled that real, historical, grounded in our history and intertwined that into your narrative in a way that reflects and criticises what's happening in the world around us.

LILI WILKINSON: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: What would you recommend for readers who are craving more rich feminist fantasy after devouring 'Deep Is the Fen' and 'A Hunger of Thorns'?

LILI WILKINSON: So, I will go back to one of my previous recommendations, 'Nightbirds', which is one of the best feminist fantasies I've read in a long time by Kate Armstrong. I would also recommend literally anything by Margo Lanagan, who writes the most beautifully complex and fascinating fantasy. When I grow up, I want to be Margo Lanagan. Holly Black's 'Cruel Prince' series has a lot of that same kind of Celtic magic, inspired world building.

And then, I suspect I'll get in trouble for this one because it is a grown-up fantasy book, but anything by T. Kingfisher, but particularly 'Nettle & Bone', just one of my favourite fantasy reads of recent times.

JADE ARNOLD: Look, our listeners are mostly PRC coordinators, and sometimes they need to have a recommendation for themselves. So, I think that's totally fine. The next book I'd like to talk about with you is 'The Erasure Initiative', which also features on the 9Plus book list. How would you pitch this book for a teen reader?

LILI WILKINSON: So, 'The Erasure Initiative' is about a girl called Cecily who-- but she doesn't know that at the beginning of the book-- who wakes up on a self-driving bus that is going around and around a deserted tropical island, and there are 7 people on the bus, and nobody has any memory of who they are or how they got there.

And so, the book is a thriller, and the inhabitants of the bus have to figure out who they are. They are all dressed the same. They each have a name tag on, which they assume is their name but may not be. And so, all they really have to go on is how they look.

There's no mirror on the bus, so they have to describe each other. And they have to figure out who they are, while at the same time the bus is doing psychological experiments on them. The bus is re-enacting versions of the trolley problem thought experiment.

And so, they have to make these ethical choices. And everyone on the bus makes these assumptions about themselves and about each other based on how they look, because that's all they have. And so, they make these assumptions that Cecily, who's the main character, is this pretty blonde girl who seems wealthy looking at her skin and her teeth and her fingernails and her haircut.

And so, everyone's like, 'Well, you know, she's obviously just a nice person,' and they make similar assumptions about Paxton, who's sort of like a hot jock. They assume that the small, quiet Asian boy is a nerd. They assume that the weird guy with the weathered skin and DIY tattoos and not a lot of teeth is probably a criminal and that the woman with a sensible haircut who looks like she's in her 50s is a social worker or a primary school teacher or something. So, they make all of these assumptions, and of course, everybody is wrong.

JADE ARNOLD: I love that so much. And I love how-- one of the things I remember about it is the characters in different coloured shirts and how that also that ends up being a point of division between them, where something as simple as the colour of shirt that you're put in, even though you haven't made that choice yourself, is how-- when you've got no other knowledge of who you are, that's how you start identifying and start othering other people.

In amongst this narrative, it's this really compelling and thought-provoking read that tackles questions around identity and rehabilitation and the nature of criminality. It also encourages a lot of reflection on real-world injustices like corrupt governments and unethical organisations. What was it that inspired this concept, and what did you hope that young readers take away from it?'

LILI WILKINSON: So, I desperately did not want to write this book because I really wanted to write 'A Hunger of Thorns'. I was like, 'I'm ready to make the jump to fantasy now.' And I pitched it to my amazing publisher at Allen & Unwin, Jodie Webster, and she was like, 'Yes, great, love it. But could you write one more thriller first, because your other thrillers have done really well, and we'd just like another one?'

And so, I didn't want to do it. And so, I went home and was very mean to my family for a few days. I couldn't think of the right idea. I kept thinking about all these vague thoughts, but I just couldn't quite get it.

And then, 2 things happened. One was, I read this book about a true story-- a bio-- an autobiography about a guy who came to on a train platform in India with absolutely no memory of who he was or how he got there, and he assumed that he was a drug addict, or that something terrible had happened, or that he'd had some kind of psychotic break, and that, who knows, he could been there for years. He was white. He had an American accent, but he finally got in contact with his family at home, and they were like, 'Oh, no, we talked to you like 2 days ago. You're a scholar. You're working on a book in India.'

And it turned out that actually it was to do with his malaria medication, that had caused this kind of memory gap. And he had this memory gap for several years, where he could remember all of his general knowledge, but his autobiographical memory was gone.

Apparently, that is kept in a different part of the brain, and so everything to do with himself was completely gone. And so, he went back home to the States, and he was listening to a college radio show that he had done. And so, he had hours and hours of footage of himself talking. And he was like, 'I don't like this guy. I think he's kind of awful.'

And I thought, 'What a confronting thing to have to do, to step outside of yourself and look at yourself really objectively and realise that you're not a good person.' And so, that was the first thing.

And then, I think, probably because I'd read that book, I kind of woke up in the middle of the night and had this idea about the self-driving car and the people trapped on board with no memory of who they were, or how they got there, and how they would interact with each other and what kind of choices they might make.

And then also, I was watching 'The Good Place', the TV show, which has a lot of philosophy in it and a lot of psychology as well. And they have that episode on the trolley problem. And so, that felt like something really natural to incorporate in there as well.

And so, I did a lot of reading about those classic psychological experiments, which is why they had the blue shirts and the red shirts thing instead of the blue eyes, brown eyes experiment. And so, I tried to allude to as much of that stuff as possible. Because at the end of the day, I'm just a big nerd.

JADE ARNOLD: No, I loved it. It was such an interesting take on, as you said, the trolley problem, and a really interesting way of encouraging students, I guess, to look at, you know, 'what does it mean to be a criminal?' 'what does it mean to be rehabilitated?' and the ethics around all of that kind of stuff.

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, I'd love to go into a school and ask them versions of the trolley problem. It's fascinating. And to see how many repeat and the classic trolley problem conundrum of, like, do you kill one person to save 5 people?

Usually, there's 10% to 20% of students who will choose to let the 5 people die because they don't want the personal responsibility of one person. But they are always, always boys every single time. It is just boys.

But then, I get everybody to put their hand up if they've chosen to pull the lever or press the button or whatever and kill that one person in order to save 5. And I'm like, 'Alright, that one person is your mum.' They all just erupt into chaos, and it's great. And then, we move on to some less traumatic ones. And we do like Beyoncé or Taylor Swift and cats versus dogs and--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wow. It sounds like there's a PhD experiment under the surface here.

LILI WILKINSON: There really is. And it's a really great way to talk to kids about ethics and to get kids to really understand that idea of not having a fixed ethical centre but everything being really dependent on context.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And for readers who are hooked by that suspense and the moral complexity of 'The Eurasia Initiative', what would you recommend they try next?

LILI WILKINSON: So, I would recommend Ellie Marney's 'None Shall Sleep' trilogy, which is about serial killers. And there's a lot of those similar ethical conundrums in those books about making choices of who you work with and what are you prepared to sacrifice in order to solve the mystery or in order to save a life.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely, and a fantastic read. Those ones are also on the 9Plus book list and we'll include those in our show notes. Another title of yours that features on the 9Plus PRC book list is 'After the Lights Go Out'. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title?

LILI WILKINSON: Sure, so Pru is the daughter of a doomsday prepper. She lives out in the Australian Outback with her 2 younger sisters and her dad. And he has dragged these 3 girls out into the middle of nowhere in order to prepare for an oncoming disaster. He's not quite sure what it's going to be. It could be political. It could be environmental. He's going to be ready for it, no matter what it is.

So, they live on the outskirts of this extremely remote outback town. He's a fly-in, fly-out worker at a nearby mine. And one day, the girls are at home alone and the lights go out, and everything with a microchip in it doesn't work anymore. So, their car doesn't work anymore. Petrol pumps don't work anymore, all sorts of things.

There's no communications, and so they can ride their bikes into the little, tiny town. Most of the men are not there because they've gone to work at this mine, which is a long drive away or a shorter flight, but maybe they can find a car that's made before 1980 that doesn't have a microchip in it.

But basically, these girls have to make this choice without their father to influence them. Do they follow his teachings, the extremely paranoid, insular teachings of a deranged doomsday prepper and keep their skills because they have been trained in these sort of survival skills? Do they keep that a secret? Do they keep their enormous bunker full of medical supplies and food a secret and just look after themselves? Or do they share their knowledge and their resources with the people in the town and try and build a sustainable community?

And much like 'The Erasure Initiative'-- I mean, much like all of my books, I think, I'm not interested in black-and-white white morality. I'm really interested in shades of grey and difficult choices. And I think this is a really great example. Because I would like to say that, if I were in this situation, I would always share and build community.

But at the end of the day, if you've got a year's worth of food buried in your backyard and you share it with your neighbours, then maybe somehow, it's only a month's worth of food and then, how do you protect your family? But on the flip side, are you OK with watching your neighbours' kids starve to death? And so, I think it is a really difficult choice, and I genuinely don't think that any of us would know what we would do unless we were put in that situation.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things that I really liked about this book is that it flips that dystopian, post-apocalyptic survival genre on its head. Normally in those types of stories, you have the protagonist that is in this new world where things don't work the way that they used to, resources are in short supply, there's not a lot of food, there's not a lot of whatever it is that they need to survive. And the struggle and the tension is all about trying to find those supplies.

But in this one, it's the opposite. Pru has all of those resources, as you said, and that tension comes from if she keeps them to herself and her sisters or if she shares them with her community. So, what made you want to tell this story from that type of angle?

LILI WILKINSON: So, I read this book when I started the idea of writing a story about the daughter of a doomsday prepper. Whenever I was looking at, what are other books about doomsday preppers, there was this one particular book called 'One Second After', I've forgotten who it's by, which is like every prepper's favourite novel. It's an American book, and I read it, and I hated it so much.

And I listened to the audiobook, and it was like the most classically toxic masculine book I'd ever read. And it was extremely American as well. So, within 5 minutes of this disaster-- it's the same premise, really, an electromagnetic pulse wipes all of the microchips and electricity in North America.

And within like 3 days of this happening in this book, everybody has guns, there are public executions in the town squares, everybody is killing each other. It's just absolute chaos. And all of the main characters are men. Girls and women are only there to either die and for the men to feel sad about or to be rescued.

And nobody gets to have a feeling. Like, the only time the men get to have a feeling is they will sing the National Anthem and say things like, 'Damn it, Jim, I thought we were men. I thought we were Americans.' And I just hated it so much. [chuckles] And I just couldn't stop thinking like, 'OK, if this happened in Australia,' I mean, 'I can guarantee, firstly, that the one thing we're not doing is singing the National Anthem.'

Of all things, that would be a plus that now we no longer have to sing the National Anthem because it's not a banger. But I was like, 'What if this happened to a small community that was mostly women? What would happen?' And like, 'Maybe they would just get it done.' Like, 'What if women were just sensible about it and nobody was trying to kill anybody?'

And look, that doesn't make for, necessarily, a very interesting book. So, of course, there are people making some mistakes, and there are also some guns. And so not everything goes smoothly. But I kind of like the idea that most of the people in the narrative were kind of-- had good intentions and were not entirely self-interested in everything.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it wasn't this foregone conclusion that every single character that you came across was going to try and attack you or kill you for your food and resources. There was a number of characters who genuinely wanted to try and make things work despite how difficult everything was.

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, and I hate the idea that, when a disaster comes, humans forget all notions of kindness. And I don't think that's true. I think it's a very ungenerous reading of the human spirit.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. What should readers reach for next if they loved the survival and moral dilemma and emotional weight of 'After the Lights Go Out'?

LILI WILKINSON: So, I think, firstly, I would recommend Claire Zorn's 'The Sky So Heavy' and its sequel, a quite similar premise in terms of survival and disaster and living in Australia during a disaster in particular. The other one is a slightly unusual one, but it is 'Waking Romeo' by Kathryn Barker, which sort of has some of the moral choices and some of that sort of survivalness, I think, of 'After the Lights Go Out' but has the wackiest premise of any book ever, because it is basically Heathcliff from 'Wuthering Heights' and Juliet from 'Romeo and Juliet' but in the future, and there's time travel.

JADE ARNOLD: But only time travel forward.

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, yeah, you can only go forward. And it is just the most wildly beautiful and complex book that just desperately needs to be studied in schools. So, if any teachers are listening, get it on a curriculum. Pair it with 'Romeo and Juliet'. It will blow your students' minds. It certainly blew mine.

JADE ARNOLD: It's fantastic. I remember just reading that, I borrowed an ebook from my school library at the time, being like, 'Oh, I've never heard of this before.' And I got to the end, and I'm like, 'Oh my God. What is this, and why is everyone not reading this?'

That book is also on the PRC book lists, very great look at-- and there's a lot of intertextuality there, too, as you said, 'Wuthering Heights' and 'Romeo and Juliet', and just gives Juliet's character a lot more depth. And I don't want to give too much away but definitely go and read it. It's amazing. Fantastic recommendations there. Thank you.

You've also written for younger readers with your 'Bravepaw' series, you've got 'The Heartstone of Alluria' and 'The Clawstone of Rotwood Mire' out so far, which are both on the 3 to 4 PRC book lists. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

LILI WILKINSON: So, 'Bravepaw' is every classic children's fantasy novel kind of rolled up into an adorable and extremely accessible package. So, it has the kind of bravery of things like the 'Alanna' books by Tamora Pierce or 'Lord of the Rings' or 'The Hobbit', but also the raw animal focus of something like 'Redwall'.

And I really just wanted to capture the joy that I had as a young reader reading that real classic children's fantasy. But my own kid is not as confident a reader as I was, so I really wanted to bring some of that fantasy energy into the junior fiction market, because we have so much great middle grade fantasy. But some of those books are really chunky. They're quite intimidating.

And a lot of our junior fiction is, for want of a better word, is silly. And I love all of those silly books. Like, I love me a 'Real Pigeons' or a 'Treehouse', but when it's all silly, that becomes a bit of a monolith. And when I was watching my own kid play, his imaginative play was high stakes. It was adventures, it was quests, it was saving the world.

And so, I wanted to bring in some of those bigger themes into a junior fiction space. So, the series is about Titch, who is the smallest mouse in her village, who discovers that she is in fact, the reincarnation of an ancient warrior called Bravepaw and that it is up to her to take this magical jewel, the heart stone of Alluria, and heal the crack in the world and stop these horrible monsters from coming out.

And she is doing it with the aid of her best friend, Huckleberry, who is the Samwise Gamgee to her Frodo. And there will be 4 books in this series, and it is just the most beautiful adventure. It is, I say, because I didn't do all of it because half of it is just stunningly illustrated by Lavanya Naidu, who has just absolutely captured the kind of whimsy and the fantasy that I just desperately wanted.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely adored Lavanya's illustrations as well. What was it like seeing Titch and her companions take this visual form? And did knowing that the books were going to be fully illustrated change the way that you wrote the story or structured the scenes?

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the great joys of working with an illustrator is that you get to share the storytelling load a little bit. You don't have to carry everything, and so you can be much lighter on description, which is great for young readers, obviously.

And I have been a big fan of Lavanya's for years and have wanted to work with her, and so, I was so happy when she agreed to come on board this project. And so, I just have felt like we have been completely in sync this whole time. She's just so beautifully captured the tone of the books. She just really, really understood what we were trying to do.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And one of the other things that I noticed about this story is that, in a lot of junior fiction titles, you'll have certain words emphasised. But in this in particular, you've got sometimes entire sentences or huge phrases that have that emphasis, and there's a lot of text changes, fonts a lot of the time. What's the process behind that? And is that done at an editorial level, or is it done at your level to help readers grasp onto the real important points in your story?

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, so it's a little bit of a blend of both of those things. And I think that one of the things we don't talk about a lot, particularly when it comes to junior fiction, is that I write the words. Lavanya does the pictures, and obviously, we have our brilliant editor, Sucheta, our wonderful publisher, Susannah.

But then, the extra person who I feel like never gets mentioned but needs to be mentioned is Kristy Lund-White, who is the designer of the books. And so, she is the one who decides how those books are going to be laid out. She is the ones who pulls out those sentences and those words. She is the one who blends text and image together so seamlessly. And it's such a skill, and she is so good at it and such an unsung hero of the process.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, as a teacher reading through it, you can really see how deliberate those choices have been to really emphasise either how a character's feeling or something that's really important for the reader to pay attention to so that it really helps developing readers manage that cognitive load of learning and processing what is actually happening on the pages in front of them and such an important tool.

And I guess what you were saying there about how there's so many people that work behind that process is that, obviously, there's a lot of importance to it, and there's a lot of thinking that happens to make sure that it is actually going to help rather than distract the reader.

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also really helps kids read aloud as well because it helps them to learn where to emphasise or where to change tone, which I think can be a really hard thing for readers who are still struggling to decode text at the same time is put expression into it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Decoding and comprehension are 2 very different things, but to be able to practise meshing them together with that kind of text is such a great stepping stone in their reading journey.

Another series of yours for younger readers is the 'How to Make a Pet Monster' series. How would you describe this series to a young reader who is standing between the bookshelves?

LILI WILKINSON: So, this is another junior fiction series that's wildly accessible, fully illustrated, a short chapter book for young readers. And it is about Artie and Willow, who are new to each other, step siblings who have just moved in together into this big, old spooky house for the first time.

And in the attic, because every big, old spooky house has to have a big, old spooky attic, they discover a book, and this book is a recipe book of how to make monsters. And Artie is, he is a very quiet, sciencey, shy child, and Willow is extremely loud. She's extremely bossy. And so, Willow was like, 'Let's make the biggest, weirdest monster we can.' And Artie is like, 'Well, firstly, you can't make a monster because science. But secondly, if you could, that sounds like a terrible idea.'

But Willow kind of bosses him into it. But they don't have the right magical ingredients. They don't have a Gryphon's feather or a witch's sock. So, instead, they just use one of mum's socks or a seagull feather that they find in the backyard. And so, because they have substituted with around-the-house ingredients, the monster that they end up making is an around-the-house monster.

And so, in book one, it's Hodgepodge, who is sort of a very adorable, little farty monster, who can fart any smell that he has tasted. And there are subsequent monsters for different books. And so, it is just about the shenanigans that they all get up to.

JADE ARNOLD: Now, 'Hodgepodge', which is the first book of your 'How to Make a Pet Monster' series, is such a delight. But beneath all of the flatulence and the monster madness, it explores this evolving family structure and really shines a light on non-traditional households and the power of imagination and friendship. What inspired this mix of really heartfelt themes and chaotic fun?

LILI WILKINSON: This is one of those things where I should have a made-up answer. But to be entirely honest with you, I've gotten quite a lot of feedback from, particularly from parents in blended families about how great it is to read this story. And I honestly didn't even think about it. I just wanted a reason why these 2 kids didn't know each other but were in a house together.

And so, that just felt like the most logical and convenient way to do it. But receiving all of that feedback from families, from blended families was so beautiful, and I hadn't really realised-- because of my own privilege, I guess-- how rare those stories are. And so, I really tried to lean into it in subsequent books and explore these dynamics. Because it is, obviously, very hard for complete-stranger children to become siblings, particularly when they have very different personalities and also to deal with parents.

Artie is not quite sure what to call Willow's dad, who is now the partner of his mum. You can't call him Dad, but you can't call him Mr-- I can't remember what his surname is. But so, he just kind of calls him David, but actually he just sort of avoids calling him anything at all.

And so, I did kind of want to explore some of those ideas because, I mean, I think all good literature does that is sort of even-- like, I think very serious literature should have funny bits, and I think very funny literature should have serious bits. I feel like if it's all one or all the other, I'm not really interested.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And for junior readers who've loved either 'Bravepaw' or the 'How to Make a Pet Monster' series, what other junior fiction titles would you recommend?

LILI WILKINSON: I really love the 'Wylah the Koorie Warrior' books by Jordan Gould and Richard Pritchard. They're just so beautiful and so engaging in such a great kind of way of introducing a lot of young readers to First Nations stories and First Nations characters. I also really love the 'Sherlock Bones' series of graphic novels, which are such a kind of delightful, humorous mystery solving as well, sort of the Sherlock Holmes-style mystery, except the protagonist is a taxidermied bird in a natural history museum. Brilliant.

And then, for slightly older readers who perhaps are interested in stepping into that middle grade fantasy space, I really love 'Washpool' by Lisa Fuller, beautiful middle grade book and also the 'Landovel' series by Emily Rodda was also just such a cracking great classic fantasy read.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely, some fantastic recommendations there. Are you currently working on anything new? And if so, are you allowed to share those details with us?

LILI WILKINSON: So, I'm currently working on books 3 and 4 of 'Bravepaw', both of which will be out next year. So, that's one thing. I'm working on a new young adult novel at the moment, which is currently called 'Oubliette' but will not remain being called 'Oubliette' because the Americans don't like it.

And it is a high-fantasy romance about a girl who is stuck inside a house. She's a maid to an eccentric old woman, and she can't leave the house that she works in and has perhaps never left it, and then another girl who is an evil knight, basically, who is a knight for this army of a dark lord's army, essentially, who deserts from the army. And these 2 girls get thrown together and go on an adventure together.

JADE ARNOLD: I can't wait for all of those. They sound so exciting. A lot of our listeners are teacher librarians or teachers who are PRC coordinators, people who are, essentially, passionate about nurturing a love of reading in their students. What advice would you give them about reading in schools and encouraging young readers?

LILI WILKINSON: So, I think I've probably got 2 pieces of advice. One is, wherever possible, to keep set text lists updated. You know, I think the more-- and particularly, the more you can inject literature for young people into it, the better. I think we do move on to adult literature too early when teaching kids. There is so much amazing young adult literature that is specifically written for young people that has incredible depth of theme, just as much as adult literature, but it is more engaging for young readers.

And the more we can engage them, the better. I think giving young people more agency in which books they read, which books they choose, also makes a really big difference. And then, a practical thing that I just desperately want to happen is I would love to see schools do on a Friday afternoon after lunch or whenever, a 30-minute silent reading for the whole school.

And when I say the whole school, I do not mean just the students. I do not mean just the English teachers. I want the maths teachers reading. I want the PE teachers reading. I want the people in the office to be reading. I want the guy who mows the lawn to be reading. If you are on campus at that time, you must be reading a book.

And I just feel like that-- reading is not just for English. Reading is not just for school. Reading is for everybody. And it is fun and enjoyable for everybody, and I would love to see that kind of habit be developed.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a powerful way to show to students as well, that reading is valuable and important and enjoyable is to see the adults in their lives who are constantly asking them, 'Hey, you should read more. Why aren't you reading more?' To actually be role modelling that reading themselves and to be, outside of those times, talking about the books that they're reading with their students as well.

So, fantastic advice there. Are there any junior fiction or YA books that you haven't mentioned today already that you think our listeners need to know about?

LILI WILKINSON: Yeah, so, one series that I would love to highlight that I think would be really great for reluctant readers, in particular, is by Skye Melki-Wegner, and it's 'The Deadlands' series, which is a trilogy of books about clans of dinosaurs going to war with each other. And they are so good, and they've got like so many things that will be appealing to reluctant readers, but they are also just genuinely great, engaging adventure stories with really beautiful characters and lots of exploration of themes of friendship and difference and how we have more things that bring us together than things that separate us.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's fantastic. And my final question for you today, what are you reading currently or what are you excited to dive into next?

LILI WILKINSON: So, a book that I just finished reading is a new Australian Torres Strait Islander author called Jasmin McGaughey, and she has written 'Moonlight and Dust', which will be out later this year with Allen & Unwin, and it is this beautiful kind of mix of friendship and family and secrets, and it's told in this really unique and beautiful way. So, I recommend everybody keeps their eye out for that.

And the other one that I really liked is, 'This Stays Between Us' by Margot McGovern, which is a horror novel. I know that a lot of young readers are really desperate for horror at the moment, and this one is about 4 girls in a cabin in an abandoned town, and there's a ghost. And it's, sort of-- again-- it's sort of about friendship but also a bit of a love letter to '90s horror that I just devoured.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, awesome. This is the second time Jasmin's books come up. We interviewed Lisa Fuller a few episodes ago, and we spoke at length about that one, too. So, clearly, all the signs are pointing to, I need to read that book ASAP.

LILI WILKINSON: Definitely.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you so much for joining me today, Lili. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your books, and I have no doubt that our listeners with teen readers in their lives will be eager to dive into your books and into your recommendations as they work to complete the NSW's Premier's Reading Challenge.

LILI WILKINSON: Thanks so much, Jade.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you so much for spending time with me today. For our listeners, we've included a full list of Lili's featured titles as well as all the books that have been mentioned in this episode in the show notes on the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' page. You can use it to help track titles down from your local bookshop or library and share them with young people in your life. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode of 'Between the bookshelves'. Happy reading!

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education, as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at [email protected].

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

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ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

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JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education in children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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Welcome to episode 10 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by the incredibly talented Jess Racklyeft, an award-winning author and illustrator whose beautiful, nature-rich artworks have captured the imaginations of readers all over Australia. Jess is best known for her dreamy, layered watercolours and her work on beloved titles like 'Iceberg', 'Tree' and 'Volcano', which were written by Claire Saxby, as well as her own author-illustrated picture books, like 'There's Only One Mum Like You', 'Australia: Country of Colour', 'Big Cat' and many more.

Her books have received numerous accolades, including the CBCA Picture Book of the Year Award, and they're firm favourites in classrooms, libraries and reading nooks across the country. And if her artwork looks familiar beyond the bookshelf, it might be because Jess was also the illustrator of last year's official CBCA Book Week poster. Jess, thank you so much for joining me. How are you?

JESS RACKLYEFT: I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's start with some quick-fire questions to get to know you a little better. Just go with your first instinct. You can elaborate on them if you wish. What is your go-to art supply that you always have on hand?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Well, as you mentioned in your intro, I am a big fan of watercolours, so that would probably be my favourite. And brushes. And it's always just such a treat to go to the art shop and wander around and find new stuff.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, amazing. If you could illustrate the story of any Australian animal that you haven't yet worked with, which one would you pick?

JESS RACKLYEFT: That's a great question. I'm originally from Perth, and I do have a very fond soft spot for quokkas. So, maybe a quokka book would be great, but pretty much any animal, I enjoy painting it.

JADE ARNOLD: I think those quokkas would be absolutely adorable, illustrated by you. I hope there's one in the future. [laughs]

JESS RACKLYEFT: We'll see. We'll see.

JADE ARNOLD: If you could magically illustrate one book from your childhood, what would it be?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Oh, such good questions. Well, I was a big reader. I loved Roald Dahl. And then as I got older, I got really into fantasy books. But yeah, maybe something magical, Roald Dahl-esque.

'James and the Giant Peach' would be good, but pretty much any of his books would be great. I mean, they're obviously quite big books to be illustrating a lot of, but I don't know if there has been fully-illustrated Roald Dahl books. I reckon that would be pretty amazing, actually.

JADE ARNOLD: And it'd be such an interesting take to see your illustrations in those titles.

JESS RACKLYEFT: That would be great fun.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] When you're not drawing or painting, what do you love to do to recharge?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Well, we just bought our first property out of Melbourne. So, it's a really amazing spot, and it's surrounded by trees and birds. So, if you sit on the deck, you can just see probably about 20 different types of birds in 20 minutes. So, that's my favourite thing to do with a cup of tea. It's joyous.

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds absolutely beautiful. I'm a little jealous. [laughs]

JESS RACKLYEFT: [laughs] It is pretty deluxe. I'm pretty blown away with it, and just the fresh air and getting out. I love Melbourne, but it is always just so great to get away.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Now, in our last episode, I had the absolute pleasure of talking with Claire Saxby, and we spoke about some of the incredible books that you have created together. I'd love to hear your perspective as the illustrator on these collaborations, and of course, your own 'between the bookshelves' pitch for them. Let's start with 'Iceberg', the CBCA Picture Book of the Year. How did you approach this really stunning and layered story visually, and how would you pitch it to a reader browsing the shelves and thinking about picking it up?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, so when they contacted me to tell me that I had the job to work with Claire Saxby, I was actually quite surprised and extremely nervous because I usually do books that are for younger kids, simpler language. And when I read the text, I just thought it was so beautiful. But I knew it was obviously very scientific, and it was going to be a really challenging book for me.

So, in terms of the visual language, I first was freaked out. And then I had a lot of fun researching Antarctica. And Claire had done a lot of research, which she shared, thankfully, but then also watching documentaries and watching things live and how they move. So, watching icebergs calving, and the look of ice falling into the water, how that looks. So, I was doing a lot of research and then just got drawing.

And it was a lot of give and take with the editor, Claire. We were all working really closely on it. And we talked about how to get across this lead character, which was an iceberg, which is also very unusual. Instead of being a human or maybe an animal character, we had an iceberg to focus on.

So, the first thing we did was make sure the iceberg was recognisable and stood out from the other characters in brackets. And I tried a few different techniques. In the end, we made it slightly brighter than the other ice formations, but I tried different techniques. At first, I tried it looking darker. We even tried drawing a slight face on it, which looked totally ridiculous. And I'm so glad we didn't go with that option. That was a silly idea.

And then we made the ice move from one side of the book to the other. So, if you look at each spread, the iceberg slowly travels across. So, you can keep an eye on the character.

And then the other thing that explained, I guess, the meaning of the book and the changing seasons was changing the horizon line. So, it starts in the darkness, but you only have a small slice of the sky. And then each spread, the horizon line dropped down. So, when you got to summer, it had this big, open feeling. Yeah, so I think that was my main techniques.

And then I had a lot of fun. When you look closely, I thought ice was just a nice, big, white triangle. And then as I was researching, I got to know, and Claire's language, I got to realise that ice had all these really subtle formations in it, so I wanted the iceberg to look really textured. And I had really a fun time splattering things and scraping things and making monoprints and then scanning them all into my computer. And then I would layer watercolour, which is quite soft, with these really sharp textures. After a lot of experimentation, I was quite happy with the way that that looked.

And in terms of a pitch about maybe seeing it on a bookshelf, I would just say, I guess the book appeals. And I think the reason it did so well at the CBCA is, the language is just so beautifully poetic, but it's non-fiction, which I think is a bit of a magic combination. And then in terms of the art, I think there's a really lovely relationship between the words and the text.

In some books, the illustrator really needs to add and almost create a second meaning to the words. But in this one, it was actually more of a fun exploration of the environment and just really trying to convey the beauty and the extremely powerful nature world down there, which we can't exactly travel to easily to see in person. But through all this research, I think I got to a place where I feel like I captured the feeling of Antarctica.

JADE ARNOLD: It's so interesting to see how much research goes into not just writing the book with Claire's end, but on your end to make those images authentic and really convey the feeling of Antarctica, and as you were saying, bring focus to our main iceberg that we're following throughout the story. Yeah, that's really interesting. The next one I wanted to ask you about was 'Tree', which follows the life of a single tree over the seasons. How did you go about capturing its changing environment?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, so I guess after doing 'Iceberg', which was all research-based and no in-person, it was really special to be able to go not that far from Melbourne into these mountain ash forests. And we had a really special day with a ranger there and just took so many photos and videos. And in the centre there where the ranger works from, they have all these stuffed animals, which is actually really quite a gift for an illustrator because online, you only have certain angles of animals, and you can't always find what you want.

But I could move around the animals in a 360, look at them from underneath, and on top, and that sort of thing. And then, yeah, just seeing these beautiful mountain ash-- I'm such a big fan of that wet environment, coming from dry Perth. The minute I got to Melbourne, and I saw even the Dandenong Ranges and the amazing tree ferns and things like that, I just love it so much. So, it was a really special time researching.

And then I have a few books on Victorian forests, and Claire lent me some again. So, I had lots of books to research from. I think image-wise, there's actually not that many great images of these trees, because they are only found in small territories in Victoria and Tasmania. So, there's not a huge array of photos or videos. But after spending that day in the forest and filling up my phone with images, I had lots of good references that I could use for the book and had a lot of fun changing the environment so extremely from icebergs into this really wet forest. It was really great fun to make.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, of course. And I feel like a field trip like that would be really important to get a sense of the scale of those trees, especially with the double-spread page in the middle of the book, where you've got that full height of the tree. I feel like that would be something that would be really hard to capture. Even if there was a lot of photos or videos of those types of trees, seeing it in person really helps you capture that massive scale.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Exactly. It makes such a big difference. And there is something magical about being in-person, because there's also that extra senses of the smells and the feeling of that environment.

And it's like, obviously, I can't convey that accurately back onto paper, but I feel like there's something that's transferred in that. I just feel like they're quite magical, those forests, and you can feel it in the air. And so, I was trying to put all sprinkles and little almost magical fairy lights in the background, because that's what it does feel like.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting how your artwork captures the feelings of what you experienced when you were there, and why that's such, I guess, an important part of bringing that book to life, is having that real illustrator's vision and feeling and, I guess, idea of what it should look like in relation to how it feels like.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, that's, I guess, the aim and the hope. And maybe sometimes it is successful, and other times it's not, but yeah. And I think back to, at the very beginning, I was saying how intimidated I was about Claire's text and me changing.

I think it's been really great fun to do these books because they're definitely a different style. They're still scrappy and loose, and sometimes I'm not doing them accurately. But they are-- in my head, they're a bit more technically close to the real thing. And yeah, I'm trying to convey some scientific information, but also that wordless feeling of being there.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's that really interesting blend of, it's really identifiably your artwork, but with a slightly different, I guess, tone to it.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, so it's quite great fun for me because it is intimidating, but it's really good to get pushed and try something different.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. 'Whisper on the Wind' Is this really rich title full of feeling and atmosphere. What was your approach to creating that real quiet magic in the illustrations? And was it a little bit different because this one was actually a narrative, as opposed to narrative non-fiction?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, it was quite different and, I guess, in some ways, a bit closer to my normal work, usually probably working with fiction. But then there was also another big challenge, which was, it was during extreme lockdowns in Melbourne. And I had 2 young kids trying to homeschool. One had just started prep.

And my husband's a teacher, so he was online all day with his students. So, it was a pretty horrific time. The first colour samples, I got the message from the editor and publisher that they were feeling dark and depressing. And I was like, well, I kind of understood why, because I was really struggling.

I used to have to get up at 4 am and do a few hours on this book in particular and then get the kids going and try and survive all that. So, then after I got that feedback, I was like, 'Oh, yeah, this really isn't feeling--' I didn't feel like I'd captured the magic of the words and the feeling that I wanted to give away. So, I called that the winter edition, and then I almost scrapped a lot of it.

And I redid a lot of it, and I called it the spring edition, because I was like, 'OK, that's it. I've got to really get back to the feeling of joy that I want to convey.' And it was actually quite, in a weird way, psychologically powerful or affirmative to know that I could lift myself out of this depressing time in some small way. Yeah, I was a lot happier with the second round, and then it got to a better place.

But yeah, again, the words were very powerful and magical, and that makes me want to do work that matches it at least. So, I had a lot of fun creating it. And some of those big scenes in there took a long time with all the different sea creatures. And Claire also likes throwing me lots of nice challenges, like painting the ocean at night is not an exactly easy task. So, that makes me have to change things and not do it in my typical sort of way. So, it was very, very challenging, I think.

If people have sometimes asked me, 'What has been your hardest book?' and I say 'That one', but it was not just what I was painting; it was the time of my life then. So, it was really tough. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, the Melbourne lockdowns were pretty horrific. And it's unsurprising that, I guess, it influenced your artwork in that way, but also so lovely to hear that it was something that eventually could pull you out of that really rough time.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, there's a lot of obviously different aspects of life then, but art is always so therapeutic. And the other thing I got into doing was doing massive paintings, abstract paintings, which I'd never done before. And I think that was just this burning, like, 'Ah, get me out of here,' in this tiny house with all the kids and everything. It was just so chaotic, so I just-- art was very therapeutic and helped me get through a tough time.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, wonderful. And finally, your most recent title with Claire, 'Volcano', is this bold, dramatic book. How would you describe this book to young readers, and what was it like to illustrate something so powerful?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, so for young readers, I would say, I had never heard of an underwater volcano before. And so, it's just such an incredible thing that, deep down in the ocean, in this pitch black, cold water, that magma and these rocks are getting made, and then these life forms that grow around it, which are only just starting to really be researched. So, I think for young readers, it's just incredibly interesting and also fun. Kids love volcanoes almost as much as dinosaurs. So, I think it's a combination of something we all know and is quite iconic with these really interesting, unknown building blocks, which is deep down in the ocean.

So, it was really, again, challenging because black oceans are very sparse. So, nothing happens for miles, and then these life forms start. So, it was very intimidating again.

The extra layer of difficulty for this one is that there's obviously not many photographs or images of volcanoes exploding underwater. So, I even was ordering some really obscure videos from 20 years ago. And then it was a DVD, and we didn't have a DVD player anymore. So, it was just really tough doing the research for it, but again, Claire had done a lot.

And every now and then, I'd ask her a question that she would normally know the answer. And I used all the information sources I could find. So, it was very hard. But once it got to the surface and things explode, it was just so much fun. And I had a really good time.

Again, something new, but I was-- each time, I tried to do the books quite differently. And for this one, I got sand from the playground. I got ink and rocks, and I would just go crazy making these textures, which I scanned and made into all these lava rocks. So, that was really fun.

And the explosions. I couldn't quite capture an explosion red with even watercolours, so I found digital colour was actually the best to capture that vibrancy. So, I had lots of fun combining all these different things. And it was more of a fun experiment than a hard thing to do, I guess.

JADE ARNOLD: Claire really likes, by the sounds of it, to give you some really tricky content to illustrate, doesn't she? [laughs]

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, she really does. She really does. I don't know if it's me or Claire. But I think-- yeah, I guess these are things that are usually not very known environments. So, there's a lot of background work before I get started, which is fun, but intimidating.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, well, you've done a wonderful job at capturing them. But the thing that I wanted to ask you next about is that a lot of people, when they think of your name, they would know you well as an illustrator. But you've also written and illustrated some absolutely beautiful books by yourself. So, can you tell me a little bit about what inspired you to write, and how that process differs when you're creating both the words and the pictures on your own?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, so I think I never thought I was allowed to write as well because I didn't feel-- I don't know who gives you a writer's certificate or crown, but I had never received one. And I didn't feel like I could do it. But I do quite like an email banter with the publishers and editors, and one of them was like, 'You seem like you're quite a verbal-- you enjoy a bit of writing, so can you please write us some books about mums and dads and things like that?'

So, I was like, 'OK.' So, I got started on it. And I was very unsure of it, but I did it. And they were happy. And they got started, and they did really well.

And then-- I still feel very intimidated writing. And I've done lots of writing courses. And I treat it like I did with illustration, which was, it's something to learn and a craft that could take a long time.

But I think the next big, exciting challenge for me was writing non-fiction. So, I did this big book, 'Australia's Country of Colour', and that involved just so much research. So, each animal and plant, I had to spend a long time finding scientific papers on to write a few lines. And then we found out that we could barely fit-- I'd written about 5 sentences per animal or plant, and then we realised that only 2 would fit.

So, after 90 pages of writing, it got whittled down to a third of that. So, it was really a huge learning curve, but I think it was really affirming for me that that book has done well. And it's had some nice accolades, so I feel really proud. So, it's been really exciting that I feel my writers crown is slowly being passed over. And I'm getting more confident in it, but I still have a lot to learn.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Wow, wonderful. You've touched on some of the books that I wanted to talk about next, so thank you for that perfect segue there. Let's do some 'between the bookshelf' pitches.

So, let's imagine that we've got a young reader or the adult that's with them. They're standing between the bookshelves of their school library, public library, their bookshop, and they see your books there on the shelves. They're considering taking one of them home. What would you say to spark their curiosity for those first books that you were mentioning, 'There's Only One Mum Like You', 'There's Only One Dad Like You', 'There's Only One Grandma Like You'? How would you describe them to those young readers?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, so, I'd say, they're very sweet books that hopefully encourage parents and kids to read together. I love that I was allowed to throw in every animal I could think of into the book, so there's not one character that is on every page. It's all broken down to animals. And I love doing animals as characters because I feel like anyone can relate, because it's not like the person has a certain skin tone or size or gender. It's just lovely to be able to put human characteristics into animal books. So, I think they're sweet and affirming for your relationships with your near and dear.

And I also did a book called 'There's Only One Friend Like You', which is also great for just kids learning to navigate their first playground relationships and that sort of thing, but talking about kindness, and being there for your friends, and working together, and that sort of thing. So, they're really lovely books.

JADE ARNOLD: That's beautiful. And I think those are fantastic books for young readers to pick up and really explore those relationships in this very beautifully illustrated and well-written little narrative. The other one that you mentioned was 'Australia: Country of Colour'. It's this really vibrant celebration of the seasons across our landscape. What inspired this book, and how would you describe that one to a curious reader?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, so that book was inspired because I knew, if I was going to do a bigger non-fiction book, that I would have to do lots of research. And I knew that I'm very easily distracted and get bored easily. So, I was trying to think of things that I really love. And obviously, I love colour and artwork, and I love travelling Australia, and I love nature. So, it was like, putting all that together felt like a really lovely framework to do all this research.

And then I think the reason the books have done so well is the unsaid hero of publishing, which is the designer. So, Kristy Lund-White was the designer for this book. So, for the first time-- usually, I do roughs, and then we work out where the words fit and that sort of thing. But Affirm Press kindly let me just jump straight into the colour illustrations, which I think gave me a freedom to just do them the best way I could think of, rather than making sure that they fit into the text.

But that made the work harder, I'm sure, for Kristy, because she got a certain amount of words and a certain amount of images, and she had to piece it all together, which just would have been such a painful process, I'm sure. But she did such a beautiful job. And when I wrote it and I drew it and I sent it all away, and when she sent it back, I was just like, 'Oh my god, it looks so beautiful,' and I really don't think it would have worked as it has without her talent.

So, I guess my pitch is that it's a beautiful combination of design and words and pictures to create a non-fiction book that's really quite accessible. None of the information is overwhelming. It's bit-sized bits of information. And hopefully it's quite fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I think it is very fun, personally. [laughs] Another one that I wanted to ask you about was 'Big Cat', which is this book that's full of adventure and gentle surprises. What was the seed of the story, and how would you pitch that also to this young reader standing between the bookshelves?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Oh, thank you. I feel like that book didn't do well on the prize circuit, and it hasn't sold a huge amount, but I feel so proud of it. And I feel like it really is a special book.

So, I was really lucky to receive my first grant, and it's from the City of Melbourne, and they gave me access to the Arts and Heritage Collection, which is a secret bunker in the city. And they have several stories of old Melbourne treasures.

So, there's things like formal paintings of old mayors, and then there's things from the Olympics and just these treasures. And again, it was still lockdown. So, lots of books have come from lockdown.

But I wrote the book thinking about the pressures of being stuck in this very small environment in our home, and then in our 5-kilometre radius. But I was also trying to think of the positive side, which for us, was getting to know our neighbourhood a little bit differently. And this book is meant to encourage, hopefully, a look at wherever you live a little bit differently. And it's all about this big cat that helps this girl that lives in the city in a pretty linear way.

And then suddenly, the cat shakes up her experience of it, and she gets quite adventurous. And they go and find new things and new ways of moving through the world. So, it's a bit of a combination of all these pieces. An exploration of Melbourne, for sure, because there's lots of Arts and Heritage Collection pieces in the book, but also hopefully a book that encourages kids to get out there and go and explore their environments in new ways.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. I think you touched on this when you mentioned that this wasn't really highlighted during the awards circuit. And every year, the CBCA book lists show us some fantastic stories. But obviously, awards can only show you so many, and there's still so many fantastic books to explore outside that award list. And just because it hasn't been nominated or hasn't made it onto a shortlist or anything like that doesn't mean that it's not a fantastic book to explore.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, totally. And I try and pass that message on to especially new creators that might feel quite heartbroken when they don't find their book on certain longlists and that sort of thing, because it doesn't reflect the talent or the work put into it at all. It's just, obviously, there's only a limited amount of places and judges that have their own likes and dislikes and that sort of thing. So, it's very common and easy to not make it, but it doesn't reflect the work and the amazing book that they've created.

JADE ARNOLD: I'd like to ask a few questions about your illustration process next, if that's OK. When you receive a manuscript, how do you begin visualising the story? What does that creative process look like, from the first read of the manuscript to the finished artwork?

JESS RACKLYEFT: The very first thing is just to read it, and often just read it again and again, and maybe just be forming some mental images. And then, depending on the book-- so for Claire's, I'd definitely be launching into research mode. But for other books that are fictional, I would just be thinking about the feeling that I get from the words and how I want to possibly turn that into images.

And then storyboarding. So, that's looking very scrappily on tiny, little boxes, but trying to work out the flow of the story visually. And then the next stage is creating roughs, which are black-line artworks that are very scrappy, but you can build a sense of where things are going to sit and where the words are going to sit. And then that will go back and forward with the editor or art director. And then once everyone's happy with the way the book's looking and feeling, then it'll be the artwork creation.

And I do try and try something new for every book. So, even though watercolours are my prime love and usually are in my books, I often try and have some experimental technique, so I'm not just relying on my stock, standard process. So, that's really fun.

Yeah, and then the colouring and the creation is usually working on paper and then scanning it into my computer, and then either layering other images in my computer, or using digital brushes to add to it, or change light and shades and fixing up mistakes. So, I think of myself as a bit of a combo digital and analogue artist. And I quite like that freedom of being able to change things easily online, but also the wild mess that can get created with watercolours, which I don't think you can really quite do on computers yet. So, I like experimenting.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. So, you've illustrated both fictional stories and factual and scientific picture books. Do you approach each type differently in terms of colour, texture or detail, or are they really similar in how you approach them?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, I think they're all different. But also, hopefully each book is different, even if it's fiction or non-fiction. So, I guess in non-fiction, in general, I'm trying to draw things possibly a little bit more accurately. And there's a bit more freedom with fiction to do things however I want. But yeah, I definitely don't try and separate the 2 in terms of technique and process because, yeah, I have fun, just as much fun, splattering and scanning weird textures and things like that in non-fiction as I do in fiction, if that makes sense.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful.

JESS RACKLYEFT: [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Many of our listeners are teacher librarians or parents who are selecting books for young readers. What role do you think picture books play in helping children fall in love with reading?

JESS RACKLYEFT: It's probably the most beautiful first stage of a kid's life reading, hopefully for many years ahead. So, when my kids were little, we used to go to the storytime when they were babies. And just seeing their faces light up, both with the presenter and the way the words are conveyed, but also seeing the images, and also that familiarity with knowing certain books, because you read them again and again-- and then at some stage, they start pointing to certain words because they've heard you say it so many times. But they can start piecing together these words and the images and identifying words.

So, my 3-year-old just suddenly could read. And I just-- he wasn't learning at kinder or anything. It was just like he suddenly could identify 'the' and blah, blah, blah. So, I thought that was just so magical to watch.

And then picture books, really, it's not just about reading, it's absorbing art and experiencing the world through these pages and seeing places that they have never been, or even these imagined worlds, which are from the mind of the artist. So, I think it's a really powerful time to spend with kids, either as a parent or teacher. And then they will begin picking them up and reading them on their own. And yeah, it's a very magical job to be able to be involved in that time in a kid's life. So, I feel very grateful I get to do that.

My kids are now-- one just started high school, so they're not reading so many picture books anymore. But I still bring them home from the library, and I'm like, 'Oh, look at this one.' And the non-fiction books, in particular, are still firm favourites at our house. So, it's a really great job. And even adults should be able to go to the library and get some great picture books, if they please.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. I do that on the regular. And that's something that we were talking about with Claire in the last episode, about how picture books aren't just for beginning readers.

Absolutely, they're part of that introduction to reading for young children. But a lot of your books are on the K to 2 book list, all the way up to the 5 to 6 book list, which is the universal book list. And students in Years 7 to 10 can also read those books as part of their PRC journey. And it's so lovely to hear also that your own children, despite being in high school, are still spending some time reading picture books, even if it's not as often as it used to be. I think they're these beautifully rich texts that we don't age out of.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, exactly. And I think the other thing that I've been trying to incorporate more and more into my own school visits is that artmaking can often-- it comes naturally, and it's pretty wild and fun when kids are young. But as they get older, they start going, 'Oh, my bird doesn't look like the picture.' And they get frustrated and don't want to do it anymore, and especially the ones that aren't so accurate.

Because I used to have a chip on my shoulder that, 'Oh, I can't do non-fiction because I can't paint things scientifically accurate. I'm terrible at it.' So, I thought I wasn't allowed to do it. But as I say to the kids, it's all about just building your own style and having a good time doing it. It doesn't have to look perfect. So, accessing images, and especially when they are in the older years, is really important, and encouraging them as well to create their own. So, they don't have to be thinking of themselves as an artistic type to have the freedom to be able to draw and have fun doing it, hopefully.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. I love watercolours myself. I would not consider myself an artist in any way, shape or form. Certainly not great. And I don't really know what I'm doing.

But there's something just lovely and freeing about playing with watercolours on the page and the way that they move in unexpected ways. And there's that real joy in creativity and making yourself really think it doesn't matter if it doesn't look like what I intend it to. It's just fun.

And if you spend more time in that process, that's where you can really develop skill and your own, I guess, artistic style. Or you can just have a lot of fun and then really appreciate the artwork that you see. Because when you try things, you realise, and you appreciate just how hard it is to create that and how much skill actually goes into illustrations.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, totally agree. And again, I tell the kids that any of the pages of my book-- like I was saying about using Photoshop and using the computer a lot, I can't paint a full scene on a piece of paper and go, 'Cool, that's ready to go to the printers.' I spend a lot of time making mess, and scanning things in, and fixing it and changing it.

So, yeah, there's real, hopefully, liberation for people reading picture books, and knowing the background of how they were created, to do their own and have fun doing it. Because it is all about that enjoyable time, just getting messy and letting the colours go crazy. So, yeah, it's good fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Are there any illustrators or books that inspired you when you were growing up, or that you now return to for creative inspiration?

JESS RACKLYEFT: I remember when I was a kid, there's this famous book that has squashed fairies in it. I can't remember what it's called, but that was-- I remember seeing that and just being like-- it was just so funny, and then also so beautiful and magical. And I just thought it was great.

And then as an adult, I love Anna Walker. And when I first started in picture books, or even before I got actually my first job, I contacted her and asked her if she'd mind meeting me to just get an insight into how it works as a job. And she was so kind and let me come and chat and show her my portfolio. And she gave me great feedback.

And we've maintained a really nice relationship. And she's been the art director for some of my books, and I consider her a really great friend now. So, I feel like she's been a huge influence on me and my work. And I feel very grateful that she has allowed me to bother her with all my silly questions over the years.

And yeah, there's lots of iconic-- I remember also, at school, Roland Harvey used to have these big sticker calendar books that we used to get through the book club. And they were always so exciting, and also, all the micro-details, which is not something that I do. But I really love artists that can do these very detailed, and you have to spend hours finding all the bits and pieces in the image. So, yeah, lots of different people have been very inspiring.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, of course. Is the book, the squashed fairies one, 'Lady Cottington's Pressed Fairy Book'?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yes, that sounds exactly right, although it's very--

JADE ARNOLD: I remember reading that one as a kid.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yes, I wish I-- I should keep my eyes out at the op shop because I'd love to see it again. I don't know if it's still in print, but it was just so funny and fun.

JADE ARNOLD: I loved it so much, but I also felt a little bit bad for the fairies. I'm just like, 'Oh, you're so pretty,' but also, 'Oh, no, you're squished.'

JESS RACKLYEFT: I know. What a cheeky idea. I love it. And I love it when you have books that interact with the format of the pages and the art and the words. It's just such a clever thing to do. And I wish I could come up with an idea like that, but they're obviously-- you need to wait for that strike of genius because they're hard to do well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. For readers who've loved your books, what other illustrators or picture books would you recommend they explore next?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Well, I guess, talking about Claire and my work. Claire's got a big back catalogue. And I love all of her books because she's worked with so many different artists, and they're all quite different, but they all-- you can really feel Claire's influence on both the artists and the feeling of the book. So, I think I'd recommend her.

Obviously, Anna Walker. I'm a big fan and friend of Davina Bell, and I love all of her books. She's just so clever. I love Alison Lester's books, and they're-- she's done an amazing book on Antarctica last year as well.

Yeah, there's so many. I feel bad because there's a lot of friends and talented people in the industry. Renée Treml has just done a beautiful graphic novel that she spent years creating. That only came out last month. Yeah, there's lots of friends and talented people. So, I just think kids should just get out to either the bookshop or the library and grab a stack and have fun exploring.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's hard to figure out where you need to stop. Oh, I'm trying to think. Renée's work. I feel like I might have seen that come into our office. Is it 'The Thylacine and the Time Machine' one?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, yes, yes. I think we entered that into our system to review last week.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Oh, great. Oh, fantastic!

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and it looked like such-- I literally just flicked it open as I was putting it into our system, but it looks so fun.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, because she used to work in science. I can't quite remember her role, but I think that has definitely influenced her. She does huge amounts of research and then can explain things in a quite scientific-- it's almost like a bit of a Claire skill, but totally different way. She can make science accessible. So, I think it's a great book.

JADE ARNOLD: Are there any standout titles that you think are essential for a school library collection?

JESS RACKLYEFT: I do think the CBCA shortlist is a great place to have a wide variety of really good books. And yeah, it was really exciting being on it because I think it's quite diverse, but they are really amazing books all the time, every year. And then also, I'd say to have artists and authors from the area that I live in, because I think it's just such a nice thing to be able to possibly get them into your library or school. And also, where the author and illustrator live often influences their work, so you can feel of where that book's been made and possibly chat to them about it personally.

I'd say they're probably my top 2 tips, but obviously, there's just so many good ones. So, it's a really, again, tough question to think about. It must be a tough job. I don't know how they work all this stuff out.

JADE ARNOLD: Look, collection development is a long and constant process. But I think having author visits come in and then being able to give those books to your students when they've got that connection with the author or the illustrator is such a great way to spark that enthusiasm, and to make students a little bit more curious about that book-writing process. Because I think it's easy when you're younger, or even if you're just not super aware of the writing process-- it's easy to disconnect the book from the author or the illustrator and that whole creative process.

Books don't just appear randomly on shelves. There's an incredibly long process that's behind them that have so many people behind the scenes working to create what we end up being able to read in, for a picture book, maybe 5 minutes, for a novel, over the course of several hours. So, yeah, I think having author visits and that real authenticity and connections between them is so important to have.

JESS RACKLYEFT: We're very lucky that we get to go visit schools and they get to meet the person, which often-- I still can't believe it-- but the kids are really excited to meet you. And the librarians built it up. They've got a little display, and--

JADE ARNOLD: Little superstars coming in. [laughs]

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah. But you can hear them in the hallway going, 'That's Jess Racklyeft,' and you're like, 'Oh my god, this is just so cute and hilarious,' because I never met an author or an illustrator when I was at school.

And I think I didn't really think this was a possible career path for a long time. So, I think it's just so great that you can go and have an author or illustrator at your school, and they can meet and learn about all these mistakes and stuff-ups that we make along the way. So, hopefully it makes it more accessible for them to go and try and make their own creations.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, of course. Are you allowed to give us a sneak peek into what you're working on next? Is there anything exciting that you have coming up that you're allowed to talk about?

JESS RACKLYEFT: I think so. Well, I haven't been told not to, so let's just--

[laughter]

So, actually, next month, Sophie Laguna has written a story called 'The Last Egg'. And it was, again, quite intimidating, cos it's a very dark fairy tale, almost, but it's about birds and this massive egg appearing, and then what they do with it as they head into winter. So, that was really lovely to work on.

And I tried a quite different technique of using lots of flow pens, which are these pens that you can just spray splatter everywhere. So, that was really fun. It's got lots of delicate little splatters everywhere.

And then I'm also working on a follow-up to 'Country of Colour', which is 'World of Colour'. So, I've done all of the research. I've done all the paintings. And now it's back and forward with all the little mistakes or rewords that the editors are looking at, and then also back to Kristy to do all the design heavy lifting.

I've seen about half of the book, and it just looks so beautiful. It was obviously, again, a quite challenging book to do this research and find the right places to suit each colour. Because I wasn't just thinking about Australian places. I had to find places I've never been before. So, that was really fun.

And then for babies, I've got-- in springtime, I'm starting a new series, which-- because I am a spring baby. And my kids are winter babies. But I was thinking about how, wherever you're born, that makes a huge influence on how you think of yourself. And so, it's a series of baby books based on their seasons. So, the spring one's coming out in spring, obviously.

It's really cute. And it's got ducklings and maybe geese. I don't even know what they are. They're geese-ey things. But again, working with animals, which I really love. So, they can become any family or any child. So, it's been really nice to work on those as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that sounds lovely. We'll keep an eye out on those. I look forward to getting my hands on them. Last question I have for you is, what are you currently reading, or what are you excited to read next?

JESS RACKLYEFT: Well, I just read an adult book, 'Unusually Australian Gospel'. It's a true story about the author's life with his foster brothers and sisters, and the background that they have, and their family situation. It's just a really engaging, amazing book.

And in terms of books for younger people-- yeah, again, I probably shouldn't choose any in particular because I'm always reading friends. And I have a massive stack of picture books. But yesterday, I went to the launch of 'My Mum is a Bird', and it's written by Angie Cui and illustrated by Evie Barrow, who's a lovely friend. And I love her work as well.

And it's such a sweet book about a parent being a bird. And the kid's not that impressed with their parent being a bird, but it turns out beautifully. So, that was lovely. And I read that with my getting older kids, and they really enjoyed it yesterday as well.

JADE ARNOLD: That's so lovely.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Yeah, it's good fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Jess, thank you so much for joining me today, and for giving us such a rich, behind-the-scenes look at your work. Your books are not only beautiful but filled with such meaning and depth and heart. And I know that our listeners will be walking away inspired, especially for our teacher librarians. I'm sure that they'll be delving into their collections to pull out your titles to feature in displays so that students can pick them up and enjoy them as they approach the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. So, thank you again for joining me.

JESS RACKLYEFT: Thank you so much for having me, and your really lovely and insightful questions. And yeah, I hope I didn't double up too much on what Claire said. But yeah, it's really nice to chat books for an hour. I really enjoyed it.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you so much, Jess. Now, for our listeners, we've included a full list of Jess's featured titles, as well as all the books we've mentioned in this episode, in the show notes on the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' page. You can use it to track books down in your school or local library and share them with the young readers in your life. So, thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time on the next episode of 'Between the bookshelves'. Happy reading!

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education, as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit the PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ the Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read, and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 9 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm so excited to be joined today by award-winning author, Claire Saxby. Claire is a celebrated Australian writer of fiction, non-fiction and poetry for young people. Her books are widely read in both primary and secondary schools and are known for their rich language, their lyrical prose and deep engagement with the natural world. With over 26 books to her name, Claire's work includes the acclaimed titles like 'Iceberg', 'Tree' and her latest release, 'Volcano', which were all beautifully illustrated with Jess Racklyeft and features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list. Claire, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

CLARIE SAXBY: I am very well. Thank you for having me here, Jade.

JADE ARNOLD: Such a pleasure to have you. So, Claire, before we begin, I thought it would be nice to play a quick little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can defend your choices if you wish, or you can just stand on your response-- totally up to you. Are you ready?

CLARIE SAXBY: As ready as I can be.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Awesome. OK, picture books or chapter books?

CLARIE SAXBY: Picture books.

JADE ARNOLD: Books based on the past or on the natural environment?

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh, no, that's too hard.

[laughing]

I want both of them.

JADE ARNOLD: That's fair. Researching books or writing books, what process do you enjoy more?

CLARIE SAXBY: I love, love, love, love the research. I have ups and downs. It's a bit like a roller coaster in the writing process. So, for unadulterated joy, absolutely the research.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. And would you rather explore an iceberg or a bubbling volcano?

CLARIE SAXBY: Neither would be particularly comfortable if you're talking about visiting.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Very true.

CLARIE SAXBY: But they are both incredibly rich worlds. And again, that's a line ball.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a hard one to answer, isn't it? Well, thank you so much for that. That was a little bit of fun. Now on to the more serious questions. Now, Claire, you've written across many, many genres. But let's start with your narrative non-fiction books, so books like 'Volcano', 'Tree' and the CBCA Book of the Year, 'Iceberg', along with earlier titles such as 'Emu', 'Dingo', and 'Tasmanian Devil.'

Because the Premier's Reading Challenge aims to help students discover their next great read, we ask our authors to give us a quick pitch to help readers choose their next book. So, here's your first 'between the bookshelves' pitch. Can I get you to imagine, if you will, a curious student standing in the S section of their school library, or their public library or local bookshop. What would you say to convince them to take one of your narrative non-fiction books home?

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh, it's really tricky. Readers will want different things at different times, which, as I do. And let's go with 'Volcano', because to do all of them in one go would be really tricky. But for 'Volcano', I think volcanoes attract lots and lots of young readers. But I hope that if they read Jess and my 'Volcano', they will see a whole world that they may or may not have even heard about and certainly that will be different from their-- well, perhaps enrich their imagination in seeing just what is possible beneath the ocean and just the world that spins beneath the ocean.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I love volcanoes so much. And I you're right on the money there with young readers loving volcanoes. I have a nephew who's about 4 and a half, and he probably wouldn't understand the full depth of the book by himself but absolutely is taken by those illustrations and just looking at volcanoes under the water and very appealing to anyone who loves volcanoes but also loves a little bit of information about them, too. You often describe these titles as narrative non-fiction. How would you define narrative non-fiction in your own world, and what draws you to write in this style?

CLARIE SAXBY: Narrative non-fiction, for me, is that, hopefully, reasonably seamless blend of information and story. I do a lot of research, and I try to distil that down and then carry that in a narrative. So, I, as a child, did most of my non-fiction learning in fiction.

It's a bit of a cunning plan. I drop as much information as I possibly can into every one of the narrative non-fiction stories. And I hope that there will be something that will spark the interest of a reader, no matter what they're interested in. So, that's my plan in doing them.

JADE ARNOLD: Probably the first book of yours that I remember coming across was 'Dingo', and I remember picking that up and thinking-- this is really relatively early on in my journey as being a teacher librarian-- and thinking, 'wow, this is such a unique book.' You don't come across picture books that are factual but also have this really lovely narrative that goes through it. And I remember being able to share this with my students and how interested they were in that process and how much they learned from that. So, yeah, I think it's a fantastic genre, or rather, text type.

And I think when we're at school ourselves, we tend to learn that there are 2 types of books. You've got fiction and non-fiction. But this narrative fiction fits really nicely in between both. And I think when I was a teacher librarian, I found that a lot of students would either be drawn either to fiction or non-fiction. And it's really hard to get those students to cross over to the other type of text type.

And I think this is where narrative non-fiction comes in clutch beautifully, because it satisfies the need for knowledge and learning from students who really love non-fiction books and introduces them to that beautiful narrative structure, but vice versa, as well. For students who really prefer a narrative format and want to have a story being told to them rather than just facts being thrown at them, it's a perfect way for them to explore that. So, beautiful stories, and I really enjoy exploring narrative non-fiction.

One of the hallmarks of your writing is its real poetic quality. You've got this language that's really lyrical but still conveys concepts in ways that young readers can really grasp. How do you strike that balance between your poetic storytelling with this really constrained use of words and really clear explanation that younger readers can understand?

CLARIE SAXBY: I think that comes initially in the research because I research really, really deeply, and I don't begin to write or construct the narrative or even really work out what shape it's going to take until I've done all of that research. And then it sits on my shoulder. And I don't intentionally drop it in, but I just pick from that depth of research. I just pick the elements that I want and then first get the structure and then start playing with the language to-- I don't have many words to play with. Picture books are a very short form. But it is like poetry, and that's intentional.

And I like to keep working until I find the absolute perfect word in the absolutely perfect place. And that can take a really long time. Single words can take days to be the right word. And so, there's bursts of activity, and then there's bursts of frustration where I know that I have not got the right word or the right phrases or the right sequence and I have to go for a walk or eat chocolate. That helps.

But I have learned that time is really important, to give a story time to evolve. It's the distillation process. It's just-- it is. Time is required.

JADE ARNOLD: It sounds like such an intense process, too. I think if you're not familiar at all with the writing process, you can be tricked into thinking that writing a picture book is actually a really simple process. It's just a few words on each page, right? But there's a lot of thought that goes behind each word, and, especially with narrative non-fiction or non-fiction, a tonne of research in that process to break it down into a level where your target audience can actually understand it without assistance. So, yeah, it's a fascinating process.

I imagine you've uncovered a lot of super fascinating facts while you're researching. What's one of the most surprising or memorable facts that you've discovered?

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh, look, there's a list of those. And I actually don't start writing until I have something that I think most adults don't know. And that's my benchmark. And I love when an adult reads my book and looks at it and goes, 'Oh, I didn't know that.' Yes. I have one.

I think for 'Volcano', one of the things I found amazing was right at the seabed where the volcano begins, as it erupts, it stretches the ground next to it. And that opens up the opportunity for seawater to seep through into hyper, hyper hot magma beneath. And then once it's done that and it's become super hot, then it needles back through the crust of the Earth. And that's where we get the hydrothermal vents.

And I, sort of, yes, knew about hydrothermal vents, and yes, knew about volcanoes. But the fact that there's a connection between them, but they're so different. So, one is hyper heated water full of minerals. And then we've got the magma eruption. That was a fascinating fact for me. And, I mean, there are plenty. The notion that those hydrothermal vents are then populated by immature forms of animals that drift past, the randomness of that just blew my brain.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that was a very eye-opening part of it for me, just how these little creatures will just kind of, as they're drifting along, go, 'Oh, this is a nice little spot to live.' And then when that closes back up, they just go on again on their journey.

A lot of your books are really grounded in the natural world. You've got Australian flora and fauna that feature quite heavily in a lot of your books. What is it about nature that keeps drawing you back, and why do you think it's important for young readers to engage with the environment through books like this?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, I think initially, the idea of exploring our Australian animals was really something I enjoyed a great deal because a lot of young readers, young students, are very much aware of some of our international animals. And because of our zoos, they probably get to see some of them more closely than they do their own natural fauna. Each one of the animals that I've looked at more closely, I try very hard to add in other parts of their world, like the climate in which they live, the other animals that co-exist around them, and the landscape that they inhabit.

And it's about also showing young Australians that there are a multitude of landscapes within our one country, and that is special and unique and well worth celebrating. Every time I look, research an animal, I find things or a place or a world. I discover that there's more I want to know. And sometimes that leads to further exploration of a connected world.

I found a quote the other day. I won't remember it completely here, but it's about if-- basically, it's like, look at a piece of nature and discover that it's connected to the whole world. And so, sometimes I go in really close on an animal. And sometimes I want to pull back and go, 'This animal doesn't live by itself, and it doesn't live--' You know, there's all these other worlds around it. And so sometimes I'm wanting to look at a little bit, and sometimes I'm wanting to look at a lot.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely, and just getting them to really understand the interconnected nature of our environment. And I can, from that discussion, and I think also from the topics that your books cover, I can see your books being used very often in the classroom to be used as an introduction to or an exploration of the native environment and used for geography lessons or just shared for a fantastic and beautiful story. But that's really lovely.

A number of your books have been illustrated by Jess Racklyeft. How has that process been working with her, and how have you found that process in comparison to other illustrators?

CLARIE SAXBY: It's been a wonderful process, but it's an evolving one. When Allen and Unwin brought Jess on board to illustrate 'Iceberg', I had no real expectations of how we would work together because we hadn't done it before. It's a very complex world, that the Antarctic. And I knew that Jess didn't need to do all the research that I had. And so, I pretty much picked up all my research discoveries and passed them on to Jess to do with what she wanted, to use or not use as she chose, but just so that she didn't have to spend the length of time researching particular elements, like which penguins nest where and which penguins build nests in this way at this time, and those sorts of things.

And then when we worked on 'Tree', Jess and I went for a day trip into a forest. And we'd organised to meet a ranger. And she took us into her workplace. So, we've got high vis vests and hard hats as we walk through the forest. And we were just peppering her with questions, both of us. And then she took us back to the ranger's-- her office.

And we sat around. And she tried to eat her lunch. And we're going, 'Yeah, but what about this? And what about this? And does this do this?' And she eventually finished her lunch. And we had a 2-hour trip back to Melbourne. And so, then in the car, we're going, 'Oh, we could do this. And if we do it like this-- and what about if we include this?' And 'No, that can't fit. That won't fit this story. We'll put that away for now.'

And that was an amazing process, and also incredibly generous one because the ranger was amazing, absolutely. But also, Jess then stepped back and let me write. Then she got to see the story, but not until it was in a form that was coherent and getting close to being finished.

Then 'Volcano'. 'Volcano' is tricky. Poor Jess. I feel for her because this is a book that's set in the dark. 99% of the time, it's in the dark. And she had to find ways to look at scale of the different elements, like hydrothermal vents, max, 60, 70 metres. A mountain, by definition, has to be much bigger than that. And a volcano that reaches the surface is going to be even bigger than that. So, it was really tricky for her. We have this ongoing exchange digitally where I said, 'Oh, have you seen this one?' And I'll send it to Jess.

And then she'll send me another one. And so, some of those amazing things we found work their way into the book. Some of them don't. Some of them just continue our obsession with the places that we visit in story. It's a great process.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wow. It sounds like that process has really evolved over time. I've spoken to a few other authors who've illustrated picture books, as well. And sometimes that process is not very collaborative at all. But for you to be able to go out and go on a little trip out to the rainforest and actually explore this area that you're both going to bring to life through your book must have been such a great opportunity for you to really understand how each other work and really deepen that connection that you both have as author and illustrator.

CLARIE SAXBY: Yes. That's not to say that during the process of illustrating, there's not a separation. And I think that's a really positive thing. For the narrative non-fiction, I see the world, but I see in its functioning and in its interactions. I don't see what anything looks like specifically, unless it's a real thing.

And so, I don't say to Jess, 'Look, I think you should do on this page, and I think--' That's not my gig. My gig is to make the words as good as possible and to leave the space so that when Jess comes to it, her story can mesh with my story and make a story that is greater than each of the individual parts.

JADE ARNOLD: That's amazing. It's so lovely hearing about that process. Back to our young reader in the library now. If they've read and loved all of your narrative non-fiction picture books, what would you suggest that they try next?

CLARIE SAXBY: That is as varied as the material that speaks to them. I have recently culled my picture book collection so that now there's only about 2,000 or 3,000, rather than many more than that. So, one of the ones that I love for many, many ages is a Sophie Blackall book called 'If You Come to Earth'. And I love that because it is this magical introduction to so many elements of our world that could send a young reader off in many, many different directions. There's something for everybody.

And at its heart is this story about a child wanting to be friends with somebody if they happen to rock up at their place. I think that's an amazing story and is quite ageless. Non-fiction is done so much better, I think, these days. It's not seen as a poor cousin of fiction. It is given every opportunity to shine and to engage and pull in. And it doesn't tell you-- the best of them don't tell you what you must get from it. It offers you opportunities to explore your own curiosity and extend your own curiosity.

A more recent one is 'Searching for Treasure', which is basically walking along the beach. But there's these little facts sort of woven in there. And the page construction is gorgeous-- lots of little bits of information for the curious reader. The reader who just wants to immerse himself in the beach can do that. But the reader who wants to go, 'What is that? Tell me about that.' There are clues.

Because poor parents, come on. Asking them to have the knowledge that we've spent so long researching is really tricky. 'Searching for Treasure' bury enough in there that the parent has got a little bit of a head start. There's one, Libby Gleeson's 'Charlie's Whale' pictures-- it's a lovely story of a child in a family who's quieter and goes to the beach, which is a favourite place of mine.

But again, it's looking at the way readers will follow a pathway. And in this case, Charlie is all bent on whale. He loves whales. And who doesn't know dozens of children that have particular fascinations and want to help them explore that and explore their reading through and their comprehension and their fluency as well as their knowledge going through. So, there are lots of fantastic offerings now. And there's plenty more for older readers, too. I could go on.

JADE ARNOLD: We could make this whole podcast about that, couldn't we? [laughing]

CLARIE SAXBY: We could.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Well, those are fantastic suggestions. Thank you so much for sharing them. Just for our listeners, all the books that we mentioned today, including Claire's books and any books that she recommends, will be all featured in our show notes available on the Arts Unit website. So, make sure you check those out at the end of the podcast.

Let's talk now about your fiction picture books. So, some titles of those include 'Whisper on the Wind', 'Treasure!', 'Christmas at Home', 'Sea Dog', and many, many more. What would your 'between the bookshelves' pitch be for a student considering taking home one or maybe a few of these titles?

CLARIE SAXBY: The Christmas ones I particularly love because they show an individual family doing normal Christmas things with different parts of their family. And that certainly was my history. For one year, we would go to this side of the family, and they lived here. And for another, we would go this way, and we would be with a different group of family. And then sometimes we'd just stay at home, and everybody would come to us.

And so they're the worlds depicted in those stories. And I have to say, that actually wasn't my idea. Those books were produced by Five Mile Press, and that was the editor's suggestion to her, to the illustrator, Janine Dawson. And that was just perfect.

But the thing I love about those stories is they were such fun to write. They're based on Christmas carols. And so, you can sing every one of those stories. And I have been known to do that. So, 'Christmas at Granddad's Farm' is set on a farm, and it's based on 'Jingle Bells'. My personal favourite is 'Christmas at Grandma's Beach House', which is based on the '12 Days of Christmas'. And the illustrations in that are just so much fun.

So, that series is lots of fun and provides opportunities to sing your heart out, which you should do at any opportunity, I think. 'Sea Dog'-- 'Sea Dog' is the story of my dog who just loved to roll in smelly things. Dead fish-- absolutely there for it. And when I sent that off, I didn't expect-- I sent a picture of my dog. No, actually, I don't know that I did. But the dog that came back in Tom Jellett's art was completely different to our dog, who was this really pretty dog that just did all the things that dogs have to do, a bit like people expect children who are beautiful to behave better than children who are still getting their stuff together.

And that was sort of buried in my subtext, if you like, that love isn't necessarily connected to how somebody looks or how they behave, even if they don't behave all the time. It's just a story of love and no judgement. I would say for 'Sea Dog', it's just like, I would be saying, if you love dogs or know anything about dogs, you know that they don't always do fantastic things. This is the story for you.

Let's see. 'Whisper on the Wind' is an imaginative story. Jess has just gone to town in making it full of real and imaginary creatures. And there's so many things to see. And so, I feel like my text sort of sits almost like a song above that. But the reader, if they want to love the sea, if they love mermaids, there are mermaids and mermen to find in the story. So, it's fun. The story doesn't tell them they have to do something. It doesn't-- I try not to write stories that are instruction manuals that are telling somebody how they should respond to something. I want you to get lost in it, and I want you to have fun.

JADE ARNOLD: And they're such fun and, oftentimes, whimsical stories. So, very worth exploring if you haven't tried one of those titles. How does your approach to writing fiction differ from when you're working on non-fiction or narrative non-fiction?

CLARIE SAXBY: Slightly less research.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing]

CLARIE SAXBY: Although there's always elements of truth. No matter how or what I'm writing about, there will always be hard truths. But it is really that I don't have to research. I can just spend my time just on the narrative and not have to make sure that it is accurate, that I've multi-checked my sources, that I might talk to somebody who's got a PhD when I'm doing those. I don't have to do that. I can find those same people and test out my rhythm on them by reading it out loud.

So, it's a more straightforward process. It's not necessarily easier, but it is-- there's more focus in one element of story writing than there is in another.

JADE ARNOLD: Definitely. Sounds like a very different process. And I remember you said right at the start that one of your favourite parts of the process is the research, and that the writing can be one of the more frustrating elements of it. So, yeah, definitely interesting. My gut feeling would have always been that writing a factual-based story would have been harder because you're constrained by the facts. But I guess that also gives you a pretty good framework to work within. So, there's less to choose from in terms of what you're about to say. So, yeah, that's really interesting.

Now, if a young reader enjoyed one of your fiction picture books, what other books by yourself or by other authors would you recommend they explore next in terms of fiction?

CLARIE SAXBY: The way I write non-fiction, it tends to have things that are interesting for a very wide range of readers. For fiction, sometimes those are more targeted to different ages. So, something like-- one of my favourites, and it was also a favourite of my grandchildren-- is 'The Diddle That Dummed', which is just a ridiculous story. But at its heart, it's got music. Music is in all of us. It's just in different ways.

And there are pedants and there are people who embrace every sort of sound. And I love the repetition in that, and I love the silliness of it. But it's also real. It's just lots of fun.

So, another one that I love, it's really short, but it's actually any work by Chris Haughton. But my particular favourite of his is 'Maybe...'. It's a fabulous story of 3 young monkeys, I think, of some description, in a tree who'd been told to stay home and not touch this and not do that. And, of course, they do, with the not unexpected consequences. But the reader knows more than the kids in the story do. And I love that idea that the reader then becomes complicit in-- you can almost see them going, don't do it, don't do it.

And I love the way he writes. It's so short, and it leaves so many spaces. But it says so much. And I could go with a whole range of stories all the way up. I'm just looking here. There are just so many. When you get into picture books for older readers, there are so many people who write such measured stories.

Meg McKinley, I love her stories. So many-- I am just totally stuck and can't think of one of them right now. But there are picture books that are used. A lot of my picture books are used from preschool all the way through to secondary school. And I love to be able to do that. And there are many picture books that fit into that world and thought provoking, the way they're constructed, these stories are constructed, and the richness of those texts.

So, yes, I'm certainly very much on the wagon of 'picture books are for everybody and for a wide range'. And we need to stop telling kids once they're 5, they have to read chapter books, and they can't read picture books anymore.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. I think one of the things that really stands out to me, because I'm a high school teacher librarian. And I've always had a collection of picture books. And obviously, choosing picture books for that age range is a little bit harder, because you obviously want to shy away from the ones that are just for emerging readers. But as you were saying, in that there are so many picture books that are really deep and leave a lot of space for students to use their inference skills and to try and put things together that aren't explicitly mentioned on the page, and also these beautiful illustrations that you can spend hours just poring over, using in a classroom context to look at visual literacy and unpack the meaning and the intent and the impact behind the illustrator's choices versus the words on the page.

And that's, I think, reflected in the fact that so many of your books aren't all just on the K to 2 book list. You do have a number of them on the K to 2 book list, but they go all the way up to the 5 to 6 PRC book list, which is the universal book list that any student can read from. So, you'll have a lot of high school students reading those titles, as well.

And yeah, I was having this conversation with my sister last night with 'Volcano' about this text where, you read through it, and in terms of the length of the text, you think that it's quite a simple text. And I think a Year 3 or Year 4 student could probably read it, but I don't think they would understand the depth of that title, which is why it's on the 5 to 6 book list, because once you hit that age, those students can independently, fully unpack those titles.

And another author and illustrator that we've spoken to is Matt Ottley. And he's very passionate about picture books being for all people and has a lot of picture books also for young adults and adults, as well. So, absolutely agree with you there that picture books aren't just something for younger readers, that everyone should take the time to enjoy the beauty of a well-written picture book, of which you have many.

CLARIE SAXBY: It's also, with all of the technologies that we have available to us today, picture books offer a short form, which can be as deep as you can make it. But it doesn't take long to read. So, in these days where attention spans are shorter, they often are a place to bury rich information without using a lot of words.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely, and just having that time in the classroom setting to unpack the depth of those texts, because you can read through it and unpack it in a single class, then gives those students the skills to go on to longer texts and apply those same skills. And it's such an important stepping stone in a child's reading journey, and even in an adult's reading journey, I think.

Let's talk now about your historical non-fiction books. You have 2 on the PRC book lists-- 'Meet the Anzacs' and 'Meet Weary Dunlop'. They're both well-loved by teachers and students and feature on the 5 to 6 PRC lists. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for both of these titles?

CLARIE SAXBY: Certainly, I'll give that a go. If you are interested in how we gathered our force to join the First World War, 'Meet the Anzacs' looks at some of the reasons that people joined up, some of the ways that was tricky, and some of the ways it was such a big adventure. All of those things are in 'Meet the Anzacs', and it stops before a single gunshot is fired, which is a very deliberate choice, because that is not something that people often see.

So, if you're looking to understand the Anzac legend, where it came from, this book will give you a foundation. But 'Weary Dunlop', Weary Dunlop is a much revered character in Australia. He was a very tall man. He has a very big story. If you'd like to know a little bit about where he came from, what sort of childhood he had, but some of the challenges that he faced that shaped him, then 'Weary Dunlop' is a book that will give you an introduction to a very big story.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, both of those books are fantastic examples to use, especially in a history classroom, but also just in library context of students who just want to learn a little bit more about those particular events in history without having to pull out a very lengthy tome that's very dry for someone who's maybe not a super keen reader. And they're very, very approachable. So, both are fantastic examples and, in my opinion, great to have in any library.

If students enjoyed these titles, what would be a next great read for them, especially for those curious about Australian history?

CLARIE SAXBY: I'm going to go sideways and look back into another non-fiction one, and it is one of mine. It's 'Secrets of the Saltmarsh', which came out just a couple of years ago. And we look at saltmarshes and we call them things like swamps. And they're not seen in a very positive light. But they're an incredibly important part of our world and all of our ecosystems, and they're very important that we maintain them, not just for migratory birds, but for protecting our coastline, for sequestering carbon, for all sorts of things.

And so, I've written a story-- it's not a story, it's a non-fiction text, which uses the first person to identify elements of the saltmarsh and then to how they interact with each other and looks at them through the seasons. And I really think that that's an important book, and it's an important learning. And it's also pretty much everywhere that you live, there'll be some sort of marsh or wetlands, even if it's ephemeral, and even if you only get to see it every decade or even a couple of decades.

When it happens, the processes that make these saltmarshes work. Life just sort of bursts from them. And I think it was a really interesting world to explore. So, that's it's natural history. Can I call it natural history?

JADE ARNOLD: You can do what you want. You're the author.

CLARIE SAXBY: [laughing] History-wise, Jess McGeachin has just brought out one that visits the southern islands and involves women and history. And its title is 'South with the Seabirds'. Another one that I really love is a new one from Alison Lester and Coral Tulloch, and it's a mix of memoir and history and natural-- observations of the world and illustrations and all sorts of things. And it's a fantastic patchwork quilt of a book.

It has so many different elements and is endlessly fascinating. It's got old whales, and it's got explorers. And it's got penguins, and it's got whales-- and it's got all the things in it. And I certainly have really enjoyed that. And I think readers would really enjoy it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, amazing. Is that Alison Lester and Coral Tulloch 'Into the Ice'?

CLARIE SAXBY: Thank you very much. It is a brilliant book.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's turn now to your middle grade novels. 'Haywire' is a book that I often saw in high rotation in my high school libraries that I worked in. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this story that features on the 7 to 9 PRC book list?

CLARIE SAXBY: 'Haywire' is a story about teenage boys who are too old to be children, and they're too young to be adults. And when a war that is not of their making or their understanding erupts, they are swept along in the maelstrom of that war. And they have to decide whether they will be shaped by the circumstances in which they find themselves, or whether they will take control and make their own journeys.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. What inspired you to write about this particular period in Australian history?

CLARIE SAXBY: It was the ship, actually, the Dunera. I had known about the Dunera. But when I learnt a little bit more about it, it was this idea that this massive ship full of learned men-- because they were frequently scholars. They were musicians. They were artisans. They were architects. There was so much knowledge aboard ship.

And when others might not have had the tools to try and make the best of a situation, they, onboard ship, did things make chess sets out of stale bread and organise learning for their younger members so that they wouldn't lose too much as they were sent from England to Australia as internees and were imposed on a country that didn't necessarily really want them and then sent to be in this very specific environment, 12 hours from the sea.

It had to be on sandy soil where their internee camp was built, because they thought these men were going to escape. But these men, they mounted music concerts. They made instruments from the most unlikely of things. And there was just an incredible resilience in the population that were aboard the ship. And they were then sent out to Hay, to outback NSW.

And it was this sort of notion that began to get my interest. And if I could have shoehorned all of that into a picture book, I probably would have. It was my first novel. And so, I had a couple of goes at it doing-- changing points of view. And in the end, I've ended up with 2 first-person narrators, which, probably for the first time writing a novel, isn't a very clever thing to do. Constructing a story where part of it begins on one side of the world and part on the other, also not a very clever thing to do as a first-time novelist. So, it took me a long time to get it right.

And the other thing that was really, really interesting was that when the war ended, about a third of them, I think-- don't quote me on that number-- stayed in Australia and contributed to the culture of our country in a way that was incredibly generous for a population that had been brought here--

JADE ARNOLD: Against their will. It's such a fascinating piece of history, and definitely a great one for any lovers of historical fiction and those types of things of resilience to check out. What books would you recommend to readers who connected with 'Haywire' and are looking for something to scratch that same itch?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, if they're interested in history and they're interested in my books, I did write another novel, which is 'The Wearing of the Green', which is set in 1850. And that's in a world where-- I wanted to set that in Melbourne particularly, because Melbourne was a city that grew at the most phenomenal rate between 1850 and 1860 and allowed a girl a freedom. Because of the rapid growth, some of the social constructs that would have existed beforehand and that would exist afterwards were not happening.

So, there was such a-- trying to find housing, trying to keep supplies up, trying to do all of those things, that a girl could do things that she might not have any opportunity to do any other time in history in those early days of colonial Australia. There are lots and lots of historical novels written about all sorts of different types.

And these days, what constitutes historical? How old does it have to be? It's not actually that old. So, I could write stories of my childhood, and they're probably considered historical.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I've seen books from the 1990s considered as historical fiction, which hurts. It doesn't feel like that long ago. But here we are.

CLARIE SAXBY: No. There are lots of people who write fantastic historical stories. There are some verse ones. Sally Murphy writes verse novels. Verse novel is set in Melbourne, which is also during World War I in Saint Kilda, sort of visits a world that I'm very familiar with-- and a world that I'm very familiar with, but also an element that I had no knowledge of.

And it sits actually quite closely with 'Haywire' in that it's got a lot to do with people being assessed for their cultural background, rather than for their individual, what they can offer a society. And so she does some lovely books in verse about different forms of history. She's also done some historical novels in prose. I could write a whole list, but my desk isn't big enough to have all of these books sitting on here. It would collapse. But there are many contemporary, fantastic fiction books for young people available to read in Australia there.

JADE ARNOLD: Now, the next book I was going to ask you about you've already touched on a little. It's your other middle grade historical fiction novel called 'Wearing of the Green'. I feel like you've already given us a bit of a 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this one. But is there anything else that you'd like to add about that story that you haven't already mentioned?

CLARIE SAXBY: I started to write that story because the world is full of challenges even more than ever at the moment. And we need to look at the way we consider new people to the country. And so when I started to write this, I went back to when my great, great, great grandfather arrived in the country. I wanted to look at the world into which he came. And he was part of an Irish family that did have work when they came out here. He was indentured to a stonemason.

But I wanted to look at the way migrants were treated. And so, for me, it's a story about the things that scare us about difference, and also to just touch a little bit on how little we've learned from successive generations of managing difference and accepting difference. But yes, I did explore the world of my great, great, great, great grandfather, as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's always so interesting to hear about how these historical fiction novels obviously are a glimpse into the past, but they can be used as a lens to analyse and explore the issues that still exist in our own society as a point of comparison and as a point of criticism. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why it's such an enduring and very popular genre, especially in that middle grade realm. It's such a great one to recommend to students. What's a great next step for students who enjoyed this book?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, Jackie French does a lot of Australian history. I think you can probably find something from every period in her work. I love, for slightly younger readers, the Beverly Williams books that use animals as a viewpoint character into particular periods of history. I think they make quite an accessible way to tell what are sometimes quite confronting stories. And by viewing them through that lens, there's a great access for readers who are just not comfortable going into some of the realities, or many of the realities, of war. I think she does a good job of doing that.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's talk about your 'Aussie STEM Stars' title, about Georgia Ward-Fear, who is a reptile biologist and explorer. What would your pitch be for this one to spark a student's interest?

CLARIE SAXBY: Are you brave? Are you terrified of snakes? Or do they fascinate you? Georgia Ward-Fear is an amazing scientist who goes into some very remote places and loves reptiles. She encouraged me to-- next time I came across a reptile handling travelling show-- to actually touch a snake and to hold a snake. Lizards, I have always been fascinated by. But if you want to know what it takes to be a scientist trying to protect Australia from invasive species, then Georgia Ward-Fear has a story for you.

JADE ARNOLD: That's fantastic, and I think very high praise if she's able to convince you to pick up and hold snakes, when, by the sounds of it, that's something that you haven't previously been very keen for. What books would you recommend a student explore next if this one really grabbed their attention?

CLARIE SAXBY: I think if you're interested in scientists and you're interested in people who do extraordinary things, then the 'Aussie STEM Stars' series has something for everybody. There are such a broad range of scientists who have been part of that series, had their stories written. There is many, many, many more people to explore in that world.

JADE ARNOLD: Before we finish up, I want to ask a few final questions, if I can. From your perspective, both as a writer and a reader, what are some of the standout titles that you think are must haves in any school library collection?

CLARIE SAXBY: I don't know about specific titles, but I think there is a real importance in keeping contemporary stories in a library. There are so many fantastic titles that have been around for a long time, and deservedly so, and perhaps belong as part of a collection. But for contemporary readers, I think it's really important that they see their current world reflected in a meaningful and respectful way. And so to have contemporary stories, I think, is really important.

I think it's also really important to have a breadth of story styles so that readers can choose what speaks to them on that day. Just as I go from writing really intensely researched non-fiction to writing quite light-hearted fiction books, I think readers need to have the opportunity to pick up what speaks to them on that day.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think that really just speaks to this idea that collection development isn't something that's a one and done process. It is constant. As a teacher, librarian, or a public library staff member, you're constantly looking for new titles that will engage your readers and really draw them into that world and obviously represents the breadth and depth of the diversity in your student body that are reading titles from your library. So, some great words of wisdom there.

Can you give us a sneak peek into what you might be working on next? Are there any new books on the horizon that you're allowed to tell us about, or is it all very hush-hush at the moment?

CLARIE SAXBY: It's a little bit tricky. Some of them-- I do have a number of books that are currently being illustrated. Having started my first novel as being a dual narrative, same point of view, then 'Wearing of the Green' is a single narrative that was much more sensible, but it's still really tricky. I have written a novel that is in 3 different periods of history, united by their location. I am still waiting to see whether that's speaking to anybody other than me, but--

JADE ARNOLD: It sounds like a challenge.

CLARIE SAXBY: It was tricky, but I loved the challenge. I'm very-- there's this idea that, where I sit now has always been like, this is also one that doesn't sit very well with me. So, when I go into schools, I will talk about what was here? If we were here 12 hours different, if we were here in the middle of the night, how does that change how this room works and your place in it?

And then I go back to, I look up how long this school has been there, and I go back before that. And then if they come with a farming analogy, then I go back to the next level and get them to think about the fact that wherever we walk, we are walking where others have walked. And I think that is a theme that's sort of-- I try and embed in lots of the work that I do.

And I've just started working on a story, which is absolutely without shape right at this point. But it is very research-heavy. So, I'm doing a lot of historical reading.

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds really exciting. Thank you for hinting at those. And we'll have to keep an eye out on those new releases for you. What are you currently reading? Or is there a book that you're especially excited to dive into next?

CLARIE SAXBY: Well, I have just finished Ashleigh Barton's 'How to Sail to Somewhere'. I really enjoyed it. It's a lovely story. Sometimes I will look at a book and go, 'Look, I'm not sure that's for me.' And every now and again, you'll come across a book that keeps being recommended by lots and lots of different people. So, I have just begun one of those books.

It's the assistant librarian, so I have just started that. And in between, there's adult books, some of which are light-hearted to give me a break from deep historical research. And sometimes they'll be more literary if I happen to be on holidays and can spend extended period reading them and getting right into them-- so very diverse reading.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds a lot like what I tend to do. I call myself a chaos reader, or I've always got 4 or 5 different books on the go depending on my mood. Do I want to read something that's nice and easy? Do I want to read something that really challenges me? Do I want to read the book that's closest to me on my bedside table?

CLARIE SAXBY: Are you reading some pages from this one, and some pages from that one?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I'm between 4 separate books.

CLARIE SAXBY: Oh yeah, I've done chaos theory with that one.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Yeah, very much chaos reader. [laughing]

CLARIE SAXBY: Sometimes I can read more than one, but mostly it's sequential rather than all at the same time.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I get a lot of strange looks from my friends when I tell them, 'Oh, yeah, I'm about halfway through this book, and I've just started this one, and I'm 3 chapters away from finishing this one.' They're like, 'What?'

CLARIE SAXBY: I worked in a bookshop for a lot of years. And I had a lot of that sort of reading, as well, as a bookseller.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I think that's the perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Claire, for joining me today and for sharing your stories and insights and your reading recommendations. It's been so lovely talking to you.

CLARIE SAXBY: Thank you, Jade. It's been a pleasure to be here.

JADE ARNOLD: For our listeners, if you are a teacher, librarian, building your next display, or a parent hunting for your next great read for your child or a young bookworm yourself, you can find Claire Saxby's books on the Premier's Reading Challenge book lists across a range of stages.

We've included a full list of her feature titles, and all the other titles mentioned in this episode in the show notes on the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' page to help you track them down in your school or your local library. But from us here at the PRC and from Claire, happy reading, and we'll see you next time on 'Between the bookshelves'.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

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Welcome to episode 8 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by award-winning author Lisa Fuller, a Wuilli Wuilli woman from Eidsvold, Queensland, who's joining us today from Ngunnawal lands in Canberra. Lisa is an academic, writer, editor, literary agent, and the author of 'Big, Big Love', a picture book illustrated by Samantha Campbell, her young adult title 'Ghost Bird' and her latest middle grade release, 'Washpool'.

Lisa-- thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

LISA FULLER: Um-- I have not had enough coffee but thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to meet you.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I hope there is caffeine shortly in your future after this interview. Before we begin, I thought it would be nice to play a little game of this or that. So, basically, I'll give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can either defend your options if you feel, or you can just let your answer stand on its own. Are you ready?

LISA FULLER: Go for it.

JADE ARNOLD: Alright. Fiction or non-fiction?

LISA FULLER: Fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Physical book or ebook?

LISA FULLER: Physical.

JADE ARNOLD: Ebook or audiobook?

LISA FULLER: Non-fiction for audio and fiction for ebook.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, interesting. I like that distinguishing feature there. Series or standalone books?

LISA FULLER: Everything. Just give me it all. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: I love that. I very much am the same. Fantasy or adventure?

LISA FULLER: Oh, can I have both?

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Of course. I mean, you did write a fantasy adventure novel, so I guess that makes sense.

LISA FULLER: Yeah, it kind of is.

JADE ARNOLD: That's why I asked you. I thought that would be tricky for you. [laughs] And last but not least, mystery or comedy?

LISA FULLER: Ooh. Mystery, I have to say. I love a good laugh, but nothing like the tingles when you're reading.

JADE ARNOLD: And gives you-- that's the real page turners, I find, where you really want to know what on earth is going on and you have to really commit. Awesome. Well, thank you for playing that with me. That was a little bit of fun.

Onto the 'Between the bookshelves' stuff. So, Lisa, one of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with books or stories that they're going to fall in love with. And so, keeping that in mind, we like to do this little 'between the bookshelves' pitch, which is essentially an elevator pitch for your book titles.

So, I want you to imagine that there is a student that's standing between the bookshelves in their school or their local library, or maybe in their local bookshop. And they're standing in the F section, in the children's fiction section, and they see your titles there on the shelves. And you have to make the decision to try and convince them, essentially, to take your book home.

So, with that in mind, could you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'Washpool', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

LISA FULLER: Ooh, this is hard. I'm much better at spruiking other people's books. So, 'Washpool' is about sisters Cienna and Bella. Cienna is very confident, popular and doesn't mind a bit of confrontation, whereas Bella is very reserved and quiet, and she's being bullied at school. And Cienna cannot understand how Bella is not willing to fight back in a confrontational way.

The girls both love going to Washpool, a local swimming hole, and they get sucked through a portal into another world full of pink skies and creatures known and unknown, including an amazing dragon who oversees this area of land they have to travel to, to find their way home. And along the way, they get pulled apart and end up with warring factions. They have to work together to find out who stole the lady dragon's egg before they can even think about how they're going to actually get home.

'Washpool' is kind of about accepting each other's differences and understanding that there are different ways of operating in a sometimes judgemental world. It's also just about having a lot of fun travelling to another planet-- not another planet, another world that's built on pure imagination, and the most wild and funky things you can imagine happen.

JADE ARNOLD: It definitely is a fun and rollicking fantasy adventure. With that in mind, what type of readers do you think 'Washpool' would appeal to?

LISA FULLER: Ooh, I hope as many people as possible. No. [laughs] I think middle grade lovers of fantasy. But I've also had really good responses from the adults who've read it and been reading it with their middle graders, because I think there's a lot in there because of who I am and because of how the book came about. It was for my entire family in a lot of ways. So, there's some interesting layering.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing that I noticed was that it's a fantasy book that's not overwhelming for someone who's new to the genre of fantasy. I think you could see a lot of people, a lot of readers who love those classic fantasy adventures like 'Percy Jackson' really enjoying this book.

But also, for readers who think that a giant series of books is way too much, and they want a little bit more variety, or they're just not a series reader. And maybe they've never read a fantasy book before. I think that real adventure side of things really comes through. So, definitely not just pigeonholed into fantasy, I would say.

Now you kind of hinted at that when we were discussing how this book came about just then, but I believe this book came from a real personal connection with your nieces in particular. Can you tell us a little bit more about the origin story of writing 'Washpool'?

LISA FULLER: Yeah. So, it would have been about 6 or 8 years ago now. My 2 eldest nieces with my sister, they were starting their literacy journey, and I was missing everyone like crazy. And so, I just wrote them the first chapter of what I was calling their book. And they're the main characters.

And their names are Cienna and Bella. And to get the next chapter of their book, they had to write me back with a letter and drawings. And so, it became this huge letter writing exchange. And it also became a family thing, because my sister would read the chapter out to everyone at the breakfast table before school.

And I'd get immediate feedback from her, where she's like, 'Oh, you know, that was really funny. They laughed their guts out.' 'Don't do that one again, though, sis. That was gammon.' You know-- [laughs] And then the letters-- I've still got them in a display folder in my bookshelf, where the girls were kind of guessing what was going to happen.

And then my goal was to not give them what they wanted, to surprise them as much as I could. And it became this epic family exchange and so much fun. And getting edited and changing it, there were parts of it that were heartbreaking, because I had to remove all the family in-jokes and all the family history, the things that I was trying to-- I'm always trying to-- I think it's the Aboriginal culture.

You know, it's always fun and entertaining, but there's always something going on underneath if you're paying attention. So, there's little hints of things that I wanted to say to the girls about our history, and some of-- a lot of that had to come out.

Then I had to-- instead of them being my nieces Cienna and Bella, I had to turn them into characters. And that was really hard because obviously, I love my nieces, and this can't be them, because it has to be a character.

JADE ARNOLD: And it needs to take a life on its own.

LISA FULLER: It really does.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh my gosh, what a sweet and absolutely wholesome way to write a book. I have spoken to so many authors about how ideas came about for their books, and I don't think I've ever encountered anything like this. And what a great litmus test also for your book, having your nieces giving you on-the-spot feedback, and your sister as well.

Oh, that would have been so special. And I can't imagine what it would be like to be the real Cienna and Bella who know that this book now exists because of those letters between you and them. That's so special. I hope they were amongst your first readers when it was actually released.

LISA FULLER: Bella was insisting she was going out and buying her copy from a bookshop, even though I'm like, 'Babe, you get a free copy,--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I can get you one.

LISA FULLER: --there's no question.'

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] Oh, that's so lovely though.

LISA FULLER: Yeah, it is. But they're 16 and 18, so, there was a point where they lost interest, which broke my heart. But then I got their permission to finish the whole book and turn them into characters and submit it for publication. So, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: And I hope one day, they'll have their own kids or their own nieces and nephews to read it to themselves. And they can say that 'this is me, this is written by my auntie'. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: Well, and then it sort of became another thing where my younger niblings from different family got fully involved. And there-- the whole thing is in the author's notes. This thing was years of family engagement, and love, and laughter, and a little bit of heartbreak and-- yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. It's so beautiful and, ah gosh, so special. And I think looking back on it, because I obviously didn't know that at the time that I was reading it, it just adds so much meaning into that story. And just-- it gave me the warm and fuzzies, and I'm not even involved in it in any way, shape or form.

So, yeah. It's so lovely and so interesting. The world that the sisters slip into is this strange parallel to our own world. You've got purple grass, pink sky, orange water and all these strange creatures. Some of them we may have heard of. Some of them are completely new to us. Was there a particular inspiration behind this world that they slip into?

LISA FULLER: The biggest inspiration was the 2 factions at the heart of the story: the Merpeople and the Fire Birds. At the time when I was writing it originally, Bella was absolutely obsessed with mermaids, and Cienna had a real thing for phoenixes.

Now, mermaids generally are-- even though there are some cultures, like Aboriginal cultures, who have mermaids, and they believe in mermaids, there is a fictionalised version that I can use without appropriating anyone's stories. But I wasn't comfortable appropriating-- well, it would have felt like appropriating to me using phoenixes.

So, I used that as inspiration for the Fire Birds. And there's things in there. Like, there's the dragons. I mean, dragons are so cool. And I was very aware of not appropriating other people's-- doing my best to not appropriate other people's cultural beings and creatures.

And the vast majority of it, I realised afterwards, is actually very much based in our worldview that everything is alive. The trees, the rocks, the water, the earth, the sky. It's all alive and has spirit.

And so, it's-- I think that's reflected in it. But there's also the fact that I'm a huge fantasy lover. So, there are centaurs as well, and fun things like that.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, it's real meshing of some of those real traditional fantasy elements. And, as you were saying, that real kind of connection to Country where, like when the girls are putting their hand through the grass, it reacts and undulates as if it's aware of their presence and all these other things.

It's so lovely. I love that so much. There's also this real contrast between the 2 sisters, Bella, who's this really shy, introverted character, as you mentioned, and Cienna, who's headstrong and is constantly worried about her sister not standing up for herself.

Did you intentionally set out to explore that sibling dynamic, or did it kind of just evolve naturally as you wrote?

LISA FULLER: Part of it is based in Cienna and Bella. They're very different people. They actually reflect me and their mother. We're very-- Mum has always called us chalk and cheese, and Cienna and Bella are very like chalk and cheese as well.

So, it's based on that element. But it's me playing around to have a bit more tension and a bit more-- especially that opening section. That didn't exist, where the girls are at school, until I started to get edited with black&write! and I had to start thinking about how to introduce these themes sooner so that the reader can go on the journey, with the girls.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I don't want to give too much away, but I love this point of realisation at the end of the book that Cienna comes to, that there's more than one way to solve a problem. And her way obviously works for her. But Bella does have her own ways of dealing with things, and maybe she needed a little bit of, I guess, belief in herself that it could work out.

But the way that she solves her problems at the end, without giving too many spoilers away, is just that real lovely affirmation that 2 people can be completely different, chalk and cheese, as you say. But how they'll approach life and how they'll approach their problems can be really unique but can still have a great resolution at the end. And I think that was a really lovely message to include for your readers.

LISA FULLER: Well, I hope it's a message the girls got, too.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughing] I hope so. There's also a lot of fantastical elements in the book. We're talking about Fire Birds and Merpeople and Lady Dragon, who's the keeper of the land. But as you've hinted at, Bella and Cienna have this constant tie to their own Country as they're guided by advice through their mother and their grandmother.

Throughout their adventure, they're constantly referring back to wisdom that's been shared with them to survive, and make it out, and figure out what to do next. How did you balance creating this rich, fantastical world while still keeping that strong connection to Country and to culture at the heart of the story?

LISA FULLER: So, for me, I actually don't see it as a connection to Country. I had to get them off Country as fast as possible, which is why they had to go through a portal to another world. Because if I have them on Country, then there's all sorts of permissions and protocols.

And there's all sorts of cultural mores and respect I need to be paying, that-- it was very much in 'Ghost Bird'. And I was actually editing 'Ghost Bird' while I was finishing writing this. This was my fun escape from the seriousness of getting approval from my aunties, and talking to my mum, and checking, checking, checking.

So, this, to me, isn't about connection to Country. It's actually about just having a lot of fun with my nieces. But also, I can definitely see, reading it back and seeing that because of who I am, my cultural view, my world view is-- and the world view of the girls, which is very much about speaking to my nieces, and their brothers and sisters, and their cousins, that it's going to bleed through. It is what it is.

I think I liked what my partner said the most. He said, 'It's a fantasy with Black flavour.' I'm like, 'Yeah, let's take that.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. That's such a good way of describing it. I think that's a really good thing for a lot of our listeners to know, is that there's often so much work that has to go into telling a story that is culturally safe and respectful, and that will often influence, I would assume, a writer's decision to do certain things. And that's something that I wasn't aware of until just now.

So, thank you so much for sharing that with me. That's so interesting to know.

Before we move on to your next book, let's come back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say that young reader who was standing between the bookshelves has now devoured 'Washpool', and they absolutely adored it. And they want to find their next book that will scratch the same itch, or maybe a similar itch. What books would you recommend they try next?

LISA FULLER: Oh. So, I had a whole list written down for you, and I've left the list in my office. But the most recent one I can think of is probably 'Brightest Wild' by Tania Crampton-Larking. There's all sorts out there.

Actually, what I generally do is if I'm looking for new books, I go to the Readings website and I literally just google First Nations, middle grade. First Nations, young adult. And the list-- I can't keep up anymore.

Once upon a time, I could buy every single Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander writer and I could read their books, and I no longer can, which is an amazing, amazing problem to be having. I'm so excited for it. But I've got things like 'Nerra' and the 'Wylah' series, and it's all sitting on my to-be-read pile. But I've got a 2-year-old. And I've just finished my PhD. And I've started a new job. So, I'm excited to read, but--

JADE ARNOLD: Of course, yeah. You've got a bit on your plate. But no, I think 'Nerra: Deep Time Traveller' and 'Wylah' are both fantastic recommendations.

Both of those are on the PRC book list. And all the books that Lisa mentions in this and that I mention also will be available in the show notes as well to download, and we'll indicate which of those books are on the PRC book list for our listeners so, you don't have to go googling yourself.

But yeah, there's been that definite shift in publishing where-- you're right. I remember probably 7, 8 years ago trying to find books by Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander authors was such a mission. And really, you could only find it from, say, Magabala Books, or very few other titles.

And it's so lovely to see. There's definitely still so far, much further the publishing industry needs to come to ensure that there is better representation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander authors in our children and young adults, and even adult fiction. But it's good to see that there is progress being made in that area. And so yeah, it's such a good problem to be like, 'Oh, how do I keep track of all the new authors in this area?' [laughs]

Thank you so much for those recommendations, Lisa. Those all sound great. I'd like to talk now about your young adult title, 'Ghost Bird', which features on the 9Plus book list. Let's assume that the reader that's standing between the bookshelves now is a teenager, and they're looking for their next read. They've come across your book 'Ghost Bird' between the shelves. How would you help them make the decision to take that book home?

LISA FULLER: So, twin sisters Tace and Laney are in their last year of high school. Tace is desperate to finish school and get out of their small town in country Queensland and Laney is fighting against the education system and wants to stay and fight for her mob and community and culture.

And then Laney is also doing some not so nice, naughty things, let's just say, some things she shouldn't be doing. And she sneaks out one night, and she doesn't come home. And Tace starts having these really awful dreams about what's happening to her sister.

And the police aren't interested. She's just another Aboriginal girl gone missing. Nobody cares. This is all set in the '90s as well, '90s rural Queensland. And Tace has to break all kinds of social community, family taboos, our cultural taboos, to find out what happens to her sister. It's about figuring out who you are, but also respecting and understanding what's come before, but when you need to push to find out who you are.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I love that description. What type of reader do you think would enjoy 'Ghost Bird' or what type of reader did you write it for?

LISA FULLER: Oh, both are really hard questions. I think a lot of the times I struggle to classify my work. Some people have called it mystery, thriller. Some people call it horror. Other people say it's not scary at all.

I think if you like the tingles, if you get a bit spooked at night, I think you'll enjoy this. I think if you like the scary things that you may not necessarily see, I think it'll mess with you a bit. It's good fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. I think you're definitely on the money there with readers who just want to be a little bit spooked. And when I was reading this, I remember it being a windy night and, like, doors opening and closing on their own, and freaking out. And being like, 'Oh, it's just a book. It's just a book. It's just a book!' [laughing]

LISA FULLER: Right. I can't listen to the audiobook at night. It terrifies me.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I can see how that would happen. So, yeah, definitely. If you've got a reader out there who wants something to just make them a little bit spooked, or to question every other sound they hear, great recommendation for it.

Now, you were kind of touching on this a bit, then, where people really struggle to classify 'Ghost Bird' in terms of what genre it fits in, and I would say it's one of those books that doesn't really neatly fit into a genre.

And there's been a lot of people who mistakenly assume, or assign it to speculative fiction, or magical realism, or kind of this fantasy-adjacent genre. But it's actually, as you were saying earlier, grounded in your own cultural and spiritual beliefs. So, could you tell us a bit more about the inspiration for writing a story infused with your own beliefs, and what that process was like for you?

LISA FULLER: When I started writing it, this was all part of my master's in creative writing, and I had this idea in my head that I was not going to include any of our spiritual beliefs because I have been so actively mocked by other people just generally when I express what my spiritual beliefs are.

And so, I was just like, 'I'm not gonna--' there's a history in this country of Aboriginal spiritual beliefs being stolen and used in inappropriate ways without understanding the protocols and permissions process, and how many of us work as communities. And so, I was very scared about opening any doors that would allow people to steal our beliefs, like has already happened with the Bunyip, for example. So, I just was like, 'Nope, It's not going to have any of our spiritual beliefs.'

The problem with that is because or how we view the world, you can't actually write us without any kind of-- because you're talking about connections to Country, the girls are on Country. They're out bush. They're doing these things. They're talking about community. They're with community. So, I just had to wake up and realise, you can't have that. You can't have one without the other.

And then I spent 6 weeks with 6 of my aunties going through what I could and couldn't write. And even the writing process, I had family checking it. The editing process, I had family checking it. So, that need to put the community first to make sure that I'm doing things that empower my mob and don't endanger them, or cause damage in any way, was really forefront of my head.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that's-- again, that just adds that extra layer of complexity into writing a novel. And would that be why, or part of the reason why this horror that exists in the background of this story kind of remains nameless throughout?

LISA FULLER: It is, because I had permission from my aunties to name it. But one, I fictionalised things a little bit, so it's no longer exactly the thing that I based it on. Two, people in my community will read that, and they will understand what I fictionalised and what I haven't.

But mainstream Australia and actually other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mobs won't necessarily know that. So, that was kind of me protecting that, because I'm very aware, because of who I am, whatever I write, people are just going to assume that's what I really believe. So, I need to walk a very careful line there. But also, I just really like it when things don't get seen. I think it's the most creepiest thing in the world.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think it definitely really adds to that tension, especially towards the end of the novel. You know that they're definitely in danger, but you don't know the parameters of how they can be safe and what's going to happen next.

And I remember that last-- the final scene. Argh, I can't say it, because I don't want to give away the ending for anyone who hasn't read it. But the tension there, I'm just like, 'Oh, I don't know what's going to happen here.' And having that namelessness really just adds to the tension as a reader.

So, I think that worked out really well. And also, so lovely that you were able to have that process with your family and to make sure that they would be supportive of that, whilst also protecting that cultural knowledge.

Something that I found really interesting in 'Ghost Bird' was how differently the mirror twins Stacey and Laney travel through life. You were touching on this earlier where Laney is this really disillusioned with formal schooling. She's pretty cheeky, undertaking some of that teenage risk-taking behaviour. And then you've got Stacey, who's your A-grade student who is really focused on her studies and wants to use that as a springboard to leave her country town, is sceptical of her family's cultural beliefs, but also would really not put herself in a situation where she'd be questioning her parents or authority figures generally.

And this use of Laney and Stacey as these polar opposites, was that a narrative choice, or did you draw inspiration from people in your own life when creating them?

LISA FULLER: I thought I was being really original when I wrote it. And then my family read it. And they went, 'Sorry, that's your mother, that's your sister, and that's you.' And I went, 'No, it's not.'

And then I looked at it and went, 'Ah-- oh, it kind of is.' It's based on us. It's based on our interactions. Like I said, we're chalk and cheese. Someone said to me once, 'You seem to like sisters who are really different.' I'm like, 'I think I'm just writing my family by accident.'

Well, with 'Washpool', it was deliberate. But then I based it on that, and then I took it and ran with it. And some of it is, I think, who I wish I could have been, because Tace is so sure, and she is really confident in herself. And also, I have a massive crush on Sam. ah-- [laughs] But my sister fully claims Laney is her.

And when I was writing it, she would call me up and be like, 'Where's the next chapter of my book? I'm like, 'It's not your story.'

[Jade laughing]

Yeah. So, it's-- and now I'm working on the sequel. And so, I came to this realisation a few months ago when I was at Varuna that I'm going to have to kill one of the characters. And I'm-- I'm [laughs] really heartbroken.

JADE ARNOLD: Ooh, which family member is it going to be? [laughs]

LISA FULLER: Well, this is the thing. So, I put it on my Instagram because I was hoping to get inspiration from people. And people were just like, 'No, you're not allowed to.' And my sister calls me up out of nowhere, and she starts yelling at me. She's like, 'You are not allowed to kill me.' And I said, Well, don't make me angry in the meantime, and you'll survive.'

JADE ARNOLD: It can be a threat now. [laughs]

LISA FULLER: Yeah.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that is perfect sibling tension there. I'm sure that'll hopefully be a good source of inspiration for you as you're writing the sequel.

So, obviously, we've got Laney's disappearance and Stacey's search for her that drives the plot in 'Ghost Bird'. But underneath that surface-level narrative is this deep-rooted family tension, a close-knit mob rallying together to try and find a missing family member, and also the realities of both internalised and structural racism in their small town. How much of this was influenced by your own experiences growing up in Eidsvold, and what aspects of small-town life did you think were most important for you to capture in your story?

LISA FULLER: It's very much my experience. So, it's 1999, Eidsvold, South East Queensland. I've had Aboriginal people and non-Aboriginal people tell me that it was very much their life if they grew up in rural Queensland. So, it was really cool to feel that connection with people and to know that it struck a chord with some people.

But yeah, it was partly me writing the book to myself and 16-year-old me, who would have absolutely loved to have seen anything in media that was a positive representation of us, but also, that was a reflection of what we were really dealing with. And also, me wanting to write it for my niblings to kind of say-- because a lot of us have had to move away from community because of jobs, and education and life.

And in some ways, 'Washpool' too is me kind of telling them about our history, but also our Country. And don't forget, this is how it was, and this is where you come from.

And one of the best experiences I had was my first cousin. I met for the first time her 2 eldest, who are teenagers, 19 and 17, I think at the time, and they were really excited. They loved reading it.

They've grown up around Brisbane, around that area, and it actually sparked big, long conversations with their grandmother about what it was like to live in Eidsvold. And that, to me, is gold. Absolutely perfect that not only could they have fun reading it, but then it turned into a family discussion around our history and our community and our culture.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And just, I guess, the contrast, I guess, if they've grown up in Brisbane versus growing up in a small country town and just seeing the differences between their experiences versus their parents' experiences.

And I'm sure that there are so many readers out there, both those who come from country towns and those who live in suburbia or in cities that get to see either themselves and their own lives kind of mirrored, or a glimpse into living in a more rural community where your library is a single shelf in-- where there's next to nothing other than what that small community has decided to collect to find information. So, yeah, really interesting representation coming from someone who's always lived in suburbia.

One of the things that stood out to me in 'Ghost Bird' was your use of Aboriginal English, particularly in the dialogue between characters. What role does language play in shaping the authenticity of your characters, and why was it important for you to include it in your story?

LISA FULLER: There were a couple of things going on. First was probably the fact that you just don't see-- well, I didn't as a kid. Like I said, though, this is now changing, thank god. I just never saw us in that way. And I wanted it to be as authentic and real as possible.

But also, I'd actually been really lucky to edit a book called 'Aboriginal Ways of Using English' by a forensic linguist, Diana Eades, who's an amazing person. And reading that book actually made me realise all these things that had happened when I'd moved away from community, when I'd moved to Canberra, and I'd started in the public service where I felt like my words were broken because I got made fun of for how I spoke, for my accent.

So, the way I speak now, I developed over years of dealing with the trauma of people not understanding me, and making fun of me, and sometimes not meaning to be bullying. But it really was-- I felt like I couldn't communicate. And so, this is me-- this is how I've learnt to speak, to be taken seriously as an educated Black woman.

But when I'm home with mob, my accent is very different. I say to my students all the time, if-- you'll hear my accent shift when I start talking story, community, family. I'm not in control of that. So, for a long time, my words were broken in both places.

And I just wanted-- after reading Diana's book and realising how much we've been told our whole lives, and our family's been told, my mother, my grandparents, my great grandparents, that our English is broken and wrong. And what Diana's book constantly says is, these are dialects, and they express culture.

And slowly but surely, I've started to realise it's a form of resistance in and of itself. And it's beautiful, and it's lyrical, and I love it. And I just wanted to fully embrace that and just go for it and make sure, because it changes.

And it was really hard to render it properly on the page. But listening to Tuuli Narkle do the reading on audiobook, oh, I just-- she did such an amazing job. And it just made it all worth it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Oh, that's so amazing. You're right, though. I think I can probably recall maybe 2 or 3 other books off the top of my head that have used Aboriginal English. And yeah, it is its own dialect. It's not just bad-grammar English. It is a genuine dialect of English.

And it is, I guess, one of those things that having more exposure to Aboriginal English in fiction just gives students this wonderful opportunity, if they speak Aboriginal English themselves, to feel more confident in theirself, to feel that someone in the world recognises that, yes, what you're saying is actually a proper English dialect.

Your words aren't broken, as you were saying. And that's so important, I think, for students to have that representation. And also, for students who aren't aware of Aboriginal English as a certain dialect, it's a great intro to it, because the thing that I notice is that it really carries a lot of the characterisation in how your characters speak. It brings through so much of their personality that adds on a lot more depth than just the narration does. It's beautiful to see that.

LISA FULLER: I think what really helped is when I used to edit, I was working at Aboriginal Studies Press and we were doing all sorts of non-fiction. And the first time I heard-- I saw-- it was a community history, I believe, where it was actual Elders' voices rendered on the page.

And it was almost like I could hear my own Elders' voices in the way that it flowed, and the lyricism, and the beauty of it. And that was just like, 'Damn. That's it. That is what it should be.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful, and so important to see as well. Let's come back now to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say our teen reader has devoured 'Ghost Bird' and is looking for their next great read. What would you recommend they try next?

LISA FULLER: Probably Graham Akhurst's 'Borderlands' is a good one. Oh, but there's so many amazing YA writers out there. Jared Thomas, Gary Lonesborough. Oh, anything by Ambelin Kwaymullina. I haven't read her latest one yet. It's on my to-be-read pile.

JADE ARNOLD: 'Liar's Test', fantastic. Can recommend. You're going to have a good time when you get to that one.

LISA FULLER: Awesome. There's the one that she wrote with her brother Ezekiel, 'Catching Teller Crow', that constantly gets compared with 'Ghost Bird'. But if you're after Indigenous horror, too, there's a podcast that talks about some of it. I think it's called 'Red Nation'.

And there's things like 'Bad Cree'. I can't remember the author's name. All these things, they're on my to-be-read pile. But I'm also a little terrified to read them, [laughing] if I'm honest.

JADE ARNOLD: I guess if they're going for that kind of thriller, horror, mystery vibe, yeah, definitely. One of the ones that comes to my mind for that real kind of contemporary mystery kind of vibe is 'My Father's Shadow' by Jannali Jones, set in the Blue Mountains.

And yeah, I really-- that one, I read years ago. And it just sticks in the back of my mind. It's like, 'Oh, that's a really good mystery novel. I'm going to recommend that one.' So, I wanted to shout out to that one. [laughs]

LISA FULLER: Oh yes, thank you. Because yeah, that's great too. And it was all coming out around the same time.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. So, Lisa, you've also won a number of awards during your career, including the David Unaipon Award and the black&write! Fellowship. How has winning these awards, as well as your career as a literary agent and editor, shaped you as a writer?

LISA FULLER: The awards were [laughs] very unexpected. And I was basically just using the deadlines to finish stuff and submitting, hoping to get feedback. That was all I was after. So, that was really shocking when I won them.

It was a huge confidence boost, because I am my own worst enemy. And so, I kind of had this moment of, like, 'Oh, I might be able to actually write.' It was-- actually, it was quite funny. When I made my mum read the finished draft of 'Ghost Bird', and she doesn't like what I write, because she's not into that.

She likes crime, she likes fantasy. That's her thing. And I said to her, 'I don't need you to like it. I just need you to tell me if I've done us right and to just check it.' And she ended up starting it, read it until 3 am.

Next morning, she looked at me and went, 'You know, you can actually write.' [laughs] Yeah. So, the awards were a huge confidence boost. The money gave me some space to actually write, which was so valuable. The ability to go to Varuna and just sit and write was, ugh, heaven.

And then, with the editor brain and the literary brain, sometimes I feel like I remove heads, and I put the different ones back on. Because sometimes-- author Lisa is very unconfident. Editor Lisa and literary agent Lisa loves talking about other people's books, and nerding out, and getting excited for other authors. But sometimes I have to leave that off, because the author head would never write if I was constantly thinking about what other people think. Does that make sense?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it really does. I think I've spoken to a couple of other authors, and one we interviewed recently was Will Kostakis. And he was talking about that same kind of process of winning an award doesn't necessarily change your life, but it does give you that confidence because you spend so much time as a writer inside your own head.

And writing is a very solitary activity. It's not like you're getting constant feedback as you're writing. And yeah, I guess it would be very easy to become overly self-critical, and that being a major block to actually getting anything down on the page. Especially when you've got that background as an editor and a literary agent where you're familiar with so many other people's work, and I guess probably comparing yourself as you go to all these other books that you've read that are equally as fantastic.

And yeah, I feel like self-doubt would definitely get in the way a lot there. So, it's lovely that those awards are there to help support writers. Give them A, that confidence boost, but B, give them the funds to be able to actually spend time writing, because it is such an intensive process.

Now, I think you've kind of hinted at this already, but can readers look forward to any new middle grade or young adult stories from you in the future? Or are there any other projects that you're working on that you could maybe share with us?

LISA FULLER: So, at the moment, I am writing the spiritual sequel to 'Ghost Bird'. You don't necessarily have had to have read 'Ghost Bird' is the point. But yeah, I am neck-deep back in the world of Laney and Tace and trying to figure out who I'm going to kill. If anyone wants to give me any hints, please go onto my Instagram and/or email me.

I am also getting my PhD novel edited. And it's basically a new adult thriller, leaning a little bit more into horror. And it's a young Aboriginal girl away from community for the first time. Second year of university feels like her words is broken. Am I hitting any familiar themes?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: But she's feeling very isolated and alone. And she gets invited to go to this writing group. But there's something very sinister going on.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I'm going to have to call dibs on those when they come in the office to review. So, I get to read them first. But I hope everyone else out there is looking forward to reading those too. I'm sure they will be fantastic.

Given that you've got a lot of experience as a literary agent, I imagine that you've got a lot of insights into the Australian publishing industry. Do you have any advice for teacher librarians in NSW, who are amongst the key listeners of this podcast, what type of books should they be keeping an eye out for when they're developing their library's collection?

LISA FULLER: Oh, I wouldn't say my experience is extensive. I'm a year in. [laughing] But--

JADE ARNOLD: It's more than me. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: I've been around publishing for, yeah, over a decade. I would 100% keep an eye out for #OwnVoices. This is why I love-- I love, love #LoveOzYA and Oz middle grade, because people are just embracing diversity and difference.

But I do think it's still really important to be including books that anyone and everyone can find themselves in. And some of those books, especially with dealing with minorities of any difference, need to be written still, I think, by authors who are dealing with those issues, be they of a different culture, of LGBTQIA+, or neurodivergent.

I still think we need those main characters. We need those own voices, because that's where our teens will find themselves and be able to find those real connections, which are so important. But still, everybody deserves to see themselves in books. And I think diversity is the key thing. But I'm really excited.

Jasmin McGaughey's new book, 'Moonlight and Dust', is coming out. So, it's Torres Strait Islander, and we have so few Torres Strait Islander voices. Keep an eye out for her.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. I follow her on TikTok. And I started following her because she would talk about books, and she'd talk specifically about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander books. And then, when she finally announced that she was writing her own story, I was like, 'Ahh!'

And the cover is absolutely stunning. But it's this, like, purply toned, very fantasy-esque looking. I'm not going to do it justice. It's gorgeous. Google the cover. The name will be in the show notes. Definitely go check that out. I'm so excited for that one.

LISA FULLER: Yeah. Well, my mum-- because I've got an early copy. I'm so excited.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I'm jealous. [laughing]

LISA FULLER: I'm going to start reading it as soon as I can this weekend. And yeah, my mum-- because we know Jas. Jas was my editor at black&write! Mum looked at the cover and went, 'She's as beautiful as Jas.'

JADE ARNOLD: Aw.

LISA FULLER: Isn't that lovely?

JADE ARNOLD: That's so lovely. Yeah, so very much #OwnVoices and authenticity. Was there anything else that you think that teacher librarians should look out for?

LISA FULLER: I'll be honest, some of the best conversations I've had have been with teacher librarians. So, I think they've got it sorted. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: I mean, look. As a teacher librarian myself, I'd like to say, maybe. Yeah, sure we do. [laughs] But it's so lovely to hear that you have that confidence with teacher librarians.

Being able to work with students directly and see what it is that they're reading and they're loving, and then being able to source titles that, as you were talking about, really showcase authenticity in the diversity of the collection so that students can both see themselves represented and get glimpses into other people's lives and develop super important empathy is so important. And maybe following some great authors like yourself on social media to come across what other titles are coming out.

LISA FULLER: Or have feedback for me about who I need to kill in my books.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. Yes. That too. [laughing] Are there any particular books that have inspired or shaped you as a reader or a writer, and are there any specific books that you would recommend to aspiring young writers?

LISA FULLER: I love reading about other writers and their process. So, I think one of the most influential for me was Stephen King's 'On Writing'. But also, I've got a lot of Steven Pressfield stuff on audiobook.

But then there's people like Elizabeth Gilbert's 'Big Magic'. There's a podcast that I listen to when I'm struggling, 'Big Lessons', 'Magic Lessons', something like that. Just devour as much of it as you can.

But more importantly, read what you want to write and just go crazy. Read, read, read, read. This is how you learn. But also write.

Because writing is a trade. You got to get dirty. You got to get in there, and it's going to suck. And it still sucks even when you think you've got it figured it out.

But that's the point. You're learning, and you're growing, and you're working on it. And once you get there, it'll be-- you won't even realise until other people tell you or you win a couple of awards. [laughs]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's such good advice. I think definitely reading as much as you possibly can, especially in the areas that you like to write so that you can build on those foundational rules that you see and then break them with intention to create some really good stories.

Now, Lisa, I know that you're based in Canberra, but for the NSW-based schools near the ACT, is there ever any chance of a school visit from you?

LISA FULLER: Yeah, sure, you know, I work at--

JADE ARNOLD: When you've finished your 20 million PhD assignments and edited your book? [laughing]

LISA FULLER: The PhD is done. It's all done.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Congratulations.

LISA FULLER: Thank you. I'm looking at getting the book and the exegesis edited now to hopefully get it published. Yeah.

I work with Booked Out. I'm more than happy for people to email me. My email is on my website. Always keen to come have a yarn.

'Ghost Bird' came out in October 2019, and we all know what happened in March the next year. And so, all of my events just went away. But for about 2, 3 years, the only interaction I had with classes was online. So, I've only really been doing physical school visits for the last kind of year. It's been a real strange but really fun experience.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. I know that there was definitely a lot of-- authors have very much struggled with that, 2019 onward release period, and being able to get into schools to meet the readers who would be devouring those ideally. So, I'm glad that that's starting to pick up for you. And hopefully there'll be many schools reaching out to have you come talk about either 'Ghost Bird' or Washpool'.

LISA FULLER: Please do.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. [laughs] And finally, no podcast interviewing authors would be complete without asking what is it that you're currently reading at the moment, or what are you looking forward to reading next?

LISA FULLER: Well, I've already told you. I cannot wait to get my hands on Jas's book. But I think that comes out in July. So, sorry, guys.

But because of my life right now, it's a bit crazy. I'm teaching literary studies. So, I've just finished rereading 'The Magic Fish' by Trung Le Nguyen, 'The Gaps' by Leanne Hall. We're doing so many cool books.

Will's latest book, 'We Could Be Something', and Alison Evans's 'Euphoria Kids'. Like, so many cool, amazing. And 'The Magic Fish' isn't Australian, but the rest of them are.

But at the moment, I'm reading Alexandra Almond's book 'Thoroughly Disenchanted'. It's a cosy fantasy. But yeah, I have a 2-year-old. So, I'm no longer able to devour books the way I once did.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a lot of picture books in your life, I imagine.

LISA FULLER: Oh, there's so many. My goal is this child will be a book addict. And it looks like it's going to work that way. Hopefully, fingers crossed.

JADE ARNOLD: I feel like growing up in your house, they've got a pretty good chance of that.

[laughter]

Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Lisa. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your books and about your writing process.

And I have no doubt there'll be teacher librarians all across NSW either racing out to go and purchase your titles or pull them off the shelves and put them on display and advertise them to their students. And hopefully, many, many more students diving into your books as they work to complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge.

LISA FULLER: Fingers crossed. Thanks for having me, Jade.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you for joining. Thanks, Lisa.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW, Department of Education, 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

JADE ARNOLD: Welcome to episode 7 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by Gina, who is a teacher librarian and the Premier's Reading Challenge coordinator at a primary school in south-west Sydney. Gina is well-known throughout the teacher librarian community for her tireless work supporting teacher librarians to connect, collaborate and share quality resources. She's the creator of the Primary Libraries: Creative Collaboration website and related free, elective professional development for teacher librarians. She's also the creator of the Backpack Project, so it was no surprise when she was awarded the John Hirst Award in 2022 by the NSW School Library Association, which recognises excellence in professional leadership or service for NSW teacher librarians.

Gina-- thank you for joining me today. How are you?

GINA KROHN: Oh, I'm blushing after that introduction. I'm very well, thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: It was hard to condense everything down into an intro that short. I could have gone on for much, much longer. But thank you so much for joining us today.

Before we dive into our interview, I thought it would be nice to play a little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose one of them. You can defend your choices if you wish, or you can just stand on your answer by yourself. Are you ready?

GINA KROHN: I am so ready.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing, let's go.

GINA KROHN: Cool.

JADE ARNOLD: Fiction or non-fiction?

GINA KROHN: Fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Physical book or ebook?

GINA KROHN: Always, always physical.

JADE ARNOLD: Ebook or audiobook?

GINA KROHN: I've never actually listened to an audiobook. I don't think I could concentrate.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh my gosh. OK. Good answer.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, ebook.

JADE ARNOLD: Series or standalone?

GINA KROHN: Oh, it depends on the book.

JADE ARNOLD: That's a good answer.

GINA KROHN: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Books that make you laugh or books that make you cry?

GINA KROHN: Oh, I'd probably prefer a book that makes me laugh, because I think there's enough in the world to make me cry.

JADE ARNOLD: And a last question. Fantasy or historical fiction?

GINA KROHN: Fantasy.

JADE ARNOLD: Mm.

GINA KROHN: I do like historical fiction, but I live in John Flanagan's world, I'm sure.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh my gosh, yes.

GINA KROHN: I'm probably a tree, but I still live there.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] So, Gina, can you tell us a little bit about your journey towards becoming a teacher librarian?

GINA KROHN: Sure. So, I'm not going to admit to a age, I-- to-- my first year out after uni, I got a job as a librarian. I was actually trained as a classroom teacher. So, I was in the library, and I really liked it. But I was also trying to do postgrad work at uni, and I couldn't manage the 2.

So, I left, went back to uni, and then when my kids were in school, I took a long break, a very big hiatus. I caught up with a friend who was a teacher librarian on the South Coast, and we'd worked together at Amnesty International. And she'd gone off and done teacher librarianship. And she said, 'Oh, you'd be great, you know, you really like books. Do it.' So, I did.

JADE ARNOLD: That's fantastic. I love that your journey actually started in a library, and it came full circle. And now you are this person who, within the teacher librarian community, is, I guess, one of the go-tos for advice and resources and inspiration. So, a very fitting start.

GINA KROHN: Which I think is a bit funny if you don't mind me saying. But anyway, if I can help, I'm happy to help. But yeah, I'm by no means an expert.

JADE ARNOLD: As I mentioned earlier, you're the PRC coordinator at your school. Why do you choose to run this program there?

GINA KROHN: I like the idea of the PRC because I like that there's something that can offer the kids a way to read across genres and to get out of their one little comfort zone. So, I always encourage them, when they do the PRC, to read across a whole lot of different genres and to move on. And it's good with Kindy and Year 2, Kindy to Year 2, sorry, because I choose the books for them. So, we do cross a lot of different things. But I don't get the numbers 3 to 6, and I would really like to.

And actually, we had a meeting, quite a few librarians, we ended up at the state library just earlier this week. And talking about the Premier's Reading Challenge, and how some of them actually say, 'You have to do it.' And I'm thinking of going back and doing that because 3 to 6 they lose, especially in 5 to 6, they lose the desire to read. And I think that's tragic. And there's so many fabulous books out there. So, I just want them to read and enjoy it.

JADE ARNOLD: Obviously, I'm very biased here, but I think for me, the beauty about the PRC is the fact that schools can implement it in whatever way suits them. And, you know, in a certain case, if you look at how you're running it at your school and you feel like, OK, this isn't working because it's not reaching the students I want it to reach, what can we change up here? It has the flexibility for you to kind of, you know, it's just a framework. You can implement it however you like. And giving them an excuse to get students reading and hopefully pick up that habit and maintain that habit throughout their schooling is really what we're hoping for. So, that's lovely.

Can you tell us a little bit about how you run the PRC at your school, and how you keep students engaged and motivated with their reading?

GINA KROHN: Well, as I said, with K to 2, I do it during library lessons. So, we read, and we count down. We always identify the red sticker, and, you know, the kids all race up and say, 'I've got a red sticker book!'

[laughter]

'That's-- I'm so proud of you.' So, they're kind of easy to manage.

With 3 to 6, I've tried quite a few different things. I often-- I'll give book prizes to the kids that complete the challenge early on. I do try to encourage them to borrow from my library, but I think visuals are the best. And this, again, we were talking about this on Tuesday. And a lot of people had tried all sorts of things, key rings and parties and all that sort of stuff. But I think consensus really came about saying they just like a visual to see where they're progressing.

JADE ARNOLD: I agree with you so much. I think I've tried a few different things in the past when I was working in a school. And I would do little versions of that, like whether it be one year I had a tree. And every time a student completed the PRC, they'd get a leaf with their name on it to add to the tree, so that by the end of the year, the tree was nice and full. Or most recently, and this template is actually on the PRC website, just putting books on a bookshelf using a Canva template. Print those off. Cut out a piece of brown cardstock to create a shelf for each class, and labelling each class. So, it became this little class competition.

GINA KROHN: Oh gosh, they're so into competition, aren't they?

JADE ARNOLD: You're so on the spot, right, with just having some sort of visual of-- you walk into the library space, and you see that reminder of, 'Oh, that's right, I want to try and finish the PRC. I want to beat this class.' Or even, 'I just want to see my name up there. I want to see that I can do it and believe that I can do it.'

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: So, yeah, I think that's a really good piece of advice or a really good strategy.

GINA KROHN: The other thing I think is really important, too, is to capture the kids that don't normally even engage in reading is to throw out all the different books that they can read. So, I'm going to be focusing on picture books this time. So, that's thanks to Penny Harrison's idea.

JADE ARNOLD: That's awesome. Yeah, I think, obviously, engaging even older students with picture books. I would use it in high school as well as a really easy way for students to get into the PRC and get them reading, especially if they're someone who hasn't read a full book in years, or they have underlying issues with reading. Maybe they're dyslexic, or they have some other learning issue that is preventing them from being able to access books in the way that most other peers their age can. But yeah, it's such an easy but beautiful way to get students engaged, even in a high school setting, I think. So, that's a really good strategy as well. I love that.

GINA KROHN: My other strategy, sorry, and I just threw it at the teachers today because I did my little round of all the various meetings, I put it back on the teachers. If they mention a book, and we know this, if they mention a book and they say, 'This is a really good book,' the kids will come in and ask for it. So, it's talking and walking at the same time.

JADE ARNOLD: Selling, selling them the books.

GINA KROHN: That's right.

JADE ARNOLD: Advertising them. Yeah, absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: What advice would you provide to a teacher or teacher librarian who is coordinating the PRC for the first time?

GINA KROHN: I would definitely cater to yourself. I think there are individual parents that like reading to their kids and logging their progress and things like that, and that's great. But I think for ease of management, to actually do it yourself. And I always try to get them to do their own logging from Year 3 to Year 6. Obviously, I think you have to be careful with that because you have to know that the kids have read the books and all that sort of thing, but I just wouldn't make it too hard.

Maybe set up a bunch of books that have just got the PRC sticker on them in the one spot, so kids know where to go. I mean, they're usually obvious because you've got the sticker on them anyway but even having them just in the one location for a while, I've tried that a couple of times. And as we said before, with the picture books, pull those out because they often don't even realise that they're there. 'Oh my gosh, I can do this in a day.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, exactly. Oh, it feels like cheating. I'm cheating the PRC. Are you really? They're all on the book list. [laughs] OK, sure. You have cheated. [laughs] Wink wink.

GINA KROHN: But you've read a book. Haha.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Exactly.

GINA KROHN: We got you.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. Tricking them into reading.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Yeah. I just think that-- don't make it too hard. Don't feel like you're losing the battle if you don't get every child, because there are some kids that will never do it. OK? And even if you do make it compulsory, they won't necessarily finish the challenge. So, just incrementally build it up.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, don't feel like you have to do everything at once, and do what's sustainable for you.

GINA KROHN: Yes, yes, and don't go out and pauper yourself by buying prizes and things like that. Because as I said, visuals are just as good. And never underestimate the spirit of competition between classes and teachers.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. Exactly. Very, very good words of wisdom.

GINA KROHN: [laughs] Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: What are some of the things that you tried to prioritise in your school library to make reading accessible and engaging and interesting for your students?

GINA KROHN: Well, to make reading accessible, I obviously try to have a huge range of books. So, I don't particularly like graphic novels, but I do have quite a decent range of those. I don't actually have a lot of manga because I find it very hard to monitor the appropriateness, I suppose.

JADE ARNOLD: Especially at a primary level.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. And in series, they start off quite OK, and then next thing you know, you're confronted by something that you think, 'Oh, OK, that's probably not so good.'

And I try to make the library really visually appealing. So, the kids really like coming in. I'm very friendly, I think, and very easygoing. So, I generally get quite a lot of kids in at lunchtime. And I do-- with all the different things that you do throughout the year to try and get a little bit of feedback from kids, I find that they do like coming to the library. I change it up as much as I can, and they come in and they have a look. And, you know, 'Ooh, look at that.'

JADE ARNOLD: That sense of excitement over, 'Oh my gosh, what has Miss done in the library today? Oh my gosh. Look at this new display. Ooh, that's new. I didn't see that before.' Yeah, that-- just really creating that sense of wonder.

GINA KROHN: Yes. Yeah. I mean, there was also 3 years ago, I think, I put a whole lot of little Star Wars characters around that were my son's for the fourth of May.

JADE ARNOLD: Star Wars Day? Yeah.

GINA KROHN: And I lost the ladder for a while. So, they're still up there.

[laughter]

But the kids still like that sort of thing.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

GINA KROHN: So, yeah, making it physically appealing. And my library is very tiny. I call it a shoebox library. So, probably doesn't take me as long as other people to put up displays and things, and I don't always get them finished.

But I talk books all the time. I wear books. So, all my-- when I go to work, all my T-shirts talk about books. And some kids say, you know, 'Why do your T-shirts always talk about books?' And I look at them and go, 'Well, why do you think?'

[laughter]

You know, book earrings, book brooches, you name it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

GINA KROHN: Found some book hair ties the other day, so you know.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I love that.

GINA KROHN: Got those going. Yeah. So, when they see me, they know. It's that immediate association. And I am very enthusiastic when I talk about books.

JADE ARNOLD: I think that's so important, too, just having students see your passion for reading. Especially for someone who may not be super excited by the idea of reading, it really will make them think over time, 'Why is my teacher so obsessed with reading? Why do you think it's as good as it is? What's going on here?' And might actually be the thing that persuades them to try something new or try to pick up a book.

And for those kids who are already voracious readers, it's that really good, positive feedback loop of, 'Oh, you love this? I'm really passionate about this. Let me share something with you,' and then I'll go share that with my friends. And it just becomes that school-wide culture.

GINA KROHN: Mm, and that's what we're trying to do at my school, is to build up that culture with the kids from the ground. And I think we've had some success in the last couple of years. But yeah, it's the enthusiasm, and the honesty, too. I mean, I do tell them, 'If you don't like the book, don't read it.'

JADE ARNOLD: Put it down.

GINA KROHN: I will never read 'Captain Underpants'. Don't ask me.

JADE ARNOLD: If it's not for you, it's not for you.

GINA KROHN: Exactly. Exactly, and-- and I don't judge.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, exactly. I would always have-- I give myself this rule, but if I'm not enjoying a book after 3, maybe 4 chapters, it's time to put it down. It's not for me. I might come back to it. And I would have that talk as well with my students of, you know, 'give it a shot'. You can't tell from page 3 if whether or not--

GINA KROHN: Or the first 2 lines.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. 'Oh, I'm bored.' OK, you've read one page.

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's figure out who these characters are first and what they're doing. But yeah, having a guideline of, at least try 3 chapters, and then if you still don't like it, it's not for you. Put it down. Try something else and keep trying to find the book that you like.

GINA KROHN: That's right. And as I say to them, 'We have thousands of books in the library.' And they go, 'What, really?'

JADE ARNOLD: One of them's got to be for you.

GINA KROHN: That's right.

JADE ARNOLD: I mean, hopefully more than one.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: I'm sure many, but at least one. [laughs] Beyond the PRC, what are some of the key things your job as a teacher librarian entails?

GINA KROHN: Wow. OK, well.

JADE ARNOLD: How long is a piece of string?

GINA KROHN: How long is a piece of string? How long is 2 pieces of string? Because I think essentially, we all know, those of us in the job, that it is 2 jobs. It's 2 distinct jobs. So, there's the teaching side of it, which, in my school, I focus on information literacy and the love of reading and try very hard to work with the kids on building their skills for high school. I tell them if they get to high school and they froth at the mouth when they hear the word plagiarism, I have done my job. Yeah, we do not copy and paste.

And the library job is being a librarian. So, it is all the admin side of it, which is time-consuming. Looking for good books, looking for the right fit with the books is time-consuming.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a very detailed skill as well. It's not just a case of looking at a new catalogue and going, 'OK, I'm going to buy all the ones where the covers look nice,' or 'I'm going to buy this,' or 'I'm going to buy what's cheapest.' There's a lot of thought that goes into every purchase.

GINA KROHN: Yes. And I think it's really important to bear in mind your audience, I suppose. So, I mean, I buy for the children. OK, I confess that there are a lot of fantasy books in my library, but I do encourage them to read them. But also, supporting your staff, which is not as big a deal in my school now because everything's online. But it's still, we work together to get the kids to read.

And I've had a few teachers come in and ask for stacks of fiction books or stacks of non-fiction books, and things like that. So, it's being able to manage the admin side of that, as well as the library side, which is knowing the right book to give to the kids at their age or their stage or whatever.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it's that real fusion of both being a teacher and being a librarian is being able to find the books that are engaging and at the right kind of level for those students.

GINA KROHN: And excite them enough to take the next step to move out of the little niche that they're already in. Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a difficult skill, but one that I know that you do well.

GINA KROHN: [laughs] Well, I don't know if I do it well, but I enjoy it.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, that's half the battle, isn't it?

One of the key aims of this podcast is to assist teacher librarians, teachers or parents in helping their students or children find their first, or their next, great read, because it can often be so overwhelming for students when they're standing between the bookshelves and trying to figure out what to read next.

As a teacher librarian, how do you help connect your students with their next great read?

GINA KROHN: I try to read as much as I can of the books that come into the library. Obviously, with picture books, that's kind of easy. I do tell the kids I'm not going to read some particular books, but I do try to read everything so I can give them really authentic feedback. I don't really like saying, 'Oh, I read the blurb and this looks really good.' So, I like to get into the book and get them into the book. So, I try that.

With parents, I don't often recommend to parents through the newsletter. That's one way that I communicate with the parents. But for me, I look at things like the 'Your Kid's Next Read' podcast and those sorts of things because, obviously, they're really-- they're overwhelming because there's so much traffic on there. But they do give really good suggestions, and I use that to feed the kids, too.

And also asking the kids what they really want, too, because every now and then they'll say, 'Have you got in something different? I want to try something different. I want to try a sad story,' or whatever. So, yeah, often led by the kids. But yeah, my main skill, I suppose, is just reading really quickly and being able to get--

JADE ARNOLD: Reading very widely.

GINA KROHN: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important. And also, 'Your Kid's Next Read' is a fantastic resource. That was actually part of the inspiration in starting this podcast.

GINA KROHN: Oh, OK, yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: But obviously where that is focused very heavily on the parent side of things, we want to try and support teacher librarians very specifically. And maybe parents will find this useful as well.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Other podcasts or things, blogs particularly I suppose, is Margot Lindgren's blog. What she doesn't know about books, I think is not worth knowing, and she has really good reviews on hers. But there's quite a lot. And off the top of my head, I can't really think of them, I suppose, but I can see them.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

GINA KROHN: But I can't really think of them. But I find the biggest trap to that sort of thing is time, because it does actually take quite a lot of time to go through and really decide whether or not you want those books in your library. Are they suitable? Are they even-- because quite a lot of books, I suppose, that I see reviews for are from the States, and very different audience. It's kind of difficult finding books here, I think, that can really grab our kids.

JADE ARNOLD: And just having that authentic Australian voice, even if it's a book by an Australian author, not necessarily in an Australian setting, it might be a fantasy setting or even overseas, but having that authentic Australian voice is something that I think students really connect to, and being able to see themselves and their own experiences, and seeing their own culture and experiences reflected in the books that they read.

There's always going to be, I think, overseas books that do hit the Australian market that are very popular. But it's also so important, I think, to give students the opportunity to read something that reflects their own as well.

GINA KROHN: I think for teacher librarians, a really good service is not just to look at standing orders and things like that, but to go out. And I'm thinking of bookshops that I'm sure are in every city, but like Lost In Books here, which is a lot of different books from different backgrounds, very multicultural. And we need to look at those sorts of things.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. Yeah. I think standing orders are a really good starting point, but they don't let you make it customised to your particular school environment. So, there's always that need for you to have a collection that you're curating that is very much reflective of your students and their particular interests, and the types of things that they want to see in their reading and on the shelves at the library. So, yeah, that's--

GINA KROHN: I think standing orders are great, again, going back to beginning teacher librarians, because if you get those, you know you're going to be getting the popular books for the kids, which is fantastic. And it frees you up to spend time on other parts of the job, because there's a lot of them. So, doing that for a year or 2, I think, takes that pressure of curating off. And that gives you time to learn your school, to learn your collection, and learn the kids. So, they do have a place.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's some really good advice. Thank you.

Now, I think every teacher librarian has encountered students who don't enjoy reading. What are some of the strategies you use with students who don't see themselves as readers in your school library?

GINA KROHN: I did say before, I'm not a big fan of graphic novels, but I do try to introduce those to the kids. There's some fantastic authors working with graphic novels, too, so it's not just the really popular spag bol ones.

[laughter]

For want of a better term. So, I will try those. But I also-- I've divided my library. So, I have a junior fiction section, which is often just picture books and very early chapter books. And then I have a middle fiction section, and it basically is supposed to cater from Year 2 through to Year 6. So, they're all in the one spot, and they're all broken up into Premier's Reading Challenge. So, we have the stickers on them. So, you might have some Year 5 to 6 stickers in the middle fiction section.

But my hope was-- I didn't want to have fast reads or easy reads and things like that, so I wanted to have a middle fiction section where nearly any kid in the school could browse in that area and find something. So, I have the picture books in there for middle fiction. I'm using inverted commas for those.

JADE ARNOLD: Air quotes. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, I try to have picture books in there. I'll have graphic novels in there, and I mix them up as well, and just try to have a really good range of exciting, I suppose, books. I mean, I'm thinking Kristen Darell's new books are great ones. They are easy reads. OK. But for kids who are really interested in animals and might not have an interest in doing very much else, they'll jump into them. So, I think that's the key, though. It's just having a range of books, that you know you can pull something out for a kid.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. Here's your soccer book. Here's your cricket book. Here's your Minecraft book.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Something that we ourselves as adult readers would not enjoy, but we know that will spark that joy in someone else.

GINA KROHN: Yeah. And selling it to them with enthusiasm, and 'I would never read this, but if you read this, please come and tell me because then I need to tell somebody else about it.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And if you like it, come back and tell me so we can rant about how good it was.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, you might convince me to read it.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. I loved getting recommendations off my students, and going and reading the books that I would have probably never have thought to pick up myself, and then coming back to it and being like, 'You know what? I actually see what you'd like in this.' And sometimes there'd be fantastic recommendations. I think that's a really powerful conversation to have that goes both ways of, you know, 'What you like, OK, sell it back on to me.' But obviously, giving them the opportunity to have everything in that library space that will appeal to them, regardless of what it is.

GINA KROHN: And things like book tastings and stuff like that. So, they can do that and there's no pressure on them to read the whole book. But I do also say, as you were saying before, if you don't like the book, don't read it. I don't pressure them.

There are some kids who-- they don't have books at home. There's no modelling or anything like that. And in class, there's not always a lot of time for silent reading or sustained silent reading, especially. So, I don't push them if they really don't want to. They'll sit there, and they'll turn the pages of non-fiction books. And I'm cool with that, too.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, obviously, if we're nagging at students to read and making it seem like a chore, they're not going to enjoy it anyway. So, having that really positive approach is fantastic.

So, for any listeners who might be new to the teacher librarian world or who aren't aware of book tastings, generally, it's a format-- and feel free to chime in if you do it slightly differently, but-- where you've got multiple tables set up in your library or another large space with a number of different books on each table. You can set it up any way you like. I used to set it up with 1 or 2 different genres per table, but you can do it just a few random books per table. It doesn't have to have any particular pattern to it.

And you give students a set time to-- I would give them 60 seconds, to choose what table they're going to sit at for a round. Then they had 60 seconds to read or have a look at the blurb and flick through and see if they wanted to commit to reading that book. And then if that book was still in their hand at the end of that 60 seconds, that was their tasting that they were doing, or their book date is what I would often call it.

And then they would have between 3 to 5 minutes, depending on the length of the period, to read that book. And then at the end of that 5-minute period, they would then mark down on a little sheet, 'I read this. Do I like it? Yes/no.' 'Do I want to borrow it in the future? Yes/no.' Very quick, very simple. And then move on to a next desk.

They couldn't sit at the same desk twice because the idea is that they have to keep moving and moving. And if it's a class where the students would kind of group into the same cohort of friend groups, I would make the rule that you can't sit with the same people every session so that friends wouldn't just follow each other around, so that they would actually make conscious choices of--

GINA KROHN: And they'd read, not chat.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. So, they'd have to think, 'OK, well, I'm going to go here next, even if my friend doesn't want to because I can't sit with them the next round anyway, so, it doesn't matter,' as much as I was maybe a little tough on that.

[laughter]

But yeah, that's the premise of a book tasting, or a-- speed dating with a book. Both refer to the same thing. They're very easy to set up.

And I'm sure your experiences are very similar, but they always resulted in a number of students actually thinking, 'Oh, this book isn't that bad.' And you'd have your highest borrowing rates after those classes. And sometimes you'd have kids picking up a pile of books so high that you're worried that they're going to drop them. So, very, very powerful, but very simple strategy to set up.

Do you have any go-to recommendations for students who don't see themselves as readers? And can you share a little of what they're about, or how you'd 'pitch' them to your students when they're standing between the bookshelves, trying to decide whether or not they actually want to read a book?

GINA KROHN: I often get the question, 'Miss, I really would like an adventure book.' And it's like, 'OK, why didn't you ask me about fantasy? I really could have helped you with that.'

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] That's your area of expertise.

[laughter]

GINA KROHN: I do what we all do, I suppose. You browse the shelves and have a look, and if you grab a few books and bring them over and we'll have a chat, provided the rest of the class is quiet enough. But because I read so many of them, I'm honest with them. And I say, 'Look, I haven't read everything, but these are the ones that I really liked.' and 'I loved the characters in this one,' or 'I loved the storyline. This one made me cry,' or whatever.

So, again, it's that personal recommendation, which doesn't have to be from me. That can be from a friend as well. And sometimes I'll grab a friend and say, 'Well, have you read this one? What did you think about it?' So, it's really just talking up the books, I think, and just saying that you enjoyed them.

Or some of them I'll pull out and I'll say, 'Oh, you might like this one because it's got this stuff, which you said that you liked. I didn't like it. I thought it was great until the end.' So, those sorts of things. But I don't ever say to them, 'Oh, it was fantastic, and you have to read it all because I loved it.' Because I think as we've said a couple of times, you just don't read everything because not everything is for you. Hmm.

JADE ARNOLD: I really like that approach of focusing on what it is that you liked, and I think those peer recommendations are one of the most powerful ways to influence people to read something else. I mean, if you look at social media and things like BookTok or Bookstagram, or even like YouTube videos that are book recommendations, there is that very social influence. And we like to share things with other people. So, if you can really emphasise to students, 'This is what I liked,' or even, 'This is what one of my other students in another class liked so I think you might like that too,' that's a really powerful way to share that and convince them to pick it up.

GINA KROHN: Yeah well, I do that, but I'll often-- and again, I think that most teacher librarians would do it as well-- is to get other kids because there's nothing like a peer recommendation.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Or a teacher recommendation, and again, I think teachers need to realise how powerful their recommendations are. But peer recommendations are also really good. And I love it when you sit down with the kids and you say, 'OK, well, who's read what?' And there's always a couple, there's never lots, but there's always a couple that are just busting to tell you what their books were about.

And other kids will say, 'Oh, yeah, I've read that one,' or 'I read that one.' 'Oh, yeah, I wouldn't mind reading that one.' So, it kind of gets a conversation going. It can get a bit out of hand at times, but I don't care if it gets them excited.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, look, I think if they're getting passionate about books and reading and sharing that with each other, sometimes you need to let it get a little out of hand. [laughs]

Everyone assumes that libraries are quiet spaces, but they rarely are, especially when people like us are in them. [laughs]

How do you go about developing your library's collection? What are you looking for when you're selecting books for your library?

GINA KROHN: Very basically, I'm trying to make sure that I have complete series, things like that. If there's a popular author, I have as many of their books as I can. As I said, I have a very tiny library, so I do get to the point.

And John, another very good librarian that I know, said that-- his thing was, 'I've given this author plenty of real estate, can't get any more. If kids want to keep reading their books, they either have to go and buy them or go to their local library,' which I think is a great suggestion. So, I'm at that point where some authors that I seriously can't fit any more in the library.

So, I look at what the kids want first. I always ask them. Sometimes-- they always come back with manga and whatever. And, I don't know, I got so many requests for Fortnite, but I don't go to some of those places, right?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I mean, book-- starting off with students' recommendations is fantastic and very powerful. But they also still have to meet your school's collection development policy and be appropriate, in your case, for a primary school library. So, it's great that they can ask. We can't always meet their needs, though. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: No, that's right. But I can always recommend the local library. So, that's a really nice thing to share with them. And the fact that it's free, because I think a lot of them think, 'Oh, we have to pay all this money.'

But what I'm looking for in the books, I suppose, again, it depends on which stage I'm shopping for because you want accessibility of the text. You want great illustrations. I love the covers. And I'd actually like to do a unit around the covers of books because I find it really interesting that there are some-- don't know how they're created, let's be honest-- but they're really engaging. And then others that have a good story, and the covers, they just don't grab me.

And I feel really bad about that because if I'm shopping online-- because where I live there's no bookshops nearby, so I do a lot of my shopping online. Yeah, I probably wouldn't look at them because they don't look appealing. And so, I don't think the kids will grab them as well.

And I think we see that, on our shelves, you can see books where the kids will go again and again and again. And it's not just the author. It is the whole parcel. And there are some great books, including older ones-- older sort of classics, I suppose-- but they're just-- yeah. The pictures just make them look like, 'Oh, my dad would have read that. I'm not going to borrow that.'

JADE ARNOLD: But there is a reason why there is an art for creating good cover art is we are very visual creatures. And we will make that snap judgement based on a cover. And a lot of the time, that's our first impression. There's so much competing for our attention.

I know that publishers are always so focused on not just having a really good story to give to readers but to sell that story really well with the right type of cover art. And I think, not always, but I think a good cover is a really good way or a really good indicator of success in some areas.

It shouldn't always be, but when I was looking for purchasing stuff, especially if there's multiple editions, I would always try and buy-- as long as it wasn't more expensive-- try and buy the edition cover that was a nicer cover or maybe a more updated one. So, that exactly as you were saying, it's more appealing to students. They're more likely to pick it up.

It doesn't necessarily look like it's been sitting on the shelves for 50 years or passed down by their grandmother or something like that. Even though books like that can be absolutely so important to us and fantastic stories, sometimes we've got to also sell it to kids. And it has to be attractive and appealing. So, sometimes we do have to judge the book by its cover.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, I agree, and I think kids like looking at the different covers. I love the puzzled look on their faces when they get the same book with different-- 'It's a different book.' 'No, it's the same book.' You know--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and I think that's where something like, if you do have some ugly book covers in your library, doing something like a blind date with a book where you wrap them up, that shortcuts that completely because then they don't know what the book is. And there's a lot of benefit to doing something like that as well.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, I used to do that on Library Lovers' Day.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

GINA KROHN: It just took so--

JADE ARNOLD: It is very time consuming.

GINA KROHN: New librarians-- don't try it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, unless you're in a-- I don't know. I've always been in a high school setting, so I've had an army of student librarians to help me. And with students, it is much more achievable. If you're in a primary library and you don't have as many older students to help you, it would be very, very hard to do.

GINA KROHN: I have tried it with the kids, actually, and it's not too bad, but sometimes they think that they have to write a little blurb. Obviously, they're not allowed to put the title on or anything like that. They get the barcode wrong. So, that's a bit of a killer--

[laughter]

--because then I have to open it to have a look.

But I just bought a stack of those brown paper bags, but then they want to borrow the one that they've just wrapped up. And it's--

[laughter]

But that's not the point.

JADE ARNOLD: I mean, I guess you're still achieving the same thing, but yeah, no. That's a lot of work to put in.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, that's right. I'm going to take this one. Yeah, OK.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Yeah, getting the barcode right for that is very important. Otherwise, it goes pear shaped. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Mm, very quickly. Mm.

JADE ARNOLD: What are some of the most popular books in your library?

GINA KROHN: Well, I run the reports at the end of each year to show the parents and as part of my report to the principal. And I think for the last couple of years, 'Dog Man' has been one of the most borrowed books. And I was a little bit surprised, but Meredith Costain's books, 'Ella' and 'Olivia', seem to be really popular as well.

'Dog Man' doesn't surprise me because I do see them coming through all the time. And I guess the other one did surprise me a little bit because even though they're obviously-- the girls might borrow them 4 or 5 at a time-- they didn't seem to dominate, but they did. 'Peppa Pig'--

[laughter]

'Peppa Pig' is big.

I don't have a lot of 'Bluey'. I'm building that collection. But yes, that's very popular. 'WeirDo', I think, is reasonably popular, and the kids do seem to go for series as well. They don't necessarily go for things that they've seen on TV, which I think is interesting because it's-- all power to TV shows. But obviously, I've got the T-shirt. 'The book was better.' And I generally believe that. I'm in 2 minds about 'Lord of the Rings', though, let me just say.

JADE ARNOLD: We could make a separate podcast episode just on that, but we won't today.

[laughter]

GINA KROHN: No, another time. Yeah, so those are the most popular. I don't have a lot of borrowing with teachers. Generally, there's only a couple of teachers that borrow quite a bit to read to their kids, which is disappointing, but I'll work on that this year as well. I suggested 'Scar Town' as a book 2 years ago, I think, to one class teacher. And the kids have just maxed out on Tristan Bancks. I really like his stuff.

One of the things is, too, that the books that are most popular sometimes are the things that, either, I've been talking about, or if you have an author visit, which is just so exciting for the kids, then that shoots your book stats out as well. We had Deb Abela last year, and everybody wanted 'Grimsdon' and 'The Kindness Project' and those-- her books. They were great, so that was really good.

We had Kate Foster by Zoom, and she was really-- she was great. She was lovely to talk to, answered any of the questions from the kids. And so, her books were-- just you couldn't keep them on the shelves, either. So, if you got low-- and they're Australian authors, obviously. If you've got low borrowing rates, an author visit, or an author talk is a really great way to go too because the kids just can't believe they're real people.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely.

GINA KROHN: Which I think is kind of funny.

JADE ARNOLD: I think I was talking to Ashleigh Barton in a previous episode, and she was saying that's-- that's one of the-- the most rewarding things for her as an author, to actually go into schools and to visit them and get them really excited about that. And I think in an earlier podcast, also, with Yvette Poshoglian-- I think that was episode 1-- where she was talking about that connection between coming into a school library and then having kids read those books, which, yeah, you're absolutely correct.

It's one of those things where students, I think, forget that authors-- or don't realise that authors are real people and that there is a person behind the creation of this book. And so as soon as they've made that connection, it then sparks a real interest in what they have to say.

GINA KROHN: And a stampede.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah! [laughs] You'd better have multiple copies or a good reservation system. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Which just goes to show, I think, too, that all this talk about 'kids don't want to read anymore', it's just not true. They just-- I think they need to be reshown how exciting books are because all their thinking is done for them with games and stuff. There's strategy. And I'm not a fan of online gaming, I guess. But I can see that there is certainly some value in that in lots of different ways.

But I don't think that there's any comparison to really being able to-- all the benefits that books bring you, all the benefits from tolerance to walking in somebody else's shoes. So, different perspectives from-- yeah, just opening yourself.

JADE ARNOLD: Developing empathy and--

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, there's so much to be gained from a book. And I think it's often a case of there being so much competing for students' demands, for their attention, for their time-- sport, extracurricular activities, all their social media, games-- all of those types of things do take up a lot of time and a lot of energy. And they're often things that either parents will take them to or they're things that have a lot of social capital with their friendship groups.

So, you do need to remind them that, actually, this is an option as well, and it is very entertaining. And you can develop social capital through this. You can develop really good friendships through the books that you share. But we-- kind of comes down to us, I guess, as teacher librarians, to remind them of that and to keep that in the front of their mind because there's just so much competing for their attention.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, and I think you can see that, too. I know at my school, one of the issues that we have, I believe, anyway, is reading resilience. I find that if it doesn't happen in the first 3 lines, 'I'm bored.' But you just need to get them to stick with it.

JADE ARNOLD: I like that.

GINA KROHN: And there's so many other things around them that do grab their attention. I find-- it takes them a long time to settle. If I say, 'We're going to be quiet reading,' it can take them 20 minutes because they're just so used to buzzing everywhere and being engaged, whether they like what they have to be doing or not. But it just feels a little bit foreign, I think, to them to sit down quietly and to get into their heads through a book.

JADE ARNOLD: I really liked that phrasing of reading resilience. I would call it reading stamina, that-- similar kind of thing. You've got to-- you wouldn't be able to expect to run a marathon if you just chucked on your joggers and went for a run around the block. You need to build up to that. It's a muscle that you have to develop.

GINA KROHN: You mean that's more-- that's a marathon?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: The running around the block, was it?

JADE ARNOLD: I feel like running around the block is a marathon, personally. I know it's not, but it's much more than just being able to dive straight into it. And it takes time, and it takes practice, and it takes resilience. So, maybe I'll steal that. Maybe I'll stop calling it reading stamina and start calling it reading resilience.

GINA KROHN: It's not original, but you're welcome.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you.

GINA KROHN: Because I think that's exactly what it is. And that's what kids need to understand, that there is benefit in just sitting down quietly, even if they're not engaging with the text so much. Yeah, I think they just need a little bit of space in their heads.

JADE ARNOLD: In your opinion, what are some of the 'must have' titles in a primary school collection, and can you tell us a bit about them?

GINA KROHN: I think, again, it depends on which stage you're buying for. So, obviously, with Kindy, I mean, I love Pamela Allen's books, Bob Graham's books, Alison Lester-- so many great books. And they're older, established authors, too.

There's lots of-- Heidi McKinnon, I think she's great. Philip Bunting's books, I think, are really cool. I do like Jon Klassen's 'The Rock from the Sky'. And I don't exclusively push Australian authors, I suppose, but I do try to encourage my kids to take advantage of the great talent that we've got here.

Obviously, 'Peppa Pig' is not Australian, but 'Bluey' is. I saw something yesterday, I think it was, from SBS saying that Americans had watched 55 billion minutes of 'Bluey' or something in the last year, and I was like, 'yes'.

JADE ARNOLD: That's awesome.

GINA KROHN: It is. Not all at once, I suspect.

JADE ARNOLD: But still. It's good to see our culture is being exported to the US instead of the other way around.

GINA KROHN: Even if it is a cattle dog, yeah. For Year 1 and Year 2-- I think I underestimated my Year 2's for a long time, so I am more interested in getting chapter books for them now. So, obviously, your progressions with Sally Rippin's 'School of Monsters' is fantastic for Kindy and moving into Year 1. 'Billie B Brown' and 'Hey Jack!' Year 2, 'Tashi'. They love 'Tashi' still. Again, an older book, but they're sort of the go-tos that my kids would go to.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it always surprises me. That's always a book that features on the most read book list, because I would have assumed-- it's relatively old. I wouldn't have thought that it's still being read, but year after year I am wrong.

GINA KROHN: But it's like this.

JADE ARNOLD: I am wrong. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah, they-- I don't know. I think quirky little characters, they like them. Yeah, so 3 and 4, well, I wouldn't necessarily say must have but popular, obviously. The kids like all the Anh Do books, though, I must say, they're getting a bit tired of how some of them keep going on and on and on. 'When is this going to finish, Miss?' 'I don't know.'

But my favourite stage to buy for, I suppose, because that's where they really get into the fantasy, is Stage 3. And I think there's loads of books. I mean, RA Spratt's 'Friday Barnes'. There's the Springer books, the murder mysteries, Jack Heath, how can you go past his books? They're amazing-- and Tristan Bancks.

I'm not a fan of the quirky, funny ones like 'Diary of a Wimpy Kid' and things like that. But if you want your kids to read, buy those ones as well. And I think that's-- the tricky thing is to think, 'I'll buy these popular ones, but I want to expand their repertoire. And I want them to extend a bit.'

And if they don't, they don't. And it's kind of their loss, I suppose. I will give them every opportunity. But I think also having a really good stock of non-fiction books as well. So, the National Geographic for kids books, I think they're fantastic. And they're really highly borrowed by Kinder and Year 1, you know, the little ones at my school.

But there's some beautiful non-fiction books. I just wish they wouldn't make them so tall. They don't fit on the shelves. That's really awkward.

JADE ARNOLD: They are tricky to fit on sometimes.

GINA KROHN: Yes, publishers, listen.

JADE ARNOLD: Publishers need to think about that.

GINA KROHN: No, no. And I don't know where they fit because they don't fit in school bags and library bags, either.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and they're very heavy for small children to be carting around.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, that's right. I have a lot of 'not for borrowing' stickers.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, just make them a few centimetres smaller.

GINA KROHN: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: That'd be great. [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I think some really good non-fiction books, and there are a lot out there now. So, you can get them in every library, I think, to have a really good spread. But again, it comes back to your kids as well because some kids might not like-- if you're in a girls-only school or a boys-only school, there's lots of titles that you're not going to have, yeah. So, I think you have to be across a whole range of the publishing literature, which, again, takes time.

JADE ARNOLD: And I guess that's one of those things that when people think of 'what does teacher librarianship involve?' it involves a very vast skill set that you hone over a period of time. It's not just a simple, 'Yep, that book looks good. I'll buy that.'

GINA KROHN: I do that occasionally, and sometimes it's spot on. And sometimes, it's never borrowed. I've had a couple of those, and it's like, 'Oh, I'm just going to weed that one, then, pretend it never happened.'

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Now, I mentioned earlier that you are the founder of the Primary Libraries: Creative Collaboration, often referred to as the PLCC. Can you tell us a little bit about this?

GINA KROHN: OK, so it started in 2018, and it was mainly-- I got my job at my school in 2016. It was my first permanent position, and I had just finished the master's degree. And I really didn't feel like the degree equipped me to teach library.

It taught me how to run a library, and it gave-- it was good in lots and lots of ways. But the thing that really would have helped me was-- I took it. It was an optional course. So, what do they call them?

JADE ARNOLD: The electives.

GINA KROHN: The elective, yeah, on children's literature. So, I really didn't feel like I knew what I was doing. And people say, 'Oh, that's all right. You'll pick it up. You'll get used to it.' And I thought, 'No, I'm going to die if I don't find out soon.'

So, I foolishly organised a conference. And the idea was to get people to come in-- and other teacher librarians, not industry people-- to come in and to talk about what they did in their own libraries and what worked. And you would break off into work groups and come up with resources that you could use the next day when you went back to school.

And it was supposed to be a one-off, hence the date on the email address. But it went on, so people were really happy with it. So, we did-- I think I did 4 altogether. I did some-- I just got accreditation for it through NESA and COVID came. So, that one got cancelled. But then I did-- the following year, did online.

And the whole idea behind it is to share resources at no cost, because a lot of us don't have the budget to do that sort of thing, but everybody creates amazing resources. Some of them aren't so great. Some of mine are really dodgy, but somebody can take it and improve it or change it.

JADE ARNOLD: A springboard and saving them from reinventing the wheel.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, because we do that in every library around the state, around the country, for those lucky enough to have librarians. And yeah, I just thought-- I didn't want to-- I don't want to have to go and buy a book for $50 that's going to have some library lessons in it that I might use for a couple of years, and then they're gone.

So, the idea of the PLCC site is that with your principal's permission, you share your programs. And I keep them up there, and people can download them and use them as they want to. And we created a scope and sequence.

I was told that that was a really bad thing to do, but the whole point of that was to be a flexible scope and sequence because as we know, we didn't have one in library. And we were supposed to cover all these different outcomes. So, yeah, it was just there like a big help desk, I suppose, is really what it was like.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and it's just grown into this massive thing. You can spend hours on that website. I know I did often.

GINA KROHN: Did you?

JADE ARNOLD: As a teacher librarian, absolutely. Even though, obviously, in a high school setting, a lot of the scope and sequences don't necessarily apply to our context or different stages for our stages. But there's also a treasure trove of ideas for running the PRC, doing--

GINA KROHN: Book tastings.

JADE ARNOLD: Book tastings, all these different activities-- displays. Like I could sit here and list off different things for 5 minutes.

GINA KROHN: Feel free.

JADE ARNOLD: I'm not going to. I'm not going to. I'm going to say, if you're a TL starting out, especially if you're a primary teacher librarian, definitely visit the site. There are so many wonderful resources there to make you feel a little less overwhelmed. And it's a testament, I think, to the teacher librarian community, how collegial we are and how committed to sharing that, and then also to all your hard work to put it together and maintain that massive website.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, it's supposed to be a one-stop shop. So, if people find it helpful, that's good because I usually spend Saturdays fiddling and not doing housework.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful.

GINA KROHN: Finding stuff.

JADE ARNOLD: And then another wonderful initiative that you've spearheaded is the Backpack Project. What inspired you to start this project, and what is it?

GINA KROHN: OK. Well, what inspired me was a few years ago, pre-COVID, I was doing some author studies. And I'd borrowed from the CBCA Travelling Suitcases, and I went looking for them, and I couldn't find them. And I'd send off email after email and contacted people who I thought would know where they were, and nobody seemed to know.

Nobody still seems to know where they are, to be honest. They've disappeared. And at my last conference for the PLCC, I had Tristan Bancks there. And I just said, 'Hey, Tristan,' now that we're besties, would he be interested if I put a backpack together, and we put some engagement materials?

And he said, 'Yes.' And after that conference, he had a Room to Read event in Balmain. So, I went off to the Room to Read event with him, and Deb Abela was there. I said, 'Hey, Deb.' And Pip Harry was there.

JADE ARNOLD: 'Hey, Pip.' [laughs]

GINA KROHN: Yeah, that's right. Sarah Davis was there. So, I actually got 5. I can't remember who the other one was. And then Jacqui Harvey was having one of her high teas. So, I drove from where I lived down in Wollongong up to Lane Cove, I think, and hijacked her. And she went, 'Oh yeah, that'd be great.'

And it just started from there. So, the whole point is that it gives kids lots of different access points to stories. So, obviously, the backpacks have the author's books in there. And I'm so grateful to all the publishers that provide these for free, because this is an unfunded project. So, yes, donations are welcome.

So, we have the books, and it's really great when you have a range of picture books through to chapter books because it can be used for a whole lot of different stages. There are games in there. There's puzzles. There's-- I have a lot of puppets, so I went a bit crazy with puppets.

So, I've got a lot of puppets but engagement materials for the kids to use in play around the books. And I've asked the authors-- most of them have been really fantastic-- to give me lots of information about themselves, which isn't necessarily on their website. So, that's something else that can be a focus of a lesson but also a challenge.

So, this is a point of differentiation from the CBCA because they had the teacher notes and those sorts of things as well. But the challenges the authors have come up with, some of them are great, and some of them said, 'I don't know what to do. What do you think we should do?'

But the kids can do the challenges, and it doesn't matter if they do, or they don't. When you have a backpack, that's not really important. But I did want them to-- the authors to give some feedback if the kids did challenges. And I do get emails from the authors saying, 'Oh, I got feedback from this primary school, and it was really cool.'

And at the end of the year, I went through and emailed quite a few of the authors and said, 'Well, your backpack's been borrowed.' Tristan Bancks's backpack was actually booked 22 times, so he's just come through. We're putting a second one together, and I've got to post it out this weekend.

Sami Bayly donated all her books. She was amazing, but it was booked so many times that we have 2 backpacks for her as well. Deb Abela, obviously, really, really popular, but it's also-- there's quite a few authors that people wouldn't know. And illustrators, sorry, it's not just-- it's creators.

So, Vaughan Duck, who's an illustrator based in South Australia, so, he hasn't written any books. But he's illustrated quite a few. Frances-- sorry, Frances, I've forgotten your last name. But she's got lots of books that are like ABCs and 123s, and they're great for Kindys and things like that. But she's not a well-known name.

Yeah, there's lots of authors, I think, that people would recognise their names. You were talking about Ashleigh Barton. She's-- yeah, we've got her. I think there's 47 now, 48.

JADE ARNOLD: That's phenomenal.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, but I like it because I just like the kids-- I know from my kids at my school that they get excited opening it up and having a look and seeing what's in there. And I have been able to use the books, and I love it when they're just sitting there listening to it.

You know how kids look when-- they look like they're not thinking about anything, but you know they're so totally in the story. And that's really good. So, yeah, it's just an engagement thing. So, teacher librarians can use it how they like. It doesn't cost them anything to book. The cost is in sending it on--

JADE ARNOLD: Just the postage.

GINA KROHN: Yeah, and replacing anything that goes missing because sometimes children just really like that toy.

JADE ARNOLD: And it goes home with them.

GINA KROHN: Yes.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Accidentally, hopefully.

GINA KROHN: Hmm, yeah, so it's a-- I'm really proud of it, I suppose. But it does have an end life. So, I'm planning on having it run until the end of 2028.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. It's such a fantastic initiative. I don't if we should plug it because it sounds like it's so busy already. But if you're interested in booking a backpack, that's on the PLCC website as well, isn't it?

GINA KROHN: Yes, it's got its own tab-- Backpack Project. Just check the availability. There is a spreadsheet there, and make sure that the backpack that you want is actually available. And each creator has their own backpack page, so you can actually see what's-- the physical items in there.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, awesome. Final question for today-- what are you currently reading now, or what are you looking forward to reading next?

GINA KROHN: I've got a whole stack of Premier's Reading Challenge books that are waiting to be read.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes.

GINA KROHN: I actually just finished Kristin Darell's zoo series, so I did enjoy those. And yeah, they don't take too long to read as an adult. So, that's why I like going through those because then I can recommend them to the kids.

But yeah, over Christmas, I didn't really read too much, but I'm not picking up anything at the moment. I can picture some books that kids have told me to read. A lot of Nova Weetman's books the kids really like. I know I want to read Maryam Master's second book. I haven't read that one yet. And I think I'll just watch 'Bluey' rather than read it.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Gina. I have no doubt our teacher librarian listeners will have been inspired by your enthusiasm and your deep knowledge and will hopefully give some of your strategies a try in their own libraries. And I also hope they visit the PLCC website and consider signing up for the Backpack Project. Both of those are such fantastic ways to support developing a love of reading in our students and supporting the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. So, thank you for joining us.

GINA KROHN: My absolute pleasure.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ the Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 6 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by bestselling author Ashleigh Barton. She is the author of multiple picture books including 'What Do You Call Your Grandpa?', 'What Do You Call Your Grandma?', 'How Do You Say I Love You?' and many more. She is also the author of middle grade fiction series 'Solomon Macaroni', 'Freddie Spector, Fact Collector', and her latest release, 'How to Sail to Somewhere', which hit shelves on the 26th of March.

Ashleigh, thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. And I'm good, thanks. How are you?

JADE ARNOLD: I'm so good. It's such a pleasure to have you in here. And I thought before we begin, I thought it would be nice to play a quick little game of this or that. Basically, I'm going to give you 2 different options, and you need to choose from one of them. Feel free to defend your choices if you wish or just go with your answer and give us nothing else. Up to you. Are you ready?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I'm ready.

JADE ARNOLD: Awesome. So, fiction or non-fiction?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: This is a funny one, because the answer is definitely fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: But when I was a kid, I felt like non-fiction was homework. I never really liked it that much until I was an adult, and now I really enjoy non-fiction. But if you made me choose, I'd probably still say fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Physical book or ebook?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Physical, definitely.

JADE ARNOLD: Series or standalone?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, tricky one, but probably standalone.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, OK. Books that make you laugh or books that make you cry?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, can I say both?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Look, I would say both as well.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Depends what mood I'm in.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. [laughs] I like books that do both. They make you laugh and cry at the same time.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Well, thank you so much for that. That was a little bit of fun.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: That was fun.

JADE ARNOLD: So, Ashleigh, one of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. With that in mind, we like to do a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch.

Imagine, if you will, there's a student standing between the bookshelves in their school, or their local library, or in the bookshop in the B section, and they see your titles there on the bookshelves. And maybe there's a little PRC sticker on the spine of the book, and you've got to help them make the decision to take your book home.

Could you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'How to Sail to Somewhere', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, this is a tricky one. So, if the student was standing there, I would probably say to them if they liked a story that had adventure, a little bit of mystery, a lot of friendship, and a little bit of sadness to it, that they would probably enjoy 'How to Sail to Somewhere'.

JADE ARNOLD: I think that's a really good pitch. What type of reader do you think this book would appeal to?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Anyone who was a lot like me as a child, I think. I think out of all of the books I've written so far this one is probably the closest to what I would have devoured as a kid. I would have enjoyed the other ones as well, obviously, but this one I think is particularly what I really enjoyed.

So, I was a very inquisitive, big reader. I loved friendship stories. I loved stories that made me imagine different scenarios and things that I would probably never be in, but still kind of grounded in reality.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, the 2 main characters in the story, or the 2 main child characters in the story, go on an adventure to an island off the coast of this seaside town. And that is not somewhere I lived. It is not something that I would have done, but I would have loved being immersed in that adventure. So, I guess kids that are adventurous, but from a distance.

JADE ARNOLD: I love that. I think the thing that really stood out to me about it was that there is this adventure driving them and driving their growth, but so much of the novel is actually about the growth of those 2 characters and the friendship that slowly blooms between them. So, it's not just this happened and this happened, and then I have to keep going. It's this very heartfelt adventure that grows both of those characters, which is very lovely.

Obviously, as I'm talking about the book here, I obviously got my hands on an advance reader copy of the title. So, I wanted to ask some questions about 'How to Sail to Somewhere' before we talk about your other books, if that's OK.

This book is set in this sleepy little coastal town that becomes a tourist hotspot in summer, but it's never really identified where this town actually is. And it kind of feels like this could be any coastal town in Australia, or maybe even overseas. Despite this, the characters that fill this little town are what bring it to life and make it feel alive.

Was it a really deliberate choice to leave this town ambiguous, and was it inspired by anywhere that you have personally been?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Great question. And yes, so I did want to leave it ambiguous, because to me, just like you said, it could be any town anywhere in Australia or the world.

So, my dad is English, and I spent a lot of time as a child and then as an 18-year-old in the UK, visiting a lot of those coastal towns. So, for me, it's a little bit reminiscent of those UK seaside towns that my family spent a lot of time at my grandparents'.

But then, because I'm Australian and I've grown up here, I think that that's coming through quite a lot as well. I spent a lot of summers at the beach as a child, so I think all that influence has come into the story. And to me, it's not specifically anywhere, but somewhere--

JADE ARNOLD: Could be.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] No, it's great. I love that it's a nice little amalgamation of little coast-side towns all over the place. And it felt very alive.

Something that this book focuses a lot on is the deep loneliness that's caused by the absence of someone that we care really strongly about. We've got Bea, who feels isolated and alone in this tiny town, but her grief is slowly healed over time by Bea's mission to solve her uncle's puzzle. Why do you think it was important to showcase this journey for middle grade readers?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think kids have a really strong understanding of things that go on in the world, whether adults are acknowledging that or not. And I don't think that we should shy away from difficult topics with kids. They're really intuitive. Kids have a lot of big feelings, so showing kids in a safe space that these feelings are OK, and that they're normal, and that a lot of people go through really hard things, and that there can be light at the end of it, I think is really important.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and I'm sure that would resonate with a lot of young readers that maybe have lost someone in their life. And just seeing that that, over time, it does get easier, is a very important message to have. So, wonderful inclusion of that.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: There's this particularly poignant moment where Bea is trying to find something that her uncle hid, and it's meant to be connected to a memory that she and him hold together. But this becomes so frustrating for her, because almost every place in her house holds a memory with her uncle.

And as the reader, we get this really bittersweet moment where you see her frustration building that's being driven by his absence. But there's also this love and deep connection that's so apparent between Bea and her uncle. What was the inspiration for the relationship between Bea and Uncle Byron?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, that's a tough question, because I'm not really sure what the answer is. I think the characters just kind of appeared to me as an uncle and the niece. And I wanted to write a story sort of centred around grief through the eyes of a child who doesn't quite understand it.

And so, she's sort of abandoned by her parents because they're workaholics. They've kind of buried their heads in the sand, so she's left to deal with it on her own. So, yeah, I don't think I'm answering your question.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, no, that's so fine. Sometimes, it's always so interesting to ask authors where the inspiration comes from, because sometimes it's so clearly a personal event in their own lives, or someone that they've been directly inspired by. But sometimes, it's just this amalgamation of themes, or someone just pops into their head.

So, it's just so interesting, and I'm sure our listeners will find that interesting as well, about how differently authors will create these characters. But Uncle Byron just is this very larger-than-life character that even though he's not present in the book at the time, his spirit kind of lives on, just because he was this-- such an important character in Bea's life. So, yeah, exactly.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: It's really interesting to see how those types of characters form. The idea originally started as a picture book, but it was quite different. So, it was about a little girl whose uncle came to stay, but the uncle was the one that was grieving, and she couldn't understand why he wasn't having fun with her and doing all the things that she really wanted to do.

So, my agent didn't love that one, so I shelved it. And then, the characters kind of came back to me, and I thought, what if this was a middle grade story?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And then, instead of having the uncle be the grieving one, I wanted it to be told through the eyes of a child. Yeah, so it kind of flipped.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. So, the characters were already there and really wanted their story told, by the sounds of it.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: Cool. As you mentioned earlier, the other adults in this book provide this really stark contrast to fun-loving, adventurous Uncle Byron. These parents are physically present, but they're emotionally absent because they're workaholics, and they've just thrown themselves into their work.

And then you've got Arabella's father, who's caring and present, but he shuts down whenever she tries to ask about her mother who left several years ago. But by the end of the novel, they both undergo their own growth and change. Why did you choose to frame the parents in that way?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think it's kind of what I said before. I needed Bea to be left to her own devices, to try and muddle her way through this difficult time without having someone guide her through it. So, that was kind of a big part of her character journey.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And it also-- I think-- it's sort of been a long-standing thing, because having her parents be too busy for her every summer meant there was space for Byron to come.

JADE ARNOLD: And that's why he had such an important part in her life. Yeah. I do like that they had that little change at the end, where-- I shouldn't probably talk too much about the ending of a book in a podcast, should I? But there is a lovely change in their approach and their attitudes that really-- I love it when books, especially middle grade books, show children that parents can sometimes be wrong, and they can have growth as well. I think that's a really important message for kids, that sometimes parents are human. They make mistakes, too, and they're still growing as adults, just like we are. That was really lovely.

Let's come back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say that our young reader is now standing between the bookshelves, having just devoured 'How to Sail to Somewhere', and is after something that will scratch that same itch, or at least a similar one. What books would you suggest that they try next?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, that's tricky. I don't know how to answer this without sounding like I'm comparing myself to some great authors. There's a lot of amazing Australian middle grade. I think 'The Sideways Orbit of Evie Hart' which was on the shortlist last year is really beautiful-- really beautifully written.

I'm also a big fan of classics, like all the Robin Klein books that I read as a child. I met a kid recently who had just finished reading 'Hating Alison Ashley', and I was curious how that stood up after all these years. And she loved it.

JADE ARNOLD: It's a modern classic, isn't it?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, yeah, I absolutely love Robin Klein. Also, 'The Listmaker'-- I feel like maybe that's kind of a similar vein in that a child is struggling through something and struggling on their own. At least that's how I remember the book. I don't know for sure.

I also loved a lot of Judy Blume when I was growing up. But yeah, there's so much amazing Australian middle grade that's been published recently.

JADE ARNOLD: There really has. Those are some great suggestions. Thank you.

The next books I'd like to talk to you about are the 'Freddy Spectre, Fact Collector' series. There's 2 books in this series, 'Space Cadet' and 'Go for Gold', both of which feature on the 3 to 4 book list. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: This book is a book for a kid who might be preferencing non-fiction but is being encouraged to read fiction, or the other way around. So, they combine true facts with a sort of fast-paced plot.

I wrote them for kids who might preference one or the other, because, as I mentioned in the very beginning, when I was a kid, to me, non-fiction felt like homework. I have since learnt that it's not, so I wanted to show kids that non-fiction can be really interesting, and kids who prefer true stories to find that reading can be really fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I can definitely see the types of kids that gravitate to the 'Guinness Book of World Records', or just those big DK fact books, really loving the little fun facts that Freddie collects and gives us throughout the story. That's definitely a perfect recommendation there for your non-fiction-loving kids. But as you said, also the inverse for that as well.

Freddie is this really quirky, unique character that I think young readers will be really drawn to and has this insatiable desire for learning new things. What was the inspiration for Freddie's character?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, so Freddie, I don't know. I think he's kind of probably a mash-up of lots of different people in my life. I don't know if I was a particularly fact-collecting child. I was definitely more into fiction and creative stories. I once had to do an assignment about parachutes, and my answer to why parachutes fly is that they're magic. So--

[laughter]

I definitely don't think Freddie's based on me as a child. But as I've grown older, I have loved collecting facts and information. So, it may be a little bit of my adult personality. But yeah, him as a child, I think probably just an amalgamation of lots of people I've known.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I love that. I can see Freddie in so many students that I've taught, but also my nephews in particular, who just love sharing little facts with me. So, once they're a little bit older, because they're a bit too young to read by themselves, but I can see them diving into this and adding to the list of telling their auntie all the things that she didn't know. I can't wait. It sounds good.

There's a lot of fun facts in this book, as we've mentioned. How did you find that balance between including educational content and keeping the plot moving and the story interesting for younger readers?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Great question. So, in terms of the facts, my self-imposed brief for those was things that were fun, unique and a bit unusual. I wanted facts that someone would say to someone else, 'Oh, did you know?' because it was so interesting.

And I'm not a particularly sporty person, so I felt like I was a really good benchmark. And also, the thought of going into space terrifies me. So--

[laughter]

Another good benchmark, I felt like if I find the facts in the sports book and the space book interesting, then surely other people will as well. But my agent's husband is really sporty, and when she was reading it, she kept reading facts out to him, and he thought they were interesting. So, I feel like we've got--

JADE ARNOLD: You've got both spectrums there.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah. And then, yeah, in terms of the plot, I wanted that to be relatable to things that would happen in a real child's life and to keep it moving as quickly as possible. And I themed each chapter around a subtopic, so I think-- trying to remember-- there's a star chapter maybe. And I think that I've kind of tied the plot slightly to that, but--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's a really good way of balancing it. Let's move on now to your next series for middle grade readers, the 'Solomon Macaroni' series. There's also 2 books in this series, 'Solomon Macaroni and the Cousin Catastrophe' and 'Solomon Macaroni and the Vampire Vacation', both of which are also on the 5 to 6 book list. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: OK, so I would-- if I was standing in front of a child in a library, I would tell them that if they wanted something funny with a tiny touch of spooky, not very scary, that they might enjoy 'Solomon Macaroni'. So, he is a vampire, but he does not possess any of the powers that we know vampires to have, other than the ability to live a really long time. So, he's very polite, very friendly. He loves eating garlic and chocolate. So, yeah, he's a twisted version of a vampire.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I really loved that. It was very entertaining. Obviously, when people think of vampires in fiction, they don't tend to associate it with middle grade novels, or with being friendly or polite, or eating tofu and garlic. What inspired you to write a story around vampires like this for this series?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Well, actually, Solomon was a character that I came up with when I was about 8 or 9, and he's just stuck in my head all this time, waiting and waiting for me to write a story about him again. And so, when it came to writing the story, I kind of had this problem, because I didn't see him as a traditional vampire. So, I kind of rewrote the world around him and made it a place where magic doesn't exist-- or does it?-- to make it make sense that Solomon was a vampire and not just a regular boy.

JADE ARNOLD: Right, OK. That's really interesting. I love that. Last, but certainly not least, I'd like to talk about your numerous picture books. You've worked with illustrator Martina Heiduczek with 6 books now-- 'What Do You Call Your Grandpa?', 'What Do You Call Your Grandma?', 'What Do You Call Your Dad?', 'What Do You Celebrate?', 'How Do You Say I Love You?', and 'How Do You Say Hello?'. All of these titles feature on the K to 2 book lists. Could you give us your pitch for these books and tell us a bit what they're about?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, of course. So, I kind of like to break it down into 'What do you call?' 'What do you do?' and 'How do you say?' So, the 'What do you call?' books are about families around the world, the different names we call our grandparents, and currently our dads. But in 2026, we'll also have mums in that list.

So, that was inspired by me trying to find a book for my dad for his first Father's Day as a grandfather. And all I could find were Granddad or Grandpa, but he doesn't go by those names. So, I thought about all the kids in Australia that don't use those names, whether it's a nickname or a cultural name. So, I wanted to create this book for every kid and their grandparents, no matter what they're called.

And then 'What Do You Do to Celebrate?', that's about end-of-year celebrations, so everything kind of starting with Hanukkah and ending with Lunar New Year, so all those different celebrations that take place around the world, the end of the year, including Christmas and New Year's.

And 'How do you say?' That's phrases around the world. So, similar concept, just looking at different families and friends and people around the world, basically.

JADE ARNOLD: I'd normally ask what type of readers you would recommend this to, but I honestly think these books are both fantastic and important books for all young readers to be exposed to. I think they're fantastic to have in a classroom as a read-aloud, and just a fantastic example of Australian multiculturalism.

But I would like to ask, what type of reader were you thinking of when writing these books, or is it mostly drawn from that initial desire to have some connection with your own family?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, I don't think I had a particular reader in mind, just anyone with a grandparent. Because that's where the very first ideas were, the 2 grandparent stories, so anyone with a grandparent who they didn't necessarily call Grandma or Grandpa, although those are also included. So, yeah, I guess it was just sort of families that use different names for their grandparents is really where the initial idea started.

JADE ARNOLD: And then it just steamrolled from there and kept going. That's awesome. I think that it can be this assumption that picture books are easy to write, because they're so much shorter than a novel, but I imagine that that is not actually the case. And, in fact, the authors that I've spoken to often tell me about how hard it can be writing for picture books. And for these ones in particular, I imagine a lot of research went into them. Can you tell us a bit about how different the writing process is for a picture book, and what it's like working with an illustrator to bring the story to life?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, of course. So, with these particular ones, they're not plot-based, so each double-page spread is really its own little story. So, yeah, I sort of imposed a structure on myself for these stories where it's an AABB rhyming structure. And the last word of the fourth line is the foreign word or phrase, so that the last word of the third line rhymes with that word to guide the reader for the pronunciation.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's really clever, but also tricky, I imagine.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, it got tricky with the writing process, especially with 'How Do You Say I Love You?' because that is a phrase rather than just one word. So, I needed to find short versions of that in other languages so that it worked with the meter and also with the rhyme. So, it did get very challenging.

So, with the dad book especially and the mum book, a lot of different languages overlap, and they use the same words, so finding enough to fill the book got challenging. But yeah, so my process was to do a lot of research around languages, and then I tried to make sure I was representing as many different types of families and family activities as possible. So, that's how I structured those. So, yeah, completely different than writing a narrative-style picture book or a middle grade novel.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and a lot of work.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Completely different. Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: And was there a lot of interaction between you and the illustrator, or was it a case of that being given to the Illustrator, then them giving it back to you with their ideas, and how does that process work?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: In my manuscript, I would just have a one-liner that explained what I was imagining to happen in that scene. So, for example, there's a grandma riding a seesaw, which is in the text, so that was kind of prescriptive for Martina. But my illustration direction just would have been 'grandma and kid playing at the park', and then she ran with it from there.

So, I didn't see anything until she had drawn the rough illustrations, what they call the rough, so the black and white. And then I'm given an opportunity to provide feedback. But Martina is amazing, so I've never had to say.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that's great.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I've never had to say, I don't like that at all. And then I see them again when they're finished in colour. So, it's a completely separate collaboration.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, OK, there you go. That's really interesting. For the young readers who really enjoyed these books, or, perhaps, the parents or the teachers who read them to the young readers in their lives and loved them, what other picture books do you think they should try?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, there's a lot, I guess, of multicultural picture books. One that I particularly love is 'Lunch at 10 Pomegranate Street'. Do you know that one?

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, yes.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And 'A Year in Fleurville', which is kind of--

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, I'm not familiar with that.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, that's the follow-up.

JADE ARNOLD: Right.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, they're kind of multicultural, foodie-based books, and they're so beautifully illustrated.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, they're really beautiful, beautifully illustrated. I love those ones, and my kids love those ones.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. Well, we'll put those books and the authors in the show notes for any of our listeners to check out.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: You've written another picture book, 'Dinosaur in My Pocket', with Blithe Fielden, and this book is also on the K to 2 book list. Could you give us your final 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this book?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: This picture book is completely different to my other picture books-- narrative-based, for starters. So, it is about a little boy who loves dinosaurs and miniatures more than anything in the world. And when he goes on a school excursion to a museum and sees a miniature triceratops in the gift shop, he can't help himself, and he takes the dinosaur. So, as his guilt grows, so does the dinosaur, until he can no longer hide either. And then he has an opportunity to do the right thing.

So, I think this book is for any kid who might have made a mistake or has been tempted to make a mistake. It's not supposed to be a lessons book necessarily, but it does show that if we do make a mistake, there is a way to fix it always.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, it was lovely. And the highlight of the book for me was how the parents, when they found out that James had taken the dinosaur, they didn't yell at him. They didn't punish him, but they did make it very clear that they're disappointed. But then they guided him and supported him to be accountable for his actions and take steps to rectify his mistakes.

Why did you choose to present the parents' actions in this way?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I guess it's just more of an effective approach to help a kid learn why what they've done is wrong and how to fix it.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, I think teaching kids that mistakes happen, mistakes can be fixed, is a really valuable lesson.

JADE ARNOLD: And having the parents there to show them that process and encourage them on that path. Because I know, having dealt with a lot of kids that age, it's often there's that fear of being wrong. And they'll double down and say, 'No, I didn't, no, I didn't, no, I didn't.' Whereas if you can show them this approach, they're much more likely to come out and say, 'OK, well, yeah, I did, but now we can fix it.'

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Exactly.

JADE ARNOLD: Which is lovely and a very important message, I think, for young readers.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: And I do think guilt stays with you if you don't fix a mistake. Even all these years later, when my little sister got blamed for something I broke, I still feel bad about it. So, coming clean and fixing your mistakes is the only way to get rid of those bad feelings.

JADE ARNOLD: I love that. I know you're fresh off releasing your latest books, but are there any new titles that you're currently working on, if you're allowed to share them with us, other than 'What Do You Call Your Mum?'

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yes. So, I'm always working on something, because I always have a million ideas in my head. I've got an idea for a middle grade that is kind of in the same vein as 'How to Sail to Somewhere', so a sort of friendship, adventure-based story, but that's very early stages.

I've also got a picture book coming out later in the year called 'Hedgehog or Echidna?' which is about animals that look similar but are different.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that's exciting.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, that one's really fun. That's a rhyming story, different again. I feel like I say that all the time. And then, yeah, so I've just always got-- I've got a bunch of picture book manuscripts that I'm tinkering away at, and other ideas in my head that I'm trying to solve.

JADE ARNOLD: Awesome. And I love the fact that you are working on yet another, I guess, non-fiction-based picture book, when you yourself weren't much of a non-fiction reader as a kid. I love that. I love how you're making an effort to make that really approachable for young readers who would have been just like you at that age.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: That's awesome, really excited to read those when those come out.

As an author, I feel it's pretty safe to assume that you think spending time reading for leisure is really important. Do you have any words of wisdom you'd like to share with teacher librarians or classroom teachers or parents who are trying to nurture a love of reading in their students or children?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think I'm going to say what almost everyone says, and that is to let kids read what appeals to them. So, if reading is fun, then kids are going to do it. So, forcing them to read things that they hate is not going to encourage a love of reading.

So, I know a lot of people feel like graphic novels aren't necessarily reading, but they absolutely are. So, yeah, whatever your kid or your students want to read, let them read them.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And it can be a little bit hard sometimes, if you've got a reader who is a reluctant reader, for them to find that. But I really would always say to them, it's kind of like picking your favourite ice cream flavour at the ice cream store. You've got to go through that kind of socially anxious moment of, 'Oh, can I try this? Oh, I didn't like that. Can I try this? Oh, I didn't like that.' And you have to keep trying. But if you keep trying, eventually you will find something that's out there.

And yeah, I love graphic novels in particular, or verse novels, for that exact point. I think that's a message that bears repeating as many times as we absolutely can.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Exactly. And I think this is a bit of a self-serving answer, but getting kids to engage with authors as much as possible I think does make a difference. Back in my book publicist days, when I took an author once to a school talk, and then a following school talk the next day, where one of the teachers at that school had had a kid at the other school. And she said, 'Before you came to speak to him, he did not want to touch your books, and then after, he's devoured' this author's 'books that night'.

So, having that interaction with the author, and learning that there's a real person behind a book and that-- real ideas behind a book, that can really make a difference to a kid's level of engagement.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. And just for that student to then be able to sit there, and read the book, and think, 'Oh, I met that person,' and here's a hint of their humour, or a hint of their personality in this story, just definitely really deepens that connection and can create some really special memories and some really positive reading experiences.

On that note, for any teachers out there who would be interested in booking you for an author visit, how can these schools book you, and what can they expect from you?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, yeah, of course I love visiting schools. It's actually one of my favourite parts of being a children's author. I love coming and speaking to kids. Kids have the best ideas, and the best questions, and amazing imaginations.

So, I have 2 speakers agents, Lamont Authors and Creative Kids Tales. So, they can feel free to book through either of those or contact me directly through my website. That's an option, too.

I kind of changed my talks a lot, so they could expect anything really. But I do like to talk a lot about how reading and writing as a child turned me into an author today, where my ideas come from. Sometimes I talk a lot about the generation of ideas, how to find ideas, what to do when you have a good idea, characters, creating characters, and, yeah, the foundations, the basics of writing and creative storytelling. I try to keep things as fun and interactive as possible.

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds amazing. I also feel like you would have some good answers for this one. Can you recommend any titles that you think our listeners need to know about, or would make fantastic additions to a school library collection?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: So, if we're talking about picture books, 2 of my favourites in recent years that I've read a lot to my children are 'Farmhouse' by Sophie Blackall. I'm obsessed with that book. It is so clever and so special. We've read that book hundreds of times.

And I also really love 'The Snail and the Whale' by Julia Donaldson. I think she can do no wrong, and that's one of my favourites of hers. So, these books are probably already on all bookshelves in schools.

JADE ARNOLD: But just in case now.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yeah, just in case.

JADE ARNOLD: Are there any middle grade titles that really come to mind as being essential library books?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: I think the ones I said before, so 'Hating Alison Ashley', that should stay on shelves for sure, and 'The Sideways Orbit of Evie Hart' is amazing, too.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, awesome. And what are you currently reading now, or what are you excited to dive into next?

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Oh, such a good question. My TBR, as they call it, 'To be read' pile is enormous. So, I'm reading an adult novel at the moment, but I also just started 'The Six Summers of Tash and Leopold'.

JADE ARNOLD: You're in for a treat.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Yes, which I'm enjoying as well.

JADE ARNOLD: We interviewed Danielle Binks for episode 3 of this podcast and spoke about that, so our listeners would be very familiar with that. But you're in for an absolute treat with that one. Enjoy.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you. I'm excited.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Ashleigh. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your wonderful books. And I'm sure that there are many teacher librarians out there excited to share your books with their students as they work to complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: Thank you so much.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you.

ASHLEIGH BARTON: It was so nice chatting to you. I had a really great time.

JADE ARNOLD: Me, too.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 5 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by children's author Nathan Luff. Nathan is the author of the junior fiction series 'The Nerd Herd' and 'Family Disasters' as well as standalone titles 'Chicken Stu', 'Bad Grammar: A School for Gentlemen' and his latest release, 'Jungle Escape'. Nathan is also a playwright, teaches music, drama and writing in primary schools and is the children and young adult manager for the Sydney Writers' Festival.

Nathan, thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

NATHAN LUFF: I'm so well. Thanks for having me.

JADE ARNOLD: It's no problems. It's very exciting to have you here. So, one of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. So, with that in mind, we like to do a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch to help teacher librarians making recommendations for their students.

So, imagine, if you will, a student is standing between the bookshelves in their school or their local library or their book shop, and they're in the L section, and they see your title there on the shelves. Maybe it's got the PRC sticker on the spine, and you've got to help them make the decision to take your book home.

So, with that in mind, can you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'Jungle Escape'?

NATHAN LUFF: Sure, my pleasure. I just want to say a little quick something, which is that all of my books, for some reason, are inspired by a real location. So, I've been in a place, and often that place has made me think, 'Oh, my gosh, I really have to set a story there.

So, I want to start by saying that with 'Jungle Escape', I was in the Daintree Rainforest in far North Queensland, and I got out of the car. And it's the most pristine, beautiful place. And I thought, 'Wow, this is paradise. I've found paradise.' And then everything tried to kill me.

[laughter]

The plants, the animals, everything is deadly up there. And so, I thought, 'There has to be a story set there.'

So, it's a story of 4 spoilt, pampered kids who, for different reasons, get sent to this holiday camp. It's like a holiday resort, really. So, they're sent there without their parents. And they think they're going to this wonderful resort called Jungle Escape, and they'll have an amazing time.

But when they get there, it's this rundown, dilapidated building. And this woman, Sal, has bought this building with the plan of building it again and reopening it. But the kids unknowingly have signed up to this program that they're going to be the hired help to bring it back to.

They've never lifted a finger before in their lives, and now they're going to have to do a lot of that or escape. So, yeah, as I mentioned, everything wants to kill you. So, that's when the hilarity and the action ensues.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds like so much fun. It sounds like a mix of the Fyre Festival and 'Holes'.

NATHAN LUFF: Yes, yes.

JADE ARNOLD: I've actually got a copy of the book here that's just come into our office, so we're very excited to read it, and hopefully, it'll make its way onto the PRC book lists in the future. But I might just read the blurb if that's OK with you.

NATHAN LUFF: Yes, go for it.

JADE ARNOLD: For our listeners. It says here at the top with a little note. 'Dear Evolution. If the bird you have made is too big to fly, it is too big-- full stop! Yours, Branson Hawthorne Esquire'.

And then it goes on to say, 'When Branson's parents announce a ski trip to Aspen, he's thrilled-- until he learns he won't be going with them. Instead, Branson is being sent to an exclusive retreat in the Daintree Rainforest that promises poolside luxury, cuisine classes and lessons in interior decoration. Not his idea of a holiday.

But, when the kids arrive at the resort, Branson and the others learn that they've been duped! The building is in ruins, the bathroom's covered in slime, and the pool is empty. It turns out the owners have lured the kids to Jungle Escape to work as free labour to restore the resort.

Branson and his new friends need to find a way out of this hell hole and the Daintree Rainforest. Will they be able to escape this jungle, or will they end up as cassowary-- or crocodile-- lunch?'

Sounds like so much fun. Very excited to read that one.

So, what type of reader do you think 'Jungle Escape' would appeal to, and for students who devour it and are left wanting more, what would you suggest they read next?

NATHAN LUFF: I think 'Jungle Escape' is like most of my books. It's fast-paced, there's a lot of adventure and excitement there, but there are also laughs along the way. So, kids who like a good adventure but also like to laugh at some outlandish characters, then this is for them.

There's also-- I like books about kids who have to solve problems for themselves. So, often I find ways of removing the parents or adults from the story.

JADE ARNOLD: So, sending them on to a camp where the parents are off?

NATHAN LUFF: Exactly. So, kids who like those sorts of stories as well. I think in terms of similar type of books out there, George Ivanoff writes a similar tone, I think, books like 'Monster Island'. But even Tristan Bancks, in terms of-- he wrote a lot of comedy to start with, and now his books are a little bit more serious but still have that fast-paced action. And Nat Amoore is another one who kind of balances that adventure, action and comedy.

JADE ARNOLD: Like the 'Shower Land' series?

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, those are some really great recommendations. For our next 'between the bookshelves' pitch, let's chat about the 'Family Disasters' series. There's 3 books in this series. There's 'Crash Landing', 'Storm Warning' and 'Road Rage', and they feature on the 3 to 4 PRC book list. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for it and tell us what type of reader you think would enjoy it?

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah, sure. And I'm going to start again just by the inspiration for this because I was on an island called Stromboli, which is off Sicily, and it's a volcanic island, an active volcanic island. And you can stay on the island, which I did. And as you climb the island, there are signs saying if there's an eruption, head for the ocean. I thought, 'Ooh, scary.'

And as you head down toward the ocean, there are signs saying if there is a tsunami, head for the peak. And of course, what goes through your mind is, 'What happens if both these things happen at the same time?' So, terribly exciting, but also a scary place to set a story. So, it sat with me for years and years before I found the story to fit it.

So, 'Family Disasters', the series, is about Jakob and his parents, who are the most embarrassing parents that you've ever met. They just-- you shouldn't be in public with them because things will go wrong. So, they go on a holiday, and every holiday they have, and every book coincides with a different natural disaster as well. So, we've got-- in the first book, they are stuck on the volcanic island that, of course, erupts.

In the second book, they're on a cruise ship during a cyclone. And then the third book is a road trip story, but the roads are all closed because of flooding, so they kind of have to take a really circuitous route to get home.

JADE ARNOLD: It sounds great. 'Family Disasters' perfectly captures that feeling of being a little bit of an outsider. So, as you've said, Jakob isn't really part of the 'in crowd' at school, and he often ends up in situations beyond his control, like being glitter bombed. And these situations tend to make him this magnet for laughter at his expense.

He's also hyper aware of every cringy transgression his parents make, and I know it had me suffering from some serious second-hand embarrassment throughout the story. Clearly, Jakob's desire to avoid these situations, or at least try and recover from them and reinstate his status or reputation, leads him to even further strife.

What was the inspiration for this, and are these drawn from some personal experiences or are you just really good at imagining the worst-case scenario for any possible situation?

NATHAN LUFF: It's definitely both.

[laughter]

So, there is a lot of real life in this book. But interestingly, I always thought when I write and because it's first-person narrative. So, I always-- you know, I'm in the mind of 'Jakob', I think 'I'm like Jakob,' or 'Jakob was like me' when I was that age.

Yet when I was-- started to talk about the book, I've got a son who is now 11. And he kept saying, 'Oh, the mum and dad in the book, that's you and Mum.'

[laughter]

I said, 'What? What are you talking about?'

JADE ARNOLD: Did it hurt?

NATHAN LUFF: It did. It did a lot. Until he gave me specific examples, and I thought, 'Oh, he's right.'

[laughter]

So, I'm kind of across multiple characters, as is my wife. So, yeah, we are kind of the more embarrassing ones, sadly.

But yeah, so there's a lot of things like, for example, when we go on holidays, I'm quite frugal. So, that idea of filling up your pockets with all of the breakfast buffet but also being so-- because I'm so against breaking rules that I do it in a way that I think is really subtle. But of course, I'm making everyone look at me because I'm looking about the room like a mad person. So, things like that. I'm always trying to save money, whereas my wife is much more, 'Let's just go and do crazy things,' and you end up in places you shouldn't be. Things like that.

There's also a scene where a family plays a board game because board games are supposed to bring families together, but my experience is often they end in screaming and tears. And so that particular scene is pretty much just me verbatim writing what happened when I played a board game with my in-laws.

[laughter]

It was-- yeah, it was hilarious. So, I use a lot of things from real life, absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: I think very particular board games are very good at destroying friendships. Monopoly being top of that list, I think.

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah, absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. [laughs] On that note, what is your favourite situation Jakob finds himself in, and do any of the situations you've made make you cringe to think about?

NATHAN LUFF: Yes. So, one of my favourite things across the series is I really like wardrobe malfunction. It makes me funny when I see it in real life. And so, I do it to Jakob all the time. So, in the first book, when they crash-land, they lose all of their luggage.

So, from that day on, and because the books all follow on right after each other, he never has his clothes back. So, it's always, every book, it's the fun of trying to work out 'what is he going to wear this time' and 'how is Chris Kennett,' who's the illustrator, 'how is he going to then draw that and get-- ?'

So, I love a wardrobe malfunction, and one of my favourite ones is when he has to get new swimmers from the lost property on the cruise ship. Of course, they're way too big. After going down the slide, he realises he's no longer wearing them in the pool. And so, things like that, because I often have dreams where things like that happen, and it's just the worst.

If you're in the situation, it's terrible. But for other people, it's funny. And so, I guess that's kind of where this book sits. Horrible if you're in it, but observing--

JADE ARNOLD: Funny for everyone else?

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah. I had a wardrobe malfunction, which kind of inspired it as well, as a teacher, which is the worst because you're surrounded by kids. And so, it was early on in the day, and I bent over to pick something up, and the whole back of my pants split.

And as a teacher, you can't-- it's not so you can just say, 'Look, I'm just going to go out to the shops and get some new pants.' You're there for the day. There's no one to cover you.

JADE ARNOLD: You're stuck, yeah.

NATHAN LUFF: So, it was a whole day of just kind of keeping my back to the wall and walking along in a strange way. People just thought--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, not being able to write on the board, and you just act as this hyperaware but seemingly crazy individual who can't turn around to write on the board.

NATHAN LUFF: Absolutely. That was me. So, these things do happen, and they're a gift as well as a curse.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes. Well, I'm glad that you can turn those horrific experiences into something funny for everyone else.

Something I think you've captured really well in this otherwise very silly, rollicking adventure is this sense of how kids outgrow certain stages much before their parents are willing to let go of it. In 'Crash Landing', Jakob's parents reminisce on one of those stages, saying, 'I miss those days. You loved us so much and you weren't afraid to express it, unlike now.' Is this something that you see with the students you've taught over the years, or your own children?

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah, both. So, definitely as a teacher first, it was because I was a RFF teacher teaching music and drama. So, I would teach from Kindy through to Year 6. And you see that change, even through a year like the Year 6 students at the start of the year compared to the end. And it would break my heart every year because they go through that awkward stage, and you see them approach it.

And now with my own son, he's now getting to that age, and it's just different. And it's part of growing up. And as a parent, you have to let go. But as an author, of course, this stuff makes its way into your work as well. Yeah, because there's an innocence that they lose, which is sad as well.

JADE ARNOLD: And really trying to figure out who they are and who they, as they grow, who they are changes. And so, it's learning to, I guess, love the child, regardless of what stage they're at, but also try and guide them down the right path.

NATHAN LUFF: Absolutely. And as they gain that independence and their own voice, there's also a joy in them discovering that. You've got to remember those things as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, of course. That's so lovely. Before we move on to your next series, let's come back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say that our young reader has now devoured the entire 'Family Disasters' series and they're on the hunt for their next read. What would you recommend they try next?

NATHAN LUFF: I think in terms of that series, you'll be well, well met to read Tim Harris's-- all of Tim Harris's books, really. But 'Mr Bambuckle's Remarkables' would be one. I think, again, that similar humour and fast-paced storytelling.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, awesome. That's a great recommendation. Your other series is 'The Nerd Herd'. This series has 5 titles-- 'The Nerd Herd', 'Raging Wool', 'Outfoxed', 'Pig Out' and 'Kitty Litter', all of which feature on the 3 to 4 book list. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this series and tell us what type of reader would enjoy it?

NATHAN LUFF: I'm going to start again with that moment of inspiration this time. So, I actually grew up on a farm and this is a lot of farm animals. But the inspiration for this was I was in a city, I was in Melbourne, and I visited a petting zoo. And at this petting zoo there was a barn with a fire, a really cosy fire. And some of the animals were there around it, just having a wonderful time. And I thought, 'What sort of fancy petting zoo is this?'

Now, our animals never had fancy things like barns with fires. So, that was kind of the inspiration that I was going to tell this story set at a petting zoo. And so, the 3 main characters, there's Baarnabus, who is a lamb, there's Billy the Kid, who is a goat, and there's a llama called Shaama Llama Ding Dong.

And they really want to be in that barn with the fire. But there are all these other bigger animals who don't let them, who pick on them all the time. So, you've got a large pig called Kevin Bacon. You've got this big bull called T-Bone. There's a cat whose real name is Fat Cat, but she finds that offensive, so she calls herself Plus-sized Puss, and a fox as well that comes in. So, all these big animals are picking on them.

And so, these 3 lovely soft animals get together and say, 'Hey, we need to stand up for ourselves.' And there's strength in numbers. So, they form a gang, which is the Nerd Herd, and they start trying to establish a reputation as animals not to be messed with. They end up being the animals that will fix any problem. And these bigger animals eventually do have to come to them when they need help with things.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. That's so lovely. And I can tell you had a lot of fun naming all of your characters.

NATHAN LUFF: I did.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: So, you've got this wild assortment of characters like you just mentioned. You've got Barny the Lamb, who's a bit of a pun fiend, and you've got Shaama, the hoarding llama, and Billy the Goat, who is more obsessed with his perfect coat and will sacrifice his vision to look good. Did you draw any characteristics from yourself or people that you know, and are you a bit of a pun fiend yourself?

NATHAN LUFF: I'm always pulling from my own personality, but also those around me. I definitely think Barny and Shaama have elements of me. Billy the kid does not. I do not have my fancy angora coat, and I do not care much about appearances, but I certainly know people who do.

But I would say that with all of my character-- all of my main characters in my books are drawn from who I am fundamentally, which is-- I grew up as one of 5 boys. And I was the smallest of the 5, even though I was the second oldest, and I was the sort of kid that did get picked on a bit because I was so small. I was into things that other kids weren't necessarily into. And some of my brothers were quite ferocious and scary.

So, I write from a place of those-- of feeling powerless and what that means and how you find that inner strength to stand up to those things. And you'll find it in all of my books. Even if I don't sit myself down to write that story, it ends up being one of those stories, and you just tell it in lots of different ways. And it's just-- it's who I am. It's part of my fabric. So, this story is about that as well. And so, I definitely am-- Barny is me, a version of me.

JADE ARNOLD: That took such a serious turn. But I love that. I really do.

NATHAN LUFF: This is the interesting thing about, well, certainly my work, but a lot of work for kids is that it can be really fun and light and lots of jokes along the way, but they can also be really serious stories that we're talking about underneath. And that's the place I like to sit, because stories are about characters and relationships, and so that's where things get real.

JADE ARNOLD: I love that, though. I'm sure that there's a lot of students out there who will really appreciate that real kind of message that you've got under there of the underdog, or the one that you wouldn't normally assume to be the main character taking action and driving the narrative and having a bit of fun and a lot of chaos along the way.

Overall, 'The Nerd Herd' is pretty lighthearted, as we've discussed. There's lots of slapstick humour and a lot of laugh-out-loud moments. But as you were touching on before, there's these 3 very meek and mild farmyard animals that are trying their best to stand up to the constant bullying that they face. And our main character, Barnaby the Lamb, displays a lot of resilience, too, as his plans often go completely out of whack.

Why did you decide to include this in 'The Nerd Herd', and do you think it's an important message for young readers?

NATHAN LUFF: Absolutely. I think that resilience is something that I'm seeing a lot of young people lacking these days. I think that we-- and as a parent, I notice and have to pull myself back from doing too much, of trying to give space for kids to discover their own solutions to problems and also to fail. We're so adverse to seeing people fail. It's a horrible thing to go through it, but you kind of do. You learn through your mistakes.

So, this is a story about that as well, of-- the structure is very simple, and all 5 books have that same structure, which there are a couple of really big failures before they finally get to the solution that works. So, yeah, I think that's something that we should all be working towards, being more resilient.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. This is the second series that you've worked on with the illustrator, Chris Kennett. What's the process of working alongside an illustrator for a novel, and how does it influence the way that you write?

NATHAN LUFF: It's interesting, because often the illustrator and the author don't collaborate or talk during it, and certainly at the start of a series. So, I didn't even know-- the first time I spoke with Chris was at our launch for the first 'Nerd Herd'. It's that thing because it's like a marriage that the publisher makes, and so, if they've done their job well, then the book emerges beautifully, which it did. We've both got very similar senses of humour.

But then, moving on from book 2, now I know what his style is like. You do start to write with that in mind. And 'Family Disasters', while it was a different style of illustration, I still know Chris's sense of humour, and I write in a very visual way. My training is in scriptwriting and playwriting.

So, what I love about it is you're setting up these visual gags, and then Chris will come along-- essentially, it's like a punchline. He'll deliver that thing. And I always know when I see it it's going to be perfect. He's going to just nail that.

And so, yeah, I'm also trying to amuse myself by coming up with things that are difficult for Chris to draw, to say, 'Huh, let's see if he can do this one.'

[laughter]

And only occasionally do I get notes back saying, 'Too hard'.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's fair.

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah, it's super fun. And because, as an author, when there are no illustrations, you're kind of there on your own all the time. So, to be able to share that creation is a nice thing as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's awesome. Let's return to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. So, for a young reader who has read and really enjoyed the entire 'Nerd Herd' series, what are some of the titles that you think they should try next?

NATHAN LUFF: There's so much amazing illustrated junior fiction at the moment, I wouldn't even know where to start. But I am going to say Kate and Jol Temple have a couple of really great series that I think they'd enjoy. So, the 'Frog Squad' or the 'Underdog' series as well would be a place to start there.

JADE ARNOLD: Both fantastic. I love the 'Frog Squad', another book with lots of puns. Maybe that's a reflection on me, but I think there's a lot of kids out there that really love that wordplay, especially as they're getting to that age where they're starting to really appreciate how they work and trying their own.

In addition to being a children's author, you're also the children and young adults manager for the Sydney Writers' Festival. Can you tell us a little bit about what that role entails?

NATHAN LUFF: Yes. So, we actually have quite a big program for kids and young adults where primary schools and secondary schools can come and hear authors talk. We have a big family day, which is kind of from little kids all the way up to the end of primary school. We have our all-day YA day, and we even have a day for upper secondary for kids who are doing HSC. So, my job is to program all of that, to pick all of the authors who are going to be presenting as part of that program.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds like a massive job. So, for any teachers out there listening who've never attended the Sydney Writers' Festival Primary or Secondary Schools Day before, can you tell us a little bit about these programs and what students get out of them?

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah. So, the days we are at various venues across Sydney, and there's usually 4 or more sessions that run throughout the day. So, you come along. You get to see all 4 sessions.

And so, we do a range of genres and people from different backgrounds to give you a real mix. So, hopefully there will be a speaker that will engage every kid that you bring along. So, you get to hear these great-- sometimes they're conversations about how they created their book, sometimes they're writing tips. So, it is a mix as well as to what they will present.

There's a chance to meet the authors at the bookshop and get books signed from them as well. And ask those personal questions that you're too shy to ask when they're on stage. So, it's just a day of celebrating literature.

And in the Primary School Days, especially, it's not just sitting and listening to someone talk for the whole day. There are activities, and we try to get speakers who are just really engaging and get kids so excited about books.

For me, that's the joy of what I do, is to try to remind people, reading is great. It is exciting because people don't see it as exciting. And also in school, it's that thing of, oh, it's schoolwork. They associate it with something that's boring. It doesn't have to be. And if you get the right-- and because authors are storytellers, so if you get the right storytellers on stage telling those stories, seeing the kids engage with that and then going and, you know, buy books. It's a wonderful day.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, awesome. The amount of times that I have been backstage at the Sydney Writers' Festival, and we've heard, like, the screams and cheers and laughter coming from that. The energy is insane. And just seeing the students come out of it with a smile on their face, often books in their hand. It's definitely a fantastic day if you're looking at trying to reinvigorate or spark a love of reading in your students.

I also noticed that the senior-focused Student Sessions are back this year. Can you tell us about these?

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah, so we call these Student Sessions. So, it's different from our Secondary School Days in that they're targeted for mostly for HSC English students. So, we have a number of sessions that are focused on specific texts that are on the syllabus. And then there is also a number that are focused on the craft of writing. So, for example, this year, there'll be a short story one, there'll be a poetry one, and we'll also have a Shakespeare, sort of a spotlight on Shakespeare session as well.

So, each year these sessions are with really top-quality authors, that sometimes then it's not necessarily young adult authors. It could be drawn from the adult program of Sydney Writers' Festival, but people with great experience to talk to the students about what they do. And we have high school teachers moderate most of the sessions as well, so that the kids who come along, it's really targeted on what they need to learn for going into that, those HSC exams and all that sort of stuff. Lots of fun.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds amazing. Another initiative that's run by the Sydney Writers' Festival is Russ the Story Bus. Can you tell us a bit about Russ and who can apply to have it visit their school?

NATHAN LUFF: Russ the Story Bus is amazing. So, Russ is a bus. And instead of having seats inside him, he's all decked out, and he has shelves. And so, he's full of books. And Russ travels all around. Well, he travels around regional NSW and Western Sydney.

At the moment, we're trying to get a new bus, basically because Russ is getting a little bit old. So, at the moment, he is limited to Western Sydney, but we're hoping to maybe even get a fleet of Russes. That would be amazing.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, that would be awesome.

NATHAN LUFF: And then we can get out further. But what Russ does is he visits schools in lower socio-economic areas. He delivers free author talks for these schools. And then every student who comes along to the author talk then gets to go on the bus and pick a book that they get to take away for free.

And there are kids-- and this happens every year, kids who are really quite emotional because it is the first book they've ever owned in their lives. And the way that they treat that, and the stories we hear afterwards of them bringing it to school and just not wanting to let this book go.

So, there's lots with how we run Russ, but there's also, there are book specialists on the bus to try to connect the reader with the right book as well. So, it is a special moment. They're not just taking some--

JADE ARNOLD: A random book. The first one that they've seen, and the cover looks nice, so we'll go with this one.

NATHAN LUFF: Exactly, exactly. And often it is the book from the author who has presented because they have connected with them. So, we try to get authors who will really engage with that area where we're going. But it's just the most beautiful program, and we love doing it.

And so, schools who do want to be involved, you do need to have an ICSEA value of under 1,000. And you can register your interest on our website, which is swf.org.au. There should be a form there where you can just put in your details, and then fingers crossed-- we can't get to every school, but we get to as many as we can.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, amazing. So, for the other programs for schools in the Sydney metro area, where can teachers buy tickets for any of those programs, and what other things are important for them to know?

NATHAN LUFF: Yeah, so on our website is where you'll get all the information. So, there are different pages for primary and secondary and for our Student Sessions and for Russ the Story Bus. So, it's a good idea to go and check out everything that's happening there.

We also have a podcast series that we'll be launching soon as well, which is for families and would also be great in schools. So, some of our presenters talking about books. Yeah, so check it out. We are-- the school program happen in May, and Russ the Story Bus happens in usually Term 4.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Amazing. If you're at a school outside the Sydney metro area, the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge team head backstage to record student-led author interviews with the authors that appear at the Sydney Writers' Festival Primary and Secondary School Days. And that's all thanks to the amazing Sydney Writers' Festival team.

You can find these on the Arts Unit website, artsunit.nsw.edu.au, and search for 'author interviews'. You can also find a link to these interviews from the home page of the PRC website, premiersreadingchallenge.nsw.edu.au. We've been recording these since 2017, so there's a huge backlog of interviews with Australian and international authors that are sure to inspire your students to read and write.

Speaking of inspiring students, I'm aware that you offer author visits and writing workshops. How can schools book these, and what can they expect?

NATHAN LUFF: Yes, I love going out to schools. It's one of my favourite things. So, on my website, which is nathanluff.com.au, you can contact me through there through Creative Kids Speakers Agency who can book me.

I-- what I love to do is I love to go into schools and tell my life story because it has inspired the books that I write. So, I grew up, as I mentioned, on a farm, as one of 5 boys. You can imagine the hilarious things that happened in that sort of childhood. So, I just tell all these wonderful stories about my brothers. Hopefully they'll never hear the stories that I tell.

And that leads into then my books and how I crafted them from there, and the real-life inspiration that I draw constantly. And then I also love doing workshops, especially about characters and dialogue. They're some of my favourite things.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. And for our final question today, can you recommend a few books that our listeners need to know about?

NATHAN LUFF: Yes, I can. I thought long and hard about this because I read a lot for my work. I read a lot of books, and I've got so many favourites. But then I thought, you know what? What I might do is I might recommend the 3 books that my 12-year-old self would recommend to you. So, these are books going back but still books that are floating around that you can still find. So, these were, yeah, probably 3 of my favourites as a kid.

One is called 'Magpie Island' by Colin Thiele, and that book broke my heart. I think it was probably the first book where I just bawled. And I think because books that connect, whether they make you laugh, whether they make you cry, whether they make you scared, they're the books you really remember, so that book.

Another book, 'Taronga' by Victor Kelleher. So, Victor was my favourite author. I just read everything that I could. But 'Taronga' was set in this post-apocalyptic world where the world had moved on, but what do we do with the animals in the zoo? And so there are people within-- and so it was really exciting. And I do like stories about animals, so I'd recommend that.

And finally, a book that I found so funny, and I've listened to it as an audiobook recently, and it's still very, very funny, is Robin Klein's 'Hating Alison Ashley'. Classic and great story set in school, so relatable. And as someone who was an academic kid, I remember when those kids would come into your school, and they'd be that competition, and you're like, 'I like them as people, but you need to back off.'

[laughter]

So, I totally related with Erica Yurken.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, the competitiveness there.

NATHAN LUFF: Yes.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me today, Nathan Luff. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your books and your work for the Sydney Writers' Festival. And I'm sure our listeners with primary-aged readers will be eager to check out your books for a laugh-filled reading journey.

NATHAN LUFF: Thanks for having me.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways, and skies where we listen, read, and learn. From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present, and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 4 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by young adult author Will Kostakis. Will is the author of 'We Could Be Something', the 'Monuments' duology, 'The Sidekicks', 'The First Third', and junior fiction title 'Stuff Happens: Sean', all of which feature on the PRC book lists. Hi, Will. How are you today?

WILL KOSTAKIS: I'm very well, thanks. How are you?

JADE ARNOLD: Good. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. So, Will, one of the key aims of the Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is being able to connect with children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. So, with that in mind, we'd like to do a little 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch to help teach librarians making recommendations for their students.

So, imagine, if you will, a student is standing between the bookshelves in their school, local library, or the bookshop, and they're in the K section, and they see your titles there on the shelves, maybe with a little PRC sticker on the spine of the book. And you've got to help them make that decision to take your book home. So, could you give us a 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest title, 'We Could Be Something', which features on the 9Plus book list, and what type of reader do you think it would appeal to?

WILL KOSTAKIS: I think 'We Could Be Something' will really appeal to that teenager who feels like they're aging out of young adult but aren't quite ready to dip their toe into an adult book. It's about 2 very different teenagers who are standing on the edge of the rest of their lives. And it is a big queer family coming of age story. I wanted to look at a family in a time of crisis, and then make a lot of jokes during that crisis and hopefully break the reader's heart and then sort of mend it a little bit and hopefully leave the reader a little bit more well equipped for the future that they're stepping into.

JADE ARNOLD: I think you've done that very well. There's definitely a lot of heartbreak, but there's a lot of laughter along the way. Now, this next question is going to be a little tricky for you to answer, because I don't want to spoil this for anyone listening who hasn't read this book, but this story is told from the perspective of 2 characters. You've got Harvey and Sotiris, and as the narrative unfolds, there's this lovely little twist around how their 2 lives interact. Can you talk us through why you chose to write 'We Could Be Something' in this way and what some of the challenges of taking this approach were.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Obviously, one of the big challenges is when you're an author, you spend so much time talking about the book, in fact, more time than you actually spend writing the book. And now I'm like, oh, I want talk about it, but I can't talk about it. So, that's one of the biggest challenges for me as the writer. But it's also one of the biggest rewards for the reader, because as a reader, working through the PRC when I was a kid, the books that really stuck with me are the ones that opened themselves up to me and that surprised me and that challenged me.

And so with 'We Could Be Something', I'm like, these 2 boys, their stories intersect in a really interesting way. I'm not going to tell you how. I want you to see when you figure it out, if you figure it out. There's no one big shocking moment where they intersect. Some people have picked it on page 5. Some people, look, let's face it, some of the adults who've read it don't pick it, and then they have to read it again. But most people get it around the middle.

And I really wanted to do that, because I wanted to make sure that the reader was active in constructing meaning. I was a big crime fiction fan growing up. And even though this is not a crime fiction text, it is a readerly text where the reader is invited in and really, really looking for clues and trying to figure out how the 2 characters meet.

JADE ARNOLD: And it's that really fun process of going back once you've figured it out, going back through the story in your head and thinking, oh, here are all the little breadcrumbs you left along the way to lead me to this point, which is really nice. But for any of our listeners thinking about picking up this book, I strongly recommend you avoid reading any reviews before you read it, because you will probably come across the spoiler of what we're trying to talk about. But it's a really great title to recommend to a student who's looking for something that will subvert their expectations, just like you were talking about.

But something that really stood out in 'We Could Be Something' was the depth of characters, their strengths and their imperfections, and how deeply tied they were to this little family-run Greek cafe and the apartment upstairs from it. How do you go about creating such rich characters, and where do you draw your inspiration from?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Where does Will, who grew up in a small cafe in Darlinghurst, draw his inspiration from? I don't know, just my mind. I'm just so creative. Look, I was fortunate enough to grow up in a small but potent Greek family. And this book, especially, I hate it when authors say this is the story of my heart, as if all my stories aren't the story of my heart. But this one especially.

I was writing 2 novels, one about growing up in my small but potent Greek family, and another about being a 17-year-old author and how challenging that was. And over the course of writing both of those books, they inched closer and closer together until they became one novel. And so, for me, the story started with my real life. And obviously, the first draft I wrote the mum character very much like my mum, the grandmother character very much like my grandmother, all the boy characters very much like me. And I tend to write a first draft like that.

And then with the second draft, I'm like, no, these are no longer characters that I know. And then they start to become fictional. They start to react differently to the people in my life. They start to develop different characteristics that the story actually needs. And by the third or fourth draft, there are little hints of the people that I know that inspired them, but they begin to serve the story. And so for me, that's my process. I start with the real, and then slowly but surely, it becomes something fictional.

JADE ARNOLD: So, I guess that's where this real down to earth grounding of realistic representation of people, because they've come from very real people, and then you tweak them and they take on this life of their own.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Yeah, 100%.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, that's awesome. 'We Could Be Something' won the 2024 Prime Minister's Literature Award in the young adult category, and the judges described it as 'a powerful novel with universal appeal, imbued with heart and wit, told with control and maturity'. What was it like receiving this award, and what do awards like the Prime Minister's Literature Award mean to authors?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Look, it was a terrible experience. I can't believe they did it to me.

JADE ARNOLD: You have to get up on stage.

WILL KOSTAKIS: I have made my whole brand around getting nominated for every award, but never winning, and now that I've won one, I am completely adrift. No look--

[laughs]

It meant a lot to me. Again, this is a book where those who read it, you will see that one of the most important people in my life, she is aging. And we are getting to the point now where we are saying goodbye. And I always want to share things with her. And I'm really grateful that this came at a point in my life where I got to share this with her. She is my overwhelming, overbearing great grandmother.

The last time I wrote a book that was heavily inspired by her was 'The First Third', and that was nominated for the same award. And I remember when I didn't win that award. The big disappointment came from, 'Oh, I really wanted to win this for her.' And so, getting to win it at a time when she is still with it enough to know, 'Hey, William won,' and it really, really meant a lot.

And look, awards don't really mean anything. Like they do, they're wonderful, I love them. But at the end of the day, you wake up the next day, you're still the same person. I am not suddenly famous. People aren't suddenly reading my books more than they were. But that little bit of validation, that helps more on the bad days.

Because I love being a writer. I love getting out to schools, meeting teenagers, empowering them to write. But at the same time, so much of my job is sitting alone at a desk thinking, oh, I hate this sentence. I know there is a good sentence in there somewhere, but I cannot figure it out. And there is so much doubt and so much just self-loathing that when you get an award like this, at least for a week, I was like, 'Oh, maybe I'm OK at this.'

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I'm very glad you were able to share that with your grandmother. That's very sweet and definitely worth checking it out. I think from my perspective at least, having those awards like that really showcase what authors are doing that are really unique and really powerful in that space. And I think certainly what we were trying to talk about without spoiling things earlier is probably contributing a lot to that. So, definitely worth checking it out.

Before we move on to your next book, let's come back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say our teen reader is standing between the bookshelves after devouring 'We Could Be Something' and is after their next great read. What would you suggest they read next?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Well, if we're in the K section, I would nudge them towards, say, an Amy Kaufman book and go, 'Hey, you've read enough of me.'

[laughs]

But if you're looking at the K section and you're like, 'You know what, I want another Will Kostakis banger,' I would sit there and go, 'OK, but what did you like about "We Could Be Something"?' Because 'We Could Be Something', when I wrote it, I was like, 'I want this to feel like the greatest hits of everything I've learned from my career as an author.'

You've got the small but potent Greek family stuff. If that is what really, really got to you, then 'The First Third' is the obvious choice. And you will see the DNA of 'The First Third', a lot of that is in 'We Could Be Something'. If you liked the dueling voices, and you really enjoyed the interplay of the personal and queerness more brought to the fore, I would look at 'The Sidekicks'.

If you were like, 'Look, I liked "We Could Be Something", but nothing happened.' One, I would say you're wrong. Read it again. But 2, I would be like, 'OK, you would want something a little bit more plot driven.' And perhaps if you're somebody who is more drawn to fantasy, I would be like, 'OK, if you like that voice, you can get a little bit of the Greekness as well, and a lot of the interplay between the characters, but do that in a fantasy setting,' and you get 'Monuments' and its sequel, 'Rebel Gods'.

If you're like, 'I want a Will Kostakis novel, but I'm not committing to another 70,000 words,' then you just look at 'The Greatest Hit', which is a nice little novella, and you can bang that out in 2 nights.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. So, the next 2 books I'd like to talk about with you are 'Monuments' and 'Rebel Gods', which you've just mentioned. These are books 1 and 2 of the 'Monuments' duology, and they both feature on the 7 to 9 book list. How would you describe this to someone thinking about picking up the series, and what type of reader do you think it would appeal to?

WILL KOSTAKIS: 'Monuments' and 'Rebel Gods' are very much speaking to those readers who love, say, 'Percy Jackson', or who devour video games like 'The Legend of Zelda' and are like, 'You know what, I love this sort of lighter fantasy, but I wish it was set in Australia.' And so, that's what 'Monuments' is. Three teenagers skip school to find the ancient gods that are buried under different Sydney high schools. Then they accidentally kill those gods and absorb their powers.

And so, really fun. Still has a bit of the Will Kostakis emotional punch, but I was very aware of actually, no, I'm dialing up the funny on these, and I'm not trying to make you cry on every second page. That was really important to me. And the thing is, I wrote the first book and I was like, 'Oh, this is so escapist. This is so fun.' And I didn't realize how much I would need that until I was writing the sequel.

And 'Rebel Gods' was written during the initial COVID lockdown, so all my plans for the series I had to throw away. And it was like, 'OK, I can only walk 1 kilometre away from my house. Sweet. That is where this book is going to be set.' And so, it became a really intimate portrait of Redfern in Sydney, while 'Monuments' itself sprawls across.

JADE ARNOLD: All of greater Sydney.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Yes. And I wanted to look at what the world would be like if teenagers were suddenly empowered. What would they look to change? One of the big frustrations when I was a teenager was that you're coming into your own, and you're starting to notice the injustices, and you're starting to notice the things that adults accept about the world, all its little cruelties. And they're just like, 'Yeah, but that's just the way it is.' And if you were a teenager and you suddenly became a god, what would you do to try to change the world and how difficult would that be?

JADE ARNOLD: I really like that question. But what was it like writing a fantasy novel for the first time, and how did you find that writing process different from your other titles?

WILL KOSTAKIS: It was absolute hell. [laughs] Because for me, like I always say, 'If nothing happens in a scene, it's just 2 characters sitting down, I can find a way to make it interesting.' But characters suddenly have to do stuff and you have to keep the plot moving, suddenly I'm just like, 'I am not equipped for this. Oh, I'm writing a fight scene. Punch goes here.' I just am not equipped, and I was overthinking every single part.

And the thing was, the big fantasy books that I devoured are Terry Pratchett ones, and he's just sassing everything on every page. And the thing is you don't want the Marvel-ification of the voice, where if you're watching a Marvel movie and they see the bad guy and they're just like, 'Oh, this is happening now, I guess, ha ha ha.' And it defuses all the tension. And so for me, if I was too sassy on the page, it would defuse tension. If I was too funny, it would defuse tension. So, I had to find a way to balance building stakes with having a solid laugh. And I didn't want to take myself too seriously.

That was a huge challenge for me, but it taught me so much about, one, writing to deadline as well, because it was my first 2-book deal where it was like, 'No, this is when you have to deliver your next book. There is no wiggle room here. Yes, there's been a pandemic, but guess what? No wiggle room. You have to deliver something.'

Absolutely frightening. And so, it really taught me to write under the pump and to just-- I don't want to say accept near enough is good enough, but there was a lot of, 'Oh, I don't have the 3 years to go back and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite. I need to trust my first thought and really try to make that.' I haven't written like that since high school, since Year 12 when you're writing creatively under exam conditions. And as stressful as that was, there was some really exciting turns that it took. But I will never be doing that ever again.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: Well, it sounds like that's a really good writing tip to take to students is that sometimes what you need to do is just write it down and see where it goes, as opposed to focusing on perfecting that sentence.

WILL KOSTAKIS: You just have to decide. Because there's always that fear of, 'Oh, is this, what I have written, the best it could possibly be? What if I have a different idea?' And when you're in an exam and you've got 45 minutes to write or whatever, you can't wait for the better idea. You have to commit to something and then sit there and go, 'I'm going to make this idea, this thought that I had, the best it could possibly be.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, exactly. And if you spend so long wondering about the possibilities, the possibilities will never come to be. Yeah, it sounds very stressful, and I'm glad that that's your job and not mine.

[laughter]

As a writer, you're not someone who tends to shy away from dealing with some hard-hitting issues. But 'Monuments', as you've mentioned, is a lot more lighthearted than your other works. That's not to say that there isn't depth to this book. But you've got Connor, who's this Greek-Australian teenager who is gay, and the story doesn't focus on the angst of his coming out. He is just out. There's a lot of diversity within your supporting characters as well. And you really like to focus on issues that are relevant to teen readers, like friendship, breakups, crushes, what would you do with unlimited power, I guess. And then there's that characteristic Kostakis witty dialogue that we've come to know and love from your works. Why was it so important for you to write such a fun book with this lovely representation at its core?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Well, to take the representation half, it's because when I was a teenager, I was so scared of coming out, mostly because the only time I'd ever read it was people treating it like it was the big like, 'Oh my god, no one will ever love me if they know this deep, dark secret.' And then, 'Oh, I came out and everyone loved me because I'm spectacular.'

JADE ARNOLD: You're able to be yourself, yeah.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Sure. That's a less conceited way to say it.

[laughter]

But yeah, look, I didn't want to tell kids that the only queer future that they could anticipate was one where everyone in their life abandoned them and they had to rebuild their life from scratch. I know people who's experience that was, but I also know people who didn't have that experience. And I didn't want people's first thought when they considered coming out to be, 'Oh, I'm choosing between being happy and my family.' And I was somebody who was very happy to put a pin in that sort of sexuality part of myself to keep everyone in my life happy.

And there was that conversation in the editorial process where the editor was like, 'Oh, Will, so there's been a friendship breakup. So, that's because he came out, right, and that's why the friendship broke up?' And I'm like, 'Absolutely not. We are not doing that.' Would have been the easier thing to do, but I did not want it to be the source of conflict. I wanted to find conflict in other places. And that was really, really, really important to me.

And why is the book lighter? Well, I'd just come off writing 2 books back to back, 'The First Third', which was wrestling with my grandmother's mortality, and 'The Sidekicks', which is wrestling with that time my best friend died in high school. And you write 2 books like that back to back, and you talk about those books every single day, and it feels exhausting.

And I'm the sort of person who, sure, we will have a deep and meaningful and it will be great, but I will also make the most wildly inappropriate joke you've ever heard, and you will cackle so loud that we'll be asked to leave whatever venue we're at. That is me, and I wanted to show that part of me, and that was also-- I was visiting schools, talking to kids, and making all these jokes, and all the kids would be laughing nonstop, and I'm like, 'Hi, OK, cool. Here are 2 really depressing books that will make you laugh.'

JADE ARNOLD: And they're gonna make you cry.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Yeah, but this is sad. So, I needed a book that was more in the voice that I present in. And I wanted something light and-- there's still heavy stuff there, obviously.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely.

WILL KOSTAKIS: There's stuff that I cut out of 'The First Third', which was wrestling with-- I was quite young when my grandfather moved into a nursing home and we rarely saw him. It was just, OK, cool. My grandmother went every day, but for us it was like, OK, it's just this thing off to the side that we're just not going to think about. And as I've grown older and I've still had that relationship with my grandmother, I'm just like, oh, I felt a little guilty about that.

And I wanted to write a book where-- and this is the wonderful thing about being a writer. And anyone can be a writer. You can go back to the things that you've regretted, and you can live a version of that where you actually change what happened. And that is what's at the core, and that's the emotional core of 'Monuments'.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you for sharing that. And for readers who really enjoyed the 'Monuments' duology, what would you recommend they try next?

WILL KOSTAKIS: I would obviously say go to 'Percy Jackson'. Go to those really light, fun, urban fantasy with that mix of contemporary in there. I think that's a really good place to go. But if you want something more fantasy, then I would go to, say, Amy Kaufman. If you're looking for something a bit more mature, I would then look at Lili Wilkinson's fantasy duology, which is 2 standalone novels, 'Deep is the Fen' and 'Hunger of Thorns'. Those 2, I think that's-- and Lili's really great at mixing the personal with the fantastical, and so, that's where I would go next.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, wonderful. Thank you for those recommendations. Let's talk next about 'The Sidekicks', which features on the 9Plus book list. Can you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this title and tell us who you think it would appeal to?

WILL KOSTAKIS: 'The Sidekicks' is about 4 guys, but they're not 4 best friends. They're 3 guys with the same best friend. Then that best friend passes away and it's about what the others, the swimmer, the rebel and the nerd, what they do to rebuild their lives and eventually trace a path back to each other.

JADE ARNOLD: It's such, such a good book. What type of reader do you think that book would appeal to?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Well, every reader. No, it is somebody who is really deep in their friendships. I think that's the starting point. I would pitch it at the people who are devouring crime novels at the moment. All the books that are titled, like, 'This Cheerleader Has a Secret'. All those books. And I'd be like, 'OK, let's look at the more human side of this, where sometimes you don't get answers. Sometimes you don't get clues and closure. You're just left with an absence and the other people.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and instead of them trying to focus on solving what happened to the kid that died, they're focusing on what that means for them and what life is going to be like with that gap in.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Because even if you do figure out everything that happened, you still have to pick yourself up and keep living. You can't keep looking back. And so this is the flip side to that. It is basically 3 novellas stuck together. First, you deal with the swimmer, who is struggling with his sexuality. You have the rebel, who doesn't really deal with emotion very well. He just runs away. And you have the nerd, who is just totally inept at having human interactions.

And it's all about how the 3 of them build bridges. And we talk about masculinity in crisis and all that stuff. Yawn. But it's really hopefully giving teenagers, teenage boys especially, a blueprint for how to talk through things, how to deal with difficult situations, but also how to be the friend that somebody needs you to be. You can have somebody who you spend every single day sitting next to. You could be, quote unquote, 'friends', but you can also not be actual friends.

JADE ARNOLD: And not really know who they are.

WILL KOSTAKIS: And not be the person they need you to be. And so that is what 'The Sidekicks' is. And it's about 3 teenagers who don't think that they are strong enough to support their own stories coming into their own. So, I would recommend it to teenagers who are a bit uneasy about growing up and who are fearing interpersonal stuff, who are fearing sudden changes, or who have perhaps gone through sudden changes.

The book, I don't want to be like, 'This especially speaks to kids whose friend died.' But that's been the big one where if tragedy has struck a school. This was a book that I started in the aftermath of my friend passing away in high school and dealing with that honestly. And people have seen that, and it has helped them a little bit on their journey.

JADE ARNOLD: That's very special and very important. Something I really loved about how you wrote this book was your use of the 3 different perspectives. So, when we read books with multiple POVs, we're used to seeing alternating characters chapter by chapter. And in 'The Sidekicks' instead of that, as you mentioned earlier, you take us through the 3 friends' perspective. First Ryan, then Harley and then finally Miles. And you don't switch in between. You're committed to one character at a time.

So, it's not something that you encounter often, but it really gives the reader the chance to peel back the layers of the other characters and their connections to Isaac, who's the student who dies. What drove you to structure the narrative this way, and why do you think it's important for readers to expose themselves to novels that use structural writing techniques in different ways?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Oh, this is the part that really pissed people off. And the 'why I did it' was because I wanted to show people that grief, suddenly, when you're in the thick of it, you lose track of time. You almost lose track of who you are and you're just sort of muddling through everything. And it is this thick sludge that overtakes everything, and you're slowly paddling up for air.

When I wrote my first novel, there was an opening scene that was based on my best friend's funeral, and then I cheated, and I wrote 3 months later and I skipped the hard part. And this book is about those 3 months especially. And I didn't want chapter breaks. I didn't want flash forwards. I wanted the reader to stick with a character.

Because after a death, it's like your world pauses, but everything else kind of moves on around you, and you're just sort of trying to catch up. Because somebody who was the centre of your life is no longer there, but everybody else's life is moving without the interruption. And so, that was why I wanted to stick with a character for a very long time. And then you get to see their growth. And the moment you either get the hint of growth or you see the growth, that's when I jump to somebody else.

And I wanted to give you time to sit in a character's perspective, to have all of these preconceived notions built, and then you jump into the character you thought you knew and then realise, oh, wait, that other character did not know them at all.

JADE ARNOLD: And I think that was most apparent with Miles's perspective. That was the one that was, I remember, being the most eye opening as I was reading that. And the end of his section just hits you hard because of that. So, I guess maybe your ulterior motive was to make people cry maybe.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Look, the thing about Miles's is that, look, if you're reading this as a student, perhaps you are either completing or contemplating doing English Extension 2 in the NSW syllabus. Miles's section was my English Extension 2 Major Work.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, wow.

WILL KOSTAKIS: And so, there is a point in 'The Sidekicks' where he does something where he deletes some stuff, let's just say. That was originally the ending to my short story, and that worked really well as the ending to a short story, but that absolutely pissed off all of my test readers because that was the end to Miles's story, but it was not the end to the 3 stories that we'd heard.

JADE ARNOLD: It wasn't the end to 'The Sidekicks'.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Yeah. So, I had to then tack something on at the end that was closure for their entire narrative.

JADE ARNOLD: OK, very interesting. What books would you recommend readers to try next if they really enjoyed 'The Sidekicks'?

WILL KOSTAKIS: I think 'The Sidekicks' is the closest to American contemporary young adult, or at least the young adult that I was reading 10 or so years ago. I would look at authors like David Levithan. I would look at authors like earlier works by Becky Albertalli. I would look at the works of John Corey Whaley especially. I think it shares a lot of DNA.

And it's no surprise to me that 'The Sidekicks' is my book that was released overseas. It does have that more American YA flavor. A lot of that was because when I was writing 'The Sidekicks', I was reading a lot of American YA, because the Australian young adult wasn't really all that queer. Queerness was always something to the side, and I wanted to see what American writers were doing to bring queerness to the fore, because Australia was quite behind and quite conservative in that respect. So, I think I would look to American contemporary titles.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, OK. Great. Thank you. The second novel you ever published, 'The First Third', won the 2014 Inky Award and was a shortlisted book for the CBCA Book of the Year Older Readers category, and is on the 7 to 9 book list. Can you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this book?

WILL KOSTAKIS: What if your great grandmother gave you a wildly inappropriate bucket list to complete? That includes find your mother a husband, un-gay your older brother, and make your younger brother not a twerp.

[laughter]

So, obviously not at all based on my life at all.

JADE ARNOLD: Not at all.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Yeah, this was an incredibly fun book to write, because my first book absolutely tanked. And I was like, 'OK, cool, I'm only going to get one more chance at this.' So, I threw so much of my life into that book, and I exhausted everything. And it was a really great way to air all of my grievances but then to tell everyone on the last page, hey, but I love you regardless.

JADE ARNOLD: There's so much love for the grandmother in this novel. She's the glue that holds the family together. So much so that Billy is trying to fulfill this ridiculously inappropriate and impossible bucket list. There's also Billy's best friend, Lucas, who has cerebral palsy and is the constant supportive friend in his life who loans out his father to Billy to teach him how to ride a bike, something that Billy sees as a missed opportunity due to his absent father. How do you create such 3-dimensional characters in your writing, and where do you draw your inspiration from?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Well, we start with your father abandoning you. So, if your dad hasn't done that yet, here is my 5-point plan to make your father hate you. No.

[laughter]

Again, it was like 'We Could Be Something'. So, this is the book that shares the most DNA with 'We Could Be Something' where I really started with my life and built things out from there. And because this book was a love letter to the people in my life who have supported me. And while my friend didn't loan out his dad for me to ride a bike, we were on Duke of Edinburgh Camp in Year 10, and it was a bike riding camp.

And I'm like, 'I can't ride a bike.' And they're like, 'Who can't ride a bike?' I'm like, 'Someone whose dad took his bike away in the divorce.' And then the teacher was like, 'Aw, but you still have to go.' And so they let me ride in the truck for the first day of the bike riding camp. And then the second day, when we were on the edge of a cliff for the entire day, they're like, 'Today is the day you're going to learn to ride a bike.' And I'm like, 'I have no--

JADE ARNOLD: Sink or swim.

WILL KOSTAKIS: I have no coordination.' So, instead of hitting a curb, I would be hitting a sheer drop. But my mate stayed up, and it's the woods. So, it's dark at 5 pm. And he taught me how to ride a bike.

JADE ARNOLD: That's so sweet.

WILL KOSTAKIS: And that's something that really, really stuck with me. And I didn't want to write a book-- I know I joked about my dad not being around-- but I did not write a book that was like, 'Woe is me, Dad's not there.' I wanted to write about the absence, but I wanted to write about the people who fill that absence, the people who step up. My grandmother who cleared out her life savings so that we could stay at the school we were going to. The one who fed us.

I wanted to pay tribute to the mother who worked tirelessly to make sure we didn't go without. We still went without, but it didn't feel like it. It's a childhood that I would change nothing about with hindsight. And I wanted to write about the brothers who each had their own sort of experience of the divorce that wasn't pleasant, who frustrate me to no end, but who I love dearly and would do anything for.

And we're so used to when somebody frustrates us just abandoning them and being like, 'Oh, you're toxic. I don't like you. Rarr!' But it's about cutting through and finding that common ground. And this book was about the importance of family, and yeah, it's-- a lot of it is from my life. But again, second draft, third draft. Look, I didn't hide it as well with this book. This is very much like, 'Oh, this is potentially defamatory.'

[laughs]

And it's even though-- I think the characteristics of the people kind of stayed the same, and then what happened in the book was fictional. But the big thing was the friendship in the book, that was mostly made up. Because what I did was I split myself in 2. There was the part of me that is really afraid of everything, and then the part of me that's going to say the sassy thing and going to do the thing. And it's like, so I split that into 2 characters, and they were in conversation with each other.

And also Lucas was my queer part that I was too scared to say, this is me. So, what did I do? I created a heterosexual character, Bill, who is obviously the author stand-in, and I had the queer character who was taking his first awkward steps into queerness, but that was just the best friend. And there was no way people would assume that there was more me there than in the other character.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, it's so lovely to see that your writing has come to a point where you've got that queerness represented in your--

WILL KOSTAKIS: Too much, some might say.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: No. So, you received your first book deal when you were still in high school, and it was published when you were just 19. I know that you've touched on that a little bit, but can you tell us about that experience and how that shaped you as a writer?

WILL KOSTAKIS: I mean, read 'We Could Be Something'. A lot of it's there. But that's the thing. I was not ready to be an author that young. And every time I meet a teenager who is like me, who's like, 'I have to get published, I have to get published,' and it's like, 'No. You have to be a writer. There is a difference. Enjoy it. Write it.' We're entering the era of AI slop anyway. The odds of any of us breaking through are slim to none anymore.

You cannot change how your book is received. You cannot change whether you will be an award-winning author or not. Look, I'm sitting here having won the Prime Minister's Literary Award. When I was in a meeting with my publisher at 17, they had a few books out on the table, and they're like, 'Which author do you want to be? Who would you want to be like?' And I pointed to one author who was a critical darling and an award winner, and the publisher looked at me and said, 'Will, that's beyond you, OK.' And the thing was, I was young enough to believe them.

And it was a really tough experience. I'm really glad to have gone through it. And while I tell everyone else to be like, 'No, take your time. The book you write in your early 20s is going to be so much bolder, because you're going to be so much more comfortable with who you are, and you'll understand what you want to say.' But I know that I'm only the author that I am because I had that unpleasant experience at 17 to 19, went out to the wilderness, and then came back in my early 20s with gusto and wrote 'The First Third'. So, yeah, it was an interesting experience. I'm glad I went through it. I did not like going through it at the time.

JADE ARNOLD: So, I guess you'd say that there's no rush to be published when you're 19 and you can wait a little bit longer.

WILL KOSTAKIS: But there are student magazines you can write for. There are ways to build an audience for your writing. Do that and don't worry about an audience. All you need is a pen and a paper or Microsoft Word when it's not telling you to be like, 'Hey, rewrite this using AI.' Just enjoy the act of writing and how good it makes you feel.

JADE ARNOLD: I think that's a really, really important tip to take. Are you able to share with us what you're working on now for your next book?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Yes, I can, actually. I am writing a really fun novel. It is called 'Otis Ottley and the School in the Sky'. It is my middle grade debut. It is about a boy named Otis who desperately wants to go to magic school like everybody else he knows, only he did not get accepted into magic school, and he is now the only kid in Year 7 in his entire town. And so it follows Otis as he conspires to break into the magic school and scam them out of an education.

JADE ARNOLD: Sounds like such a fun read, and definitely can see a lot of middle grade readers keen to see what it would be like. I guess they could put themselves more in Otis's shoes. Because who amongst us has actually ever been accepted to a magic school? Can't wait. Really excited to hear that one.

A lot of our listeners are teacher librarians or teachers that are PRC coordinators who care very deeply about nurturing a love of reading in their students. What advice would you give to them about reading in school?

WILL KOSTAKIS: Honestly, don't push kids to read a certain type of book. Just because a book spoke to you when you were a kid doesn't mean that kids nowadays will connect to it in the same way. Give them space in a library to walk in and pick the book that speaks to them. If you think it's a bit young for them, if you think it's a graphic novel, shh. We don't care. I want the kid to be reading.

There is a whole future ahead of devices causing brain rot and them never picking up a book again. We want to really nurture that habit and that love of reading. And obviously, if they pick up a book that is written by me or is on the PRC, wonderful. Ding, ding, ding. But if they pick up a book that is neither a Will Kostakis classic or a book that is on the PRC, it's fine. Get them reading. Get them loving reading.

And if you think the book that they're reading is trash, have a go at reading it alongside them and talk to them about it. I think the one thing that has, when I get a bit snobby about a book, the one thing that changes that is when I experience it through their eyes and I get to experience their enthusiasm. And while it might not change my opinion on it, I suddenly understand the appeal a lot more.

JADE ARNOLD: And I think that's something that we can often forget as adult readers too. Something that we're reading in a middle grade or young adult novel might come across as really cliche, because we've encountered it so many times in all the books that we've read. But for someone who's still relatively new to their reading journey, that might be the first time that they've come across what we now consider to be cliche. So, that might be groundbreaking for them.

And then they've got their whole reading life ahead of them to see that same kind of pattern repeat across other books. And they get to think of that as, 'Oh, this is the first time I ever saw that in a novel, and I feel like they did it better,' or 'they did it worse,' or whatever. So, yeah, just remembering that we're not the target audience of the books that we're recommending is always really important. On that same note, then, can you recommend a few YA books that you think our listeners need to know about?

WILL KOSTAKIS: OK. John Corey Whaley's novel 'Noggin'. This is about a kid who gets a head transplant. And so, he dies and then comes back 5 years later. All of his friends are now 5 years older. So, they're off at university. His parents couldn't deal with the grief of losing him. They're now divorced. And he is now back.

And so it is-- I kept talking to the author. I'm like, 'This is a ghost story. He has come back to haunt them.' And he's like, 'I never intended that.' I'm like, 'No, it is. It is great.' And for me, I read it as a kid whose best friend died in high school. I'm like, 'Oh my god, this is bringing all those feelings to the fore.' But it's really fun. I really, really enjoyed that.

I love, if you've got a younger reader in your life, Lili Wilkinson's 'Bravepaw'. That is really, really great.

JADE ARNOLD: That's her first middle grade.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Actually it's more junior fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Junior fiction. Sorry.

WILL KOSTAKIS: It is a really light, fun adventure that reminded me of a junior version of 'Deltora Quest'. Really cool, and all the munchkins I've given it to have absolutely devoured it and they're ready for book 2. And anything by Claire Zorn. Anything by Shivaun Plozza. If you've got a young boy reader, Jack Heath, really, really popular. And it's those easy, gentler novels. You can start with his junior fiction and go all the way up to his young adult. And maybe keep them away from the adult fiction.

JADE ARNOLD: Until they're old enough.

WILL KOSTAKIS: And so you can really, really guide them through their reading journey with a Jack Heath novel, which is really great.

JADE ARNOLD: For any teachers out there who'd be interested in booking you for an author talk or a writing workshop, how can they book you and what can they expect?

WILL KOSTAKIS: They can expect the greatest author visit ever. No. [laughs] The first thing they should do is get in contact with me. You can visit my website. All the contact details are there. There's a form they can fill out. That is the best way to reach me. And in terms of what can they expect, I am pretty chill about it.

Whether it is a workshop that is very generalised or whether it is specifically for a particular assessment coming up, I have everything from 'Will get my Year 6s and Year 7s interested in creative writing and get them to build a scene' all the way up to 'It's Year 12, they've got the HSC coming up, teach them craft of writing.' And I'm like, 'Cool, I'll do that in 2 hours.'

JADE ARNOLD: No stress, no biggie.

WILL KOSTAKIS: But that's the vegetables of what I provide. I'm also a big believer in the author talk where the author comes in and inspires. I tell them my life story during an author talk. I tell them about my books. I get them interested in me and my work. And so, hopefully, they then visit the library and borrow. It's about building connection, and it's about getting them reading. Right? If they are reading one book a year, I want them to read 2. If they are reading 2 books a year, I want to get them to 4. And I work in tandem with the library staff to really try to get them engaged.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Will. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your books, and I'm sure our listeners with teen readers in their lives will be eager to check out your books for more heartfelt yet witty stories as they work to complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge.

WILL KOSTAKIS: Thank you.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series.

For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction, as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in.

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 3 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by award-winning author Danielle Binks. She's the author of young adult titles 'Begin, End, Begin', and 'The Monster of Her Age', and middle grade titles 'The Year the Maps Changed', and her latest release, 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold', all of which feature on either the 5 to 6 or the 7 to 9 PRC book lists. Danielle, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

DANIELLE BINKS: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. We were just discussing we both have curly hair. So, we've just been sharing tips and tricks on how to get through Sydney humidity. But thank you very much. I feel very welcomed, very excited to be here. Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, thank you for joining us. Sorry for the humidity. But your hair looks amazing today. So, Danielle, one of the key aims of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we like to call it, is being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. So, with that in mind, we like to do something that we call 'between the bookshelves' pitch instead of an elevator pitch.

So, imagine, if you will, a student is standing between the bookshelves in their school or local library or bookshop in the B section. And they see your titles there, and maybe they've got a little PRC sticker on the spine of the book. And you've got to help them make that decision to take your book home. So, could you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for your latest release, 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list, and tell us what this book is about and what type of reader you think would enjoy it?

DANIELLE BINKS: 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold' is about neighbours and ex-best friends Tash and Leopold, who had a pretty big falling out in primary school. And we meet them in the transition weeks, months, going from Year 6 into Year 7.

And during that transitional period, for very different reasons, they both experience school refusal. So, they're staying home a lot. And because of this, they're being thrown back together again, having to revisit their history, their very recent history collapse of their friendship. And they're getting very interested in perhaps a decades-old mystery in their neighbourhood of Noble Park, and in particular, getting interested in a neighbour who's become a bit of a recluse.

So, they're thrown together again. It's a big friendship drama, family drama, big hopes, big feels. Absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: And what type of reader do you think would enjoy reading it?

DANIELLE BINKS: The type of reader that I was. So, somebody who maybe sometimes enjoys a big cry, who's big into feels, especially, I would say, someone who's wanting some affirming friendship novels, that goes through the real dramas, I feel like, of primary school, where there are fallouts, but you can reconnect. And also, kids who kind of want to be better equipped to talk their feelings out maybe?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I'd say that's spot on and I can definitely vouch for the 'cry your eyes out'. Definitely have some tissues handy at the end, I would say.

DANIELLE BINKS: Good.

JADE ARNOLD: But certainly, a phenomenal book. So, obviously I was fortunate enough to review this title myself, so, I'd love to ask you some really specific questions about 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold' before we talk about your other books, if that's OK.

DANIELLE BINKS: Absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: One of the things that I felt was particularly special in 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold' was the way that you tackled these very serious and important topics in a really digestible format for middle grade readers. So, you've got Leopold, who, amongst some really complex family issues, is struggling with anxiety. His neighbour and childhood friend, Tash, is a cancer survivor. And all these issues that unfold around them are set against this backdrop of this neighbourhood that's undergoing development in a way that's really at odds with the community.

So, what inspired you to focus on these issues in 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold', and why do you think it's important to touch on these types of topics in middle grade novels?

DANIELLE BINKS: I think there's a real gap between when you're in that transitional period, and maybe you're not yet ready for the upper end of young adult literature. I speak to so many kids who, when I say to them, 'What don't you want to read in books anymore?' and one of the main things they'll say is 'love triangles'. I'm so sick of love triangles.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs]

DANIELLE BINKS: And why is every character 16? And it is funny when you're talking to 11-, 12-, 13-year-olds. They're getting more mature. But YA can often far surpass what they're wanting to read and where they're at and what they're feeling. So, I feel like middle grade plugs that in-between stage. It's the middle years. It's that very liminal space of you are still a kid, but you are transitioning more into young adulthood.

You're starting to recognise empathy for others a lot more. And you're broadening your community circles a lot more. And you're realising that you have a role to play in your community of school, in your family life as well. You're kind of realising that you have a much bigger and more exciting role to play in your own life as well. So, I feel like when I was that age, I would sometimes read adult books.

Back in the days, I do want to say, one of my books I wrote, set in 1999, 'The Year the Maps Changed', because that's when I was a 12-year-old. And now, when I go and speak about that book to schools, they do say that I was born in the 1900s, or I lived in the 1900s. Oof! That is right to the guts.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs]

DANIELLE BINKS: But I will say, back in the day, when I was a kid, we didn't have middle grade literature. There was young adult literature. And I did read a lot of that and probably a few books beyond where I was actually at, a lot of Maureen McCarthy, a lot of John Marsden, very serious topics sometimes.

So, I didn't have middle grade. And I would often leapfrog into adult literature, which was also fine. And I really have some wonderful adult books. But I want to write about that liminal space for the kids who feel like they're not represented anywhere else. And I don't mind if I have kids who are slightly older than the characters' ages. Because some kids develop at different times. They're still going through friendship dramas. And they're not ready for all the love triangles and dystopian literature of YA sometimes.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. Look, I remember reading 'Looking for Alibrandi' when I was in Year 6. Fantastic story. Probably not the right book for me in Year 6. So, something like 'Tash and Leopold' or middle grade fiction is really important at filling that space. And that's one of the things that I love about the Premier's Reading Challenge book list is that even though it's on the 5 to 6 book list, that's the universal book list.

So, any student in any challenge level, all the way up from Year 10, all the way down to, I mean, Kindergarten, if they were really able, could read that book and add it to their reading log. And, yeah, middle grade is absolutely something that a lot of Year 7 and Year 8 students, in my experience, definitely gravitate to as they're kind of working towards that stage.

But something that really stood out to me in 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold', and also in 'The Year the Maps Changed', was this depiction of adults in your stories. So, they're these really flawed and complex people who experience growth, and they approach Leopold's anxiety in really different ways. You've got Leo's mother, who's trying really hard to support her son's anxiety, but just doesn't have the right tools or the understanding to be there for him in the right way, especially at the start.

You've got Leo's father, who's over in Western Australia, and he's trying to recover from a gambling addiction and repair the financial damage that he's done to his family. And then you've got Uncle Alex, who's this incredibly perceptive person, and he really meets Leo where he's at. So, what was the drive behind, including these characters? And did you draw from anyone you know?

DANIELLE BINKS: So, 2 things-- one of the books that I read when I was way too young, I was probably about 13 when I first read John Steinbeck's 'East of Eden', which, I was that kid. Yes, absolutely. I was-- my mum had a collection of the entire works of John Steinbeck.

And I was just one of those really pretentious kids, but it really stuck with me. It's genuinely one of my favourite books. And I've gone back, and I've reread it, and I've realised how much it's informed a little bit of my worldview. Just one of those books to read at a time when you're very formative, and it just imprints on your heart a little bit.

And he has this particular line in 'East of Eden', talking about the first time that a child catches adults out. And it kind of walks into their grave little minds that adults do not have all the answers. And there's this closing line to it, which says 'It is an aching kind of growing'. And I feel like that's what I always write about. It's an aching kind of growing.

And I feel like I do not have children of my own. But I'm a dedicated auntie. And there's lots of children in my life from my friends and my family who've had kids. And I'm Auntie Dan to all of them. So, I feel like I am getting the perspective of my friends who have becoming parents for the first time and realising that they don't know what they're doing. They're just winging it every day.

And that realisation, as you get older and you look at how young your parents were when they had you and realising, oh, they didn't have all the answers either. I thought they did.

JADE ARNOLD: And they still don't.

DANIELLE BINKS: And they still don't. So, I feel like I write from this place where it's very easy for me to tap back into what it was to be a 12-year-old, 11-year-old, a 10-year-old. Just because of the way my brain works, there are some days that I can remember primary school clearer than what I had for dinner last night.

But at the same time, I can't help but see the dynamics of observing adults in my life who are becoming parents for the first time. And I'm realising that there's no parachute. They're just free-falling and trying to figure it out. So, I kind of love showing that, both so that kids can know adults don't have all the answers, and that's OK. They're also still working through it. They're not perfect. Because I think it is an aching kind of growing.

And I also write that for any parents who are maybe reading along with the books or are teaching the books, or just any adults who want to read middle grade fiction. I still do, absolutely. Sort of speaking to them, but not really, but just acknowledging that it's OK to not have all the answers. And probably one of the worst things you can do with kids is pretend like you are the authority; that you are godlike.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

DANIELLE BINKS: Because they will eventually catch you out. They will eventually catch on that you don't have all the answers. So, I kind of write this from the perspective of me as an adult who feels like I'm still in an aching kind of growing. And I also write from that perspective of a kid who, if you do realise that adults can muck up as well, that's kind of beautiful. And maybe I'd write that as well so that kids go a little bit easier on their parents and guardians because they're going through it as well. We all are.

I'm trying to grow empathy for everybody. So, I feel like I don't write anybody who has all the answers and is a perfect human being.

JADE ARNOLD: That's really beautiful. I love that. While we're on the topic of adult characters, as a teacher librarian myself, it was genuinely so lovely to see Leo's primary school librarian, Mx Chambers, play a really important role as a supporting character. And I'm sure a lot of the teacher librarians listening out there would feel the same.

Leo is also a library leader. And his mother had aspirations of becoming a librarian before life got in the way. So, can I ask, as a lover of libraries myself, why did you choose to make this mentor character a school librarian?

DANIELLE BINKS: Because they're the best people? [chortling]

JADE ARNOLD: Agreed.

DANIELLE BINKS: I've encountered a lot of them in my travels now as a working author. And they're just the best, kindest, most lovely people. And the libraries I go to I see how much they mean to the kids, and I see how much they pull a school community together.

And on the other end of the spectrum, I've been to public schools, which is really unfortunate, maybe sometimes private, but public schools have gotten rid of their school library, and they've digitised it completely. And there was one I went to in particular. I won't say where in case they listen to this. But it really hurt my heart. They digitised their library last year.

And part of the reason at this public school, that was kind of in a lower economic area, part of the reason was the school board, or the higher-ups had decided that the kids couldn't be trusted with physical books. And talking to the English teachers about it, it was amazing how they said the kids feel that. The kids feel the lack of trust. They feel the lack of--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely.

DANIELLE BINKS: --safe spaces to go to now. And you felt it during lunchtime, that there was just a cohort of kids really going through it who didn't have that place to go away to, that was quiet, that they could regulate. It was seeing both ends of the spectrum-- amazing instances of school libraries and then places where people don't realise that students need school libraries.

And I could see the immediate effects of that. Nobody was happy with the decision. That was probably cost-cutting as well. So, it was writing to the-- both ends of that spectrum. But ultimately, I fall very much into the category of students need school libraries, not just always for the physical books themselves, but it is a place to go and be quiet and to regulate, if you are a student who needs that.

It's also a place for information gathering, not just for fiction reading, though that's what I used it for when I was a kid. And also, school librarians have such a huge input on trying to get collections that reflect their kids as well. I think that's really important. And they also speak to the English teachers about what should you be studying? What could you possibly put onto the syllabus?

All of that is so important to reflect the school community back to itself. So, I very much slip that character in there just to say I love, love, love this profession. I admire it so greatly. And I have seen the consequences when schools deny children school libraries. And I think it's horrendous.

JADE ARNOLD: That love is very much, very deeply felt from my perspective, at least. And I think, just springboarding off what you were saying about having that space for students to go to. I think in NSW in particular, we have teacher librarians. So, they're duly qualified teachers and librarians.

And just having a space in the school where students can access a teacher who isn't their regular classroom teacher just means that these students have the opportunity to talk to an adult and get a bit of support from a teacher who they can then choose not to see later.

So, if they're going through something really rough or really tough, often it's the teacher librarian that they'll go to perhaps before the school counsellor, because they've already got that kind of relationship with them. And it's just beautiful to have that additional level of support. And I really see that through how Leo comes back to Mx, especially after he leaves and is at Como High School, he still comes back to that support person. It's so beautiful.

DANIELLE BINKS: Well, thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: But I also really loved how Mx Chambers acted as this really clever tool to introduce some really sophisticated vocabulary into a text in a way that doesn't break the reader's suspension of disbelief, that a 12-year-old would know and use words like ephemeral casually but also provides them with a definition so that your readers can hopefully add that word to their arsenal as well.

And you do this really well in 'The Year That the Maps Changed', too. So, now that I've mentioned that book, could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for 'The Year the Maps Changed', which was a 2021 Children's Book Council of Australia notable book and features on the 5 to 6 book list as well.

DANIELLE BINKS: Yes, this is the aforementioned one, set in 1999, which is the 1900s to children reading it now. So, prepare yourself. It's historic fiction. Prepare yourself. It's set in 1999 for the very specific reason, that was a year of the Kosovo War and something called Operation Safe Haven, which remains Australia's largest ever humanitarian exercise, when we brought across about 1,500 Kosovo Albanian refugees fleeing the conflict in Kosovo.

And it's set in the Mornington Peninsula, where I grew up, because one of the locations of the Safe Havens was Point Nepean Quarantine Station, near where I grew up. And I remembered this event happening. I didn't remember it so clearly that I could write it from memory. I had to go and do research that was triggered by around about 2016, when there was discussions about reopening the quarantine station to be an asylum centre for refugees. And that was struck down because people's memories of Operation Safe Haven were so different to how we treat refugees and asylum seekers now.

So, it's a big-hearted book about real events that happened, real refugees who came to Australia seeking asylum from a war-torn country. But it's also about my protagonist, Fred, who is going through their own upheaval. And the geography of their family is being rewritten because their stepfather-- who was just their father. It's never kind of delineated. It's step. It's father-- has got a new partner who's pregnant. And Fred is feeling very much like she's being drawn off the map of her family. So, that's the kind of connection with maps as a theme.

JADE ARNOLD: Such a beautiful title. And what type of readers do you think this book would appeal to?

DANIELLE BINKS: So, I always say it's a good one for anyone who enjoyed 'Wolf Hollow' by Lauren Wolk or 'The Thing About Jellyfish' by Ali Benjamin, or any books by Fiona Wood and Nova Weetman, who I feel like this is also true for 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold'. If you're a big Fiona Wood or Nova Weetman fan or a Cath Crowley fan, I feel like my books probably would be very suitable to you, which is just me also saying you might cry.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs]

DANIELLE BINKS: There's big feels, tender heart in it. But, yes, so, that's my kind of cohort of who I feel like I would be sitting next to on the shelf.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. So, as you've just mentioned, obviously 'The Year the Maps Changed' is set in Victoria in 1999 and focuses partially on the 4,000 Kosovar Albanian refugees that were eventually granted temporary protection visas by Australia. And as you've just mentioned, it was the discussion around reopening that centre in 2016 for an asylum centre that was the inspiration behind writing that book.

So, given that it's been almost 20 years after those events occurred, what is it that makes you think that this book is still relevant in 2025, given that it's events based in 1999?

DANIELLE BINKS: I think for me, when I was researching it, I couldn't believe that Operation Safe Haven and the Kosovo War remains Australia's largest ever humanitarian exercise. We haven't before or since helped refugees to that extent ever again. But we've still had more wars and conflicts around the world than ever before.

We're also going to see more migrants and refugees because of climate catastrophe being moved around the globe. I say that the study of geography, which I hated when I was in school, but researching for this, I came to really find it quite beautiful because I'm a huge history nerd. And I never realised that geography is basically history-- it's people who draw the maps-- and that the study of geography is just the study of how people move across the Earth's surface.

And of course, one of the 2 main things for that is conflict and just dire consequences, where you can no longer live where you grew up for whatever reason, whether that's because of conflict or because the sea tides are rising or something is becoming so uninhabitable because of heat.

And I just couldn't believe that Australia did this amazing, incredible thing in 1999, because where I was sitting in 2016, we had the United Nations claiming that we were treating refugees torturously. And no one in the Australian government, apart from a few minor parties, were really talking about that. Everyone just sort of accepted that, well, yes. That's how we treat them now. We ship them offshore.

We leave them in indefinite detention, in permanent limbo, permanent liminal space, which is also really, as someone who's drawn to books about middle grade and young adults, that liminal time between adulthood. So, all these kind of liminal connections of just leaving people in limbo who have gone through utter crises.

And I just thought, what if I wrote a book about the last time that we did the decent thing, where Australia recognised we were a part of the global community and we helped, and it wasn't a foregone conclusion that we were going to help? There was pressure from the public on the government, which was a John Howard government at the time as well. And initially Philip Ruddock said it would just be really inappropriate to fly planeloads of people into the country. And then he did.

And people are really shocked that it was a John Howard-era policy to help these refugees. And we haven't done it before or since. But there are photographs of John Howard meeting and greeting refugees in the airport hangar, beside the Qantas plane that just flew thousands of them in. And I show that to kids, and they cannot imagine an Australian Prime Minister ever doing that again. And I kind of want to draw a spotlight to this and say, 'Isn't that sad? We did it once. Why can't we do it again.'

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. We've got the blueprint. We could do it better.

DANIELLE BINKS: Yeah. And kids totally get that connection without me having to state it. When I start saying, 'Look at these photos.' And there's photos of Bill Clinton over in the US doing the same thing for Kosovar Albanian refugees that they took over there. And again, they can't imagine a Donald Trump doing that ever. They make the connections, and I find that beautiful. But it's just me putting it out there that this is a true history, and why can't we repeat it?

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, and just the relevance that something, from a student's perspective-- doesn't feel like it to us-- but from a student's perspective, happened so long ago.

DANIELLE BINKS: The 1900s, as I mentioned. Yes. Yep.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] When I was also in primary school. Before we move on to talking about your young adult titles, let's come back to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say that your young reader that we met earlier is standing between the bookshelves and has now devoured both 'Six Summers of Tash and Leopold' and 'The Year the Maps Changed' and is after something that will scratch the same itch, or at least a similar one. What books would you suggest that they try next?

DANIELLE BINKS: Gosh. The aforementioned, yeah, Fiona Wood, Cath Crowley, Zana Fraillon's 'The Bone Sparrow' as well--

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. I can see very clear links between those.

DANIELLE BINKS: --which I love and adore, with such a full heart. I absolutely love that book. I love everything that she writes. I also feel like authors like Shivaun Plozza, Will Kostakis, Melina Marchetta, aforementioned. Dare I put my name in the same breath as Queen Melina, who is perhaps my favourite author. But I think I would-- anything that big hearted.

But Zana Fraillon's 'The Bone Sparrow' in particular-- if you want to go down the rabbit hole of looking at refugees and asylum seekers and how we treat them, I think 'The Bone Sparrow' would be maybe a number-one recommendation.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. Stories that are definitely full of heart and very strong characterisation and deal with some really big issues as well, but very appropriate for that middle grade, some of those young adult formats. Those are some really wonderful recommendations for what to move on to next.

Moving on to your young adult titles now, your first foray into writing was with the 'Begin, End, Begin: A #LoveOzYA Anthology', which you both edited and contributed to, and it won the 2018 Book Industry Awards for the Year for Older Children. It features on the 7 to 9 PRC book list and is what I would consider an essential part of any high school library collection. Could you give us your 'between the bookshelves' pitch for it?

DANIELLE BINKS: This collection was created in response to, I would say, a lack of representation on the most-borrowed lists of Australian YA titles. This was back in the day when the Australian Library Association started releasing their most-borrowed lists of public libraries, so, not school libraries, public libraries. And on 3 of the categories of adult fiction, adult non-fiction and children's books, it was evenly split. And the top 10 most borrowed it was always 5 international authors and 5 Australian.

But on the YA list, it was pretty much all American titles. And it was what you would expect. It was the stuff that was being adapted into film. It was 'Maze Runner', 'Hunger Games', 'Divergent', which I always crack a joke, and kids laugh, where I call it 'Detergent' because I sometimes forget that word.

So, it was just very poor showing. And there was sort of leaking into this wider discussion about, hey, we're being very Americanised in our youth literature of YA in particular, partly because that was what was being adapted at a really high rate. And I love these adaptations, let me be very, very clear. Jenny Han's 'To All the Boys I've Loved Before' and 'The Summer I Turned Pretty'. Cassandra Clare always being adapted.

Back in the days, it was John Green everything, and 'Twilight' absolutely had a big hand in informing Hollywood that, hey, YA should be tapped for adaptation. And we see it now at a huge rate because of streaming services. And sometimes we benefit from that-- 'Uglies' by Scott Westerfeld, who we claim as Australian because there is a connection via his wife.

JADE ARNOLD: We'll claim anything that we can.

DANIELLE BINKS: We'll absolutely claim anything. But it was part of this discussion of hey, our teenagers are not necessarily seeking out Australian books because they don't necessarily care. And that's completely fine. They just want to read whatever they want to read. And that's absolutely perfect.

But it was a conversation about how do we subtly start explaining to them that they probably should be interested in the books of their own backyard.

JADE ARNOLD: Because there's some fantastic examples.

DANIELLE BINKS: Because we have some amazing authors. And there are just some subjects that we touch on in Aussie YA, that Americans just will not care about and vice versa.

So, I would say something like gun control has a very different meaning for American YA literature than it does for Australian. Climate change, also a much bigger, I would say, role-- it should be everywhere, but in Australia in particular-- with kids who are seeing summer bushfires every year of their life now.

When we delve into cli-fi and climate fiction, like some wonderful-- Mark Smith does and Ambelin Kwaymullina does-- when we delve into that, it just means something very different for us. So, we just wanted to start having this subtle conversation with teenagers about, hey, you should read the books of your own backyard.

And behind that was also thinking, you're going to grow into an adult who's going to be a reader and hopefully a reader of Australian fiction so we can keep this entire industry and platform going and the cultural relevance and letting Australians know that our stories matter and that we have a voice and that we have places carved out for our storytellers. So, that was the inspiration behind it.

JADE ARNOLD: Wonderful. I have to confess, that was the first time that I'd come across some of our Australian YA authors, who are now on my instant buyer list. So, people like Ellie Marney, Amie Kaufman, Lili Wilkinson, if I see those books on a bookshelf, I buy them. I don't even read the blurb.

DANIELLE BINKS: That was the idea. That's perfect.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. And there was a few on there that I'd already been kind of familiar with. So, Will Kostakis, I'd already discovered his works and, again, another instant buy for Australian fiction for me. But it just really highlights how anthologies like these are such a good way for readers to find new writers that they love.

I also wanted to point out to all of our listeners out there that all the authors that feature in 'Begin, End, Begin' also have other titles of their own on the PRC book list. And that just to me, really highlights the quality and the strength of their writing and why you should check it out.

DANIELLE BINKS: Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: So, last but certainly not least, your first young adult novel was 'The Monster of Her Age', which also features on the 7 to 9 book list. And it won the 2022 Indie Book Award in the Young Adult category. Can you tell us about this title and who you think would enjoy reading it?

DANIELLE BINKS: This was inspired by a Linda Blair quote that I read. Linda Blair, who famously played the child actor in 'The Exorcist' horror film, where she once said, "'The Exorcist' has been a very interesting cross to bear.' Which is funny on a few levels, I will say.

But it got me. I'm a huge movie buff. I love film and television, and I love the history of film in Hollywood. I'm just a little bit obsessed with it. And I, at the same time, recognise that Hollywood is terrible for kids. It's terrible for a lot of people-- women as well, absolutely not great representation-- but children in particular, the number of horror stories you hear about child actors.

So, I wanted to write about that. And I wrote about it kind of inspired by Taylor Jenkins Reid, who's an adult author who often plays around and manipulates our real history and just pops in her own timeline. So, I did that. I made in-- bowing to one of my favourite actors and people, Drew Barrymore, who comes from the Barrymore acting dynasty-- I made a Hobart-based family who was a thespian creative cultural institution in Australia, who had this very long history of actors.

And I wrote a story about their youngest child, whose grandmother encouraged her to go into acting of a horror film, where she played the child monster in a horror film and had to grow up with being that cultural touchstone for people, of being the thing that people fear, similar to Linda Blair in 'The Exorcist', so, you can imagine Halloween masks made of their monster-child character.

They suffered a little bit of abuse on the set to do with emotional manipulation and also emotional manipulation from their grandmother, who pushed them into this particular job that they really didn't want to do. But it's about forgiveness as well, because when the book begins, the grandmother is on her deathbed.

And this teenage character, who's now grown up but is still carrying the weight of their reputation and their film history, has to find a way to acknowledge that their grandmother hurt them, that they have some family trauma. But they have to not move on, not forget, but they have to find a way to carry it. And there is also a queer romance in there, which I loved and adored writing.

And it's a bit of an homage to Hobart, which I love and adore as well. And I selected Hobart because of the Errol Flynn connection. But also, I just wanted the kind of old school, small community vibe of it. So, yes, it's my homage to making up a film history with threads of real Australian film history. And it's me talking about the ways that adults can hurt kids and the ways that kids can articulate and acknowledge that hurt and find a way to carry it.

JADE ARNOLD: Beautiful. So, obviously, this book deals with a lot more mature themes than your previous 2 that we've talked about, your previous 2 middle grade titles. So, what type of reader do you think would really enjoy this one?

DANIELLE BINKS: Again, all those big feels-- Will Kostakis is a really great one. I feel like Will Kostakis does really beautiful family trauma with humour as well and with romance. So, I think he's a really good one. Again, Melina Marchetta for the same reasons as well, absolutely.

But I would just say, if you are a fan of movie history, if you're a fan of Drew Barrymore, probably this will be a book for you. If you're just interested in the history of child actors or just the history of film and television. And if you just want to see a slightly different Australian history brought to the forefront, this is probably the book for you.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. So, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask you this, so, tell me off if I'm not. But are you able to share if there's another Danielle Binks book in the works. Are you able to tell us what it's going to be about?

DANIELLE BINKS: If I share this, then this is good. This is me committing and holding myself accountable. So, this is good.

JADE ARNOLD: OK. It's been published now.

DANIELLE BINKS: So, yeah. So, if I put this out there, and people start asking me what's happening with that book that you mentioned, then this is really great. I think I'm going to stick with middle grade. And I think I'm actually going to go back to similar to 'The Year the Maps Changed', a historic middle grade, but true history, this time not 1999. I'm going to go back to the First World War.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh. OK.

DANIELLE BINKS: But on the home front. I'm interested in internment during World War I, so, when people were vilified for being from the enemy home countries, and how Australia treated them. And, yes, that's what I want to write about. So, like I said, I've just made myself accountable by saying this.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs] Well, thank you.

DANIELLE BINKS: It's going to be history because I also find writing to the parameters of history a little bit comforting, that there's a endpoint and a beginning point kind of naturally gifted to you. And you have to choose the time that you want to put it in.

JADE ARNOLD: And do a lot of research.

DANIELLE BINKS: Yes. I love research. I'm still a history nerd. So, I'm deep into research territory now.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Well, that sounds very exciting. Very much looking forward to reading that one when it comes out. And thank you for sharing that with us. So, can I also ask, what are some of the books that have inspired or shaped you as a reader and as a writer as well? And are there any specific books out there that you'd recommend to any aspiring young writers?

DANIELLE BINKS: Well, I think, as we've mentioned, Queen Melina Marchetta kind of kicked off my love of Australian YA in particular. I just remember reading 'Looking for Alibrandi' and being amazed that somebody wrote about Sydney, though I'm a Melburnian. I didn't live there. I've had family here. I've travelled here many times. And I just couldn't believe that Sydney became a character in those books. And it really made me feel like, oh, our stories matter. It matters where you set a story.

JADE ARNOLD: And it felt Australian.

DANIELLE BINKS: And it felt Australian. That's a cultural touchstone for you.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely.

DANIELLE BINKS: That was just incredible to me. And I had the same feeling when I read 'Playing Beatie Bow' by Ruth Park, which I know is kind of old school now. But I remember reading about The Rocks. And every time I go to The Rocks in Sydney, I still walk around there looking for a fuzzy little girl because I remember that book. I remember how great it was that Sydney became a landmark in that story. So, those kind of feels.

But Melina Marchetta absolutely got me hooked on reading Aussie YA in particular, to the point that I then craved stories of my own backyard with places that I recognise and characters who felt real to me and like I could be friends with them. And I do still feel that about all of Melina Marchetta's characters, even though I reread her books now as an older person, as an adult, and I start finding myself aligning more with the adult characters.

I still feel and I love the perspective of the teenagers, but it's amazing how multifaceted her books are, that they are multi-generational, truly. And you can read them at different times in your own life and really connect with them at different points in your own life.

JADE ARNOLD: And get different things out of them.

DANIELLE BINKS: Absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Wonderful. Something that our listeners may not know about you is that you're also a literary agent. So, that means you're pretty knowledgeable about the Australian publishing industry. So, with that experience in mind, if you had any words of wisdom to share with the teacher librarians in NSW about what types of books to keep an eye out for when they're developing their library collection, what would they be?

DANIELLE BINKS: I know literacy is a really big discussion amongst schools right now. We've had the COVID years that really disrupted a lot of education. But I also know that kids more than ever have devices that are pulling them away from reading for joy, et cetera. I do think 2 forms of literature that you should really lean into-- verse novels. I think verse novels are incredible.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. Agree.

DANIELLE BINKS: I represent Karen Comer, who just won the CBCA Book Award for 'Grace Notes' in 2024 for the older readers, which is a beautiful novel. She also has 'Sunshine on Vinegar Street'. I think verse novels are incredible. Kids love music, and they totally get lyrics. Think about how many kids are obsessed with Taylor Swift bridges.

Right?

If you can say to them, verse novels are basically lyrics. It's storytelling in the same format. Just give it a go, and there's-- those books are still thick. So, it doesn't feel like you're talking down to the kids. But the ways that some kids can connect with story for the first time when you put a tempo and a rhythm to it, I think it's just beautiful.

I even tell older kids, Year 11 and 12, who are wanting to improve their language skills, I say, start reading poetry. Evelyn Araluen, 'Dropbear'-- we have some incredible poets in this country. And I think if you start giving them a chance and reading those books, you will see an improvement in your own language skills. When you have less words to work with, your intent gets so precise and beautiful, and your economy of language really increases.

So, I say verse novels. And I also think leaning into graphic novels a lot more. I know we don't have a ton of them in Australia, but we do have some really incredible up-and-coming graphic novelists. Remy Lai is one who's incredible for middle grade. I love and adore Remy Lai.

One of my authors has a book coming out in a couple of years, Briar Rolfe. Keep an eye out for them. They're going to be incredible. But I know the Alice Oseman's and everything. I think some teachers, or some parents, get a little bit worried that graphic novels are not the highest form of reading and learning. But they are. If you really think about it, you're connecting images and words, which is what we do in our everyday life.

JADE ARNOLD: They're multimodal texts. They're very complex.

DANIELLE BINKS: Huge. And then also, the level of creativity involved when the words do not match up with the images-- when somebody is saying something that they clearly do not feel on their face-- is just incredible. The level of emotional intelligence that graphic novels pull out of kids is absolutely beautiful and incredible.

So, verse novels and graphic novels-- obviously, they're all aware of how great graphic novels are. But verse novels, if you don't have any in your collection, you should start looking for them. They're absolutely beautiful as well. But yeah, both of those, I think, are great for those who are struggling with literacy or are just a little bit reluctant readers, which I don't love that term because they're just waiting for the right book to come along.

JADE ARNOLD: Exactly. That's something I always used to say to my students is that you're not 'not a reader', it's just that you haven't found the book that's right for you.

DANIELLE BINKS: Correct.

JADE ARNOLD: And something that both verse novels and graphic novels do is that they really help those students who haven't developed what I like to call reading stamina, that patience to see that story unfold. As you were saying before, the authors in both of these contexts are working with a very limited word repertoire.

And so, for someone who doesn't have that stamina that's built up yet in their reading, it's a lot less for them to take in. And they're gleaning a lot more meaning out of it. And it cuts out some of that stuff-- your exposition and your setting, and a bit more of the dialogue tags and all that kind of stuff that's just extra.

All of those things convey meaning. But if you don't have the stamina yet, those things can all be really overwhelming. So, cutting those things out just makes it much more approachable for someone who doesn't have that stamina yet. And, yeah, absolutely love both those formats for that exact reason.

Speaking about reading, what books are you currently reading? Or what are you excited to dive into next?

DANIELLE BINKS: I am reading Shivaun Plozza's 'Summer of Shipwrecks'.

JADE ARNOLD: Oh, nice.

DANIELLE BINKS: UQP book, which is just beautiful. And it's all about friendship drama as well, which I still feel like that speaks to my soul, as somebody who still feels the kind of slings and arrows or outrageous fortune of the school playground, and just the cold shouldering that I'd sometimes get from my friends. So, I feel like I can very easily tap into that feeling as well. So, Shivaun Plozza's 'Summer of Shipwrecks' is my number-one recommendation at the moment, absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. I love that. And for our final question today, I'm aware that you do school visits in your home state of Victoria. But for our NSW listeners out there, is there ever any chance of a school visit here in NSW?

DANIELLE BINKS: Absolutely. I'm here because I'm doing school visits this week.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing.

DANIELLE BINKS: Yeah, and also heading off to Brisbane and doing some as well. So, yeah, I'm going around to a whole bunch of different schools in Sydney. My publisher has very kindly organised this trip, but I also have Booked Out Speakers Agency, who I always say to them, if anyone from Sydney wants to send me over there.

And you can also find me on my website and just query if I'm ever in town. And I would absolutely love to come out and speak to any school. It's one of my favourite parts of the job, getting to actually speak to the readers that I write for. I'm very, very privileged that I get to do that. I absolutely love it. And teacher librarians, you know that you own my heart. So, if you ask me to be anywhere, I'll be there with bells on, absolutely.

JADE ARNOLD: Look, as a teacher librarian, I can say having author visits was always one of the highlights of the year and always made such a big impact on students. So, definitely worth checking out if you can organise it.

Danielle, Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your books. And I have no doubt that there'll be teacher librarians all across NSW racing out to purchase your titles if they don't have them already or to feature them in book displays or book talks, and many, many more students diving into your books as they work to complete the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge.

DANIELLE BINKS: Thank you so much. Happy reading, everybody.

JADE ARNOLD: Happy reading.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'. This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education, as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission. Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 2 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by the incredibly talented Matt Ottley, who's an artist, illustrator and composer. Matt has more than 40 picture books to his name, and a number of these, including 'Stickboy', 'How to Make a Bird', 'The Incredible Freedom Machines', 'Crusts', 'Suri's Wall' and much more feature on our PRC book lists ranging from the K to 2 to the 7 to 9 book list.

Matthew also created the artwork for the 2025 Premier's Reading Challenge, titled 'Dance of the Jellyfish', and composed a piece of music by the same name, which you just heard in our podcast introduction.

Matt, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

MATT OTTLEY: Thank you, Jade. I'm very well, thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: That's lovely to hear. Now, Matt, you and I have had a massive day today at the Arts Unit in Lewisham. We've just come off the back of recording your composition, which was performed by our Arts Unit ensemble students. And I have so many questions to ask you about the musical process and the interconnection between art and music. But before we get there, I'd like to chat with you about some of your most recent picture books now that the Premier's Reading Challenge is open to students.

Your most recent release is 'Stickboy', which was written by Rebecca Young and illustrated by yourself. And it features on the 5 to 6 book list. If we were to imagine a student standing between the bookshelves looking for a picture book to read, what would you say to them to convince them to pick up this book?

MATT OTTLEY: Wow, that's a great question.

JADE ARNOLD: And a long one, too.

[laughter]

MATT OTTLEY: I guess, depending on the student, I'd let them know that this was, or is, a fabulous story that, in a very gentle way, is about some really important issues facing the world. But it does it in the way Rebecca Young can do with her writing, does it in a way that is not didactic, doesn't feel you're leaving at all distressed, and basically inspires you to think about what it's about and to think about the possibilities, because she is brilliant at illuminating the potential of human beings to do wonderful things.

And ultimately, that's what this story is about. It's about someone who has the most extraordinary power that's hidden within them. And it's a power that the hero of the story doesn't even realise he's got until he discovers it. And it's a power that can save everyone around him.

JADE ARNOLD: I think that's such a beautiful description. And there's that beautiful relationship between your illustration and Rebecca Young's writing style, where it's layered, and you can take that surface story out of it. But then it really encourages you to reread and stop and think about the images and the connection with the words. And there's so much to take out of that book. And the illustrations are stunning. So, that's a wonderful description. And I hope many students pick that up.

Some of your most widely read books on the PRC book lists are 'Parachute', written by Danny Parker, 'Teacup', written by Rebecca Young and 'Luke's Way of Looking', written by Nadia Wheatley, with a combined 8,000 students adding these books to their reading logs in 2024 alone. Why do you think these books are so popular and still appeal to readers, despite them being published several years ago?

MATT OTTLEY: Well, if I can start with 'Luke's Way of Looking', it's because it is a timeless story about creativity and about finding one's own sense of place in the world. And again, Nadia did what Rebecca does with that text. She did it in such a beautifully gentle way. It's a story about the ludicrousness of judgement and how all of us can shine, given the right kind of understanding of those around us.

There's a scene at the end of the book where Luke's shadow shows that he has wings. He doesn't have wings in himself, but his shadow makes him appear that he has wings. And the wings are actually the shadow of the teacher, who up till that point has been extremely judgmental and negative towards him. But he's finally been able to see that that is not the way to approach this boy. And so, it's a really powerful message about looking deeper, about not judging and about empathy, about compassion.

And I suppose that's what all of those stories are. Certainly, Rebecca's story is about how important it is for each of us to find our place in the world. And it does so in such a lyrical and poetic way, but underneath that, it's a very poignant story about refugees and asylum seekers. A lot of people do actually miss that point, interestingly enough. But that's why it's such a successful book.

And Danny's writing, it's eternal. It is just beautiful and poetic. And it really gets to the heart of what's important to the life of a young child.

You know, so, 'Parachute' is about a young boy who carries a parachute everywhere with him, just in case he's going to need it. And that is such a silly idea in itself, but it's extraordinarily powerful. Well, and it is powerful, but because of its flippancy. Danny is a master of that.

JADE ARNOLD: Mhm, absolutely. I remember 'Luke's Way of Looking' fondly as an English teacher. It was a text that we used to teach visual literacy to high school students. And it was always such a fantastic text to draw them in with the different styles of illustration and how you change from that real line-drawing style with very dark colours, to then juxtapose that with the colour and the imagination and the vibrancy of Luke's illustrations.

And I think the thing that always stood out to me as a teacher is that message of how this book really hammers home this idea to students that often people will think in different ways, and that can often lead to judgement. But if we can celebrate that and nurture that, that's where creativity lives, and that's where all these different beautiful perspectives come from. And that's key to unlocking creativity and growth within ourselves. So, absolutely fantastic book for teaching visual literacy to high school students. But I think there's a lot of potential in all those books that we've just spoken about to explore those types of ideas.

You have written so many books that it's just not possible for us to talk about each and every one of them on a single podcast. But can I ask you, which book, or if you can't pick one, a few books that you really enjoyed working on the most, or which book is the most special to you?

MATT OTTLEY: Well, they're all special. I've been in the privileged position of being able to choose very carefully the books that I've illustrated. And so, I've only ever chosen works that really speak to me. But if I had to select some, I suppose the first would be a book called 'Mrs Millie's Painting', which is one of my own texts.

But it's about an elderly lady who has an adventure in the top of a tree. And really, it came from my own childhood. I was brought up in the Highlands of Papua New Guinea. And I used to build cubby houses up in the rainforest canopy. And there were a couple of stands of trees in which the canopy and the layers of creepers over them were so thick you could almost wade across the top. And that's where that idea came from. So, that's very special to me.

Rebecca's books, 'Teacup' and 'Stickboy', are among 2 of my favourites. And that is because Rebecca's-- the light in her work, in her words allows me to explore darkness in the illustrations in a way that just gives extraordinary dimension and depth to her work, I think.

Similarly, 'How to Make a Bird', Meg McKinlay's text, is one of my favourites. That, to me, is an example of a perfect picture book text. It speaks to so many different age groups. It speaks to young kids who have no idea what it's about. And it was an opportunity for me to explore a state of meditation, because that's what it is. It's a meditation on letting go and on creativity.

I suppose 2 of the books that come from really deep within me are 'Requiem for a Beast', which is a work for young adults, because that's based on some of my own experiences working as a stockman on cattle stations when I was a teenager and a young adult, and most recently, 'Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness', because that is about my own journey through mental illness. So, that book particularly is the most profound statement that I have yet made to the world, I think, partly as well because I was given the opportunity to explore a very large musical work, writing a very large musical work to go with it. So, yeah, if I had to choose, they would be the books that resonate most deeply with me.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I would say, probably 'book' is not the best way to explain those 2 works. They're more experiences, because there's, for both of them, an orchestral piece of music that accompanies both of them that really enhances the reading experience. So, it's not just a single mode of experiencing those texts.

Now, I think you touched a little bit on your answer to this in the start of that last question, but what I'd like to ask is, how do you work with the author to bring these stories to life? Are you given the story and given creative freedom? Does the author provide you with some guidance, or is that process different depending on which author you're working with? And I'm assuming you're able to be a little bit picky with who you're working with.

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah, well, it does depend largely on the author. It also depends on the publisher. And every experience has been different. I should say up front, most publishers don't like authors and illustrators talking with each other.

JADE ARNOLD: Right, OK. That's really interesting.

MATT OTTLEY: They prefer the editor to be the conduit for any kind of discussion. But that just flat out doesn't work for me. So, the only author that I haven't had a close collaboration with during the working process was John Marsden in 'Home and Away'. And that's probably largely because of-- this is going to sound-- it's not meant to sound terrible in terms of the other authors, but John had such trust in my work.

He basically said, 'No, I will be happy with whatever you do, and I don't want to interfere.' So, I was left to do whatever I wanted to do. Now that, in terms of that text, was-- I don't want to say it was a relatively easy job, but it wasn't difficult, because there were so many ways that I could approach that text.

But usually what happens, and certainly this is what has happened with Danny Parker, because Danny and I are really good friends, we totally ignored the publisher and had plenty of cups of tea and chats over the work. And we really workshopped my illustration ideas, which then influenced changes that he would make in the text. And we'd get everything ironed out. Then he would take the text back to the editor and say, 'Look, this is my latest thinking. Could you just tell Matt about this?'

And so, the editor would duly contact me and say, 'What do you think?' And I'd go, 'Oh, I love that. Yeah, no, this is going to be great to work with.' And so, we kind of controlled the process.

JADE ARNOLD: Very under the table, though.

MATT OTTLEY: Very under the table, right? And there was just a brilliant working collaboration-- or collaborations, they were. With Kirli Saunders, it was kind of similar. She didn't change her text much, but we certainly talked a lot about what the book was going to be about visually.

I had plenty of chats with Meg McKinlay. The text, I didn't feel that anything from an illustrator's perspective needed to be changed with the text. It's a beautiful piece of poetry. So, it was more about me asking her about the philosophical background to the text, the influences of Japanese culture in it, and then how I reflected on that and how I could make some of those ideas my own.

So, we had plenty of discussions about that. And that's the way I prefer to work. I prefer to work closely with an author.

Having said that, I'm not working with authors anymore apart from my partner Tina, because we're a creative team. So, we have books planned together. But certainly, outside collaborations are a thing of the past for me now. I'm very proud of all the books I've done. But it's really going to be mine and our own work from here on in.

JADE ARNOLD: That's really exciting. Are you able to give us any sneak peeks about what is coming up? Or is that all very under wraps for now?

MATT OTTLEY: No, not necessarily. I mean, not under wraps. It's mostly focusing on this initiative that I started about 10 years ago, called The Sound of Picture Books. So, one of the new books coming up that we will be performing later this year is the second book in Tina's 'Monkey's Great Adventures' series, in which she takes knitted characters that her mum makes.

We either travel the world or domestically here in Australia, and Tina sets Monkey up in all of these situations and photographs him and creates these stories around the photographs. And then I write music. And so, we'll be performing the new Monkey book, which hasn't been published yet. But it's called 'The Messy Bath Monster'.

JADE ARNOLD: That's really exciting to hear. Thank you for sharing the title with us.

MATT OTTLEY: That's OK. We will also be performing 'Stickboy' this year as well. But I've got 3 new picture books, which we will either publish ourselves or I will publish via an international publisher, largely probably for an international market. And they're sort of in very early development stage, so, I probably won't talk about those at this stage.

JADE ARNOLD: Still, it's very exciting to hear that there's still plenty of creative things to come out of your brain, which is going to be really exciting to look forward to. There are often a lot of reoccurring or interrelated themes in a lot of your works, which, as an educator, makes them so incredibly rich to dive into and explore with students. In 'Stickboy', we follow an outcast who's been shunned by society.

'Incredible Freedom Machines', we have a girl seeking freedom and imagination in a world constricted by boundaries. And in 'Sarah and the Steep Slope', Sarah is confronted by a slope outside of her house that could represent anxiety, fear or depression.

Has this been a conscious decision, either on your behalf or on the authors who seek you out as an illustrator?

MATT OTTLEY: Great question. It's a little bit of both, and in some cases accidental. So, in 'Home and Away', I was given that text by my editor, who said, 'Would you like to illustrate this?' And as soon as I read it, it hit me in the solar plexus. And I have to admit, I was not really engaged with the refugee and asylum seeker issue much. But it turned that whole-- it sounds like an odd thing to say-- but turned that whole world on for me. And I became very much an advocate and very involved in asylum seeker support networks.

And of course, that placed me in the right position to fall in love with Rebecca Young's 'Teacup' story, because it was about an issue I had grown to become very passionate about. For Danny's books, he showed me a few different texts. And I said, 'Yep, I'd love to work on that one,' 'Parachute' being one. And again, that was because-- I guess not necessarily because of the themes the book's about, because he writes on a lot of different themes, but the way in which he expressed those themes, in such a gentle and almost whimsical and, at times, poignant way.

For a book like 'The Incredible Freedom Machines', the themes in that book kind of came about accidentally, because Kirli, who has become a really good mate of Tina's and mine, originally wrote that text as like a love poem to her motorcycle, because it was the thing at a certain time in her life that gave her a sense of freedom and escape and she could blow air through her lungs and see lots of country. And it was thinking time for her.

But because I have the condition of synaesthesia, motorcycles don't sit easily in my consciousness, because it's generally a particular sound that can actually be quite painful. So, I said to Kirli, 'I really don't want to do a book about motorcycles.' And she said, 'Well, whatever you do it about, can you at least have, if you create a freedom machine, have red on it somewhere?' because her Ducati was red. So, I said, 'OK, fine.'

I was listening to a song by the Moody Blues that has come from the '70s, I think, called 'Thinking is the Best Way to Travel'. And as I was listening to it, I had the idea, 'No, actually, I think reading is the best way to travel because it can take you absolutely anywhere.' And then it just dropped into my head, that is what the 'Freedom Machines' is going to be about. It's going to be about literature, about reading. A book is the ultimate freedom machine.

So, that led to me creating the environment in which the girl lived, because I thought-- I've heard so many inspiring stories about literature, about culture, about music, giving children from slums-- so, I've just recently read about a symphony orchestra in Venezuela that takes children from areas where they're vulnerable to the drug cartels and lives of petty crime, and teaches them how to play musical instruments.

And they all play in this orchestra. But what they've found is-- and it's spread, so, I think that it's touched the lives of well over 30,000 children there now. And the levels of drug and alcohol use have all dropped within those particular families, a really powerful indication of the power of culture.

But I think, particularly, if we're talking about literature, particularly about literature. So, it was important for me that the girl was in a place that is obviously not economically affluent, and whether she ever leaves the place-- she might love it there, doesn't want to leave, but literature will give her the freedom to think her way into wherever she wants to be in the world.

JADE ARNOLD: You've touched on so many things that will resonate with teacher librarians and just lovers of literature there, talking about how reading can often be a pathway to developing empathy, where you're talking about how the power of a story is what opened your eyes to the refugee crisis and the plight of that. And I personally remember a book called 'Because of You', by Pip Harry, which is about homelessness. And I can identify that as being a turning point in my perception of homelessness and how I interacted with people who are experiencing homelessness.

And absolutely, such a fundamental part of being human is just that ability to empathise through story, but then, also, to have narrative as a form of escape and freedom, but, also, a pathway to something brighter and better than we could have imagined without access to that. So, very, very resonant with myself and with teacher librarians. So, thank you for sharing that.

You have a lot of diversity in your artistic style. Your style varies from high realism to surrealism to your trademark twig-limbed characters and sketch-style drawings. How do you decide what kind of look and feel a book is going to have?

MATT OTTLEY: It's entirely what intuitively I feel the story needs.

JADE ARNOLD: It's that artistic brain ticking into overdrive?

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah, just sort of working intuitively. So, you've probably noticed that I often combined that sort of very cartoony twig-limbed, which I love that expression, character look with either a very painterly or sometimes realistic background style.

So, I do combine styles as well. And again, it's entirely what the story needs. A story like 'Sarah and the Steep Slope' is-- the backgrounds are relatively stylised and cartoony as well as the characters. But that's because I just felt that was the best way to present the idea of the slope in the story without it being threatening, but at the same time letting us know that it is something huge in this little girl's life.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, there's a lot of colour and patterns in that slope that make it very fun to look at. And obviously, when you've got younger readers experiencing that, you don't want them to feel overwhelmed or threatened by those images. But there's still very much that sense of isolation caused by that slope. And I think that artistic style carries that really well.

So, I recently learned that you're red-green colourblind, and you also mentioned that you have synaesthesia. How does that influence your art?

MATT OTTLEY: Well, the red-green colour blindness kind of doesn't, except that I do have to have work checked before I send it off. I did send a painting of Mrs Millie off while that book was being produced, and apparently, she had green skin.

JADE ARNOLD: [laughs]

MATT OTTLEY: So, I do make mistakes. But I think it's also kind of given me a freedom as well, in that if it looks right, it must be OK. And it's my sense of aesthetic against sort of everyone else's when they're telling me it's wrong. And obviously, the colour of a person's skin, from whatever part of the world they are, has to be recognisable as their skin colour, otherwise it probably looks a bit surreal.

But when it comes to landscapes and the colours of other objects and images, it can often probably illuminate thematic material or moods that other people pick up on that, had the work been constrained by a very natural, realistic colour scheme, it just might not have happened. And one of my creative artistic heroes is Ludwig van Beethoven. And just about everything that we know of his that is very popular, he wrote while he was stone deaf. So, if he can do that without being able to hear, then I can throw colour around without being able to see a very small part of that spectrum.

JADE ARNOLD: That's so interesting. And as you were talking about that story, I just feel like Luke's way of looking, coming back into that, and there's a level of-- well, at least maybe I'm pushing that there, but I feel like there's a level of you in the character of Luke, who just has a very particular way of seeing things. And that leads to a very different sense of art. But there's so much beauty in that. So, that's so interesting.

We've kind of touched on this a little earlier as well, but there's often an assumption that picture books are solely for younger readers. But you have a number of books that are on the 5 to 6 and 7 to 9 book lists, as well as books that are aimed at adults and young adults. What do you think makes your books, and picture books in general, so appealing to older readers or just that art form in general?

MATT OTTLEY: Well, I suppose it's because both in visual arts and in music, I don't believe in playing down to children. I think children are able to appreciate sophisticated levels of artistic expression, whether it's words, images or music. And they will read into it what they can and what they want to. But I also do think that picture books are still, and I think for a long time will be, an untapped literary art form that has enormous potential.

But we are sort of still stuck in a cultural mindset that picture books are for children, that comic books are for people who don't know how to read well. And as a consequence, the kind of multi-layered sophistication of plot and expression of thematic material that you get in a novel can be expressed in its own unique way in a picture book and could be a really sophisticated form of literature for adults. But it's just not within the culture, not yet. And you do see it in other parts of the world. But I think it's going to be a long time coming to Australia.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I'm glad that we have your books as a starting point at the very least, and hopefully that continues to change over time. I imagine that there are a number of your books that stand out to young readers and will likely be stories that stay with them for years to come. Are there any books from your own childhood that stand out to you?

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah, there are, although picture books were not particularly sophisticated when I was a child. But I do remember there was a book called 'Go Dogs Go' about a whole bunch of dogs that have a party in the top of a tree. Again, probably because I was passionate about climbing trees when I was a little kid. But I did love Dr Seuss. I think Dr Seuss is a perennial, is going to be, within culture of literature for children, the world over, probably, for a very, very long time.

There was a book called 'Nellie Come Home'. And it was about a steam train that travels the world. But it was the kind of twisting plot that people did express in picture books, because picture books were often very wordy in those days. And I suspect that fashion and form will cycle back again. Picture books tend to be very spare at the moment.

But yeah, I think-- this is going to sound awfully self-centred in some strange way, but it was kind of my own work, because we lived in a place in the Highlands of New Guinea where we didn't get a lot of books. And in the later years, I was-- in New Guinea, ironically, it was the book clubs through Scholastic that found their way up into the Highlands of New Guinea. But of course, the turnaround was months. You'd look at the form and tick the box of which book you want, and then you'd just be waiting forever.

JADE ARNOLD: And almost forget about it before it came.

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah, but my mum used to get all sorts of recycled paper and sew it together into little booklets and then stick bits of cardboard on the covers and make these little drawing books for me. And I used to write and illustrate stories for the rest of the family. And I think that is where my passion for storytelling, and particularly for picture books, came from.

JADE ARNOLD: I love that even despite not having a lot of access to picture books, you still made them a part of your own life through sheer force of will.

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah.

JADE ARNOLD: Now, you have another lovely little connection with NSW Department of Education beyond illustrating the PRC artwork. You've also illustrated a phenomenal number of illustrations for 'The School Magazine'.

So, for our listeners who aren't aware, 'The School Magazine' is both the oldest magazine in Australia and the longest-running literary publication for children in Australia, having been established by the Department of Education in 1916.

The lovely School Magazine team very kindly had a look through their archives for me. And to date, you have illustrated at least a whopping 223 pieces of art, with your work going back as far as 2004.

Can you tell us a little about your time illustrating for 'The School Magazine', and what drew you to it, and how it differs from illustrating picture books?

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah, it was through the late Kim Gamble, wonderful illustrator, who was a friend. And it was either late 2003 or early 2004 that he came to me and said, 'Would you be interested, if I recommend your name to them?' You had to go through an application process, you know, they were good about that. But you know-- 'So, next time those applications are open, why don't you submit some stuff?' Partly because I think he wanted to pull back. He was working for them, but he was sort of trying to ease himself out of his own workload.

And it just became the most wonderful experience for me. Every time a new job would arrive, it was a bit like a-- kind of a lucky dip, 'cause that they had me doing mostly poetry. And it was just really exciting to open up the email and read the poem and go, 'OK, what can I do for this?' So, I had no idea from month to month what the work was going to be. But it was a lot of fun. And they were a fabulous team to work for.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, they spoke very highly of you and with great fondness. So, hopefully, for anyone listening, especially in a primary school setting, you might be able to access some of those older issues and see your wonderful work.

The next part of what I'm going to talk to you about is a little hard to do via podcast, because I'm going to be asking you some questions specifically surrounding the PRC artwork. So, if you're listening to this podcast and you haven't seen the 2025 PRC artwork already, please do yourself a massive favour and head over to premiersreadingchallenge.nsw.edu.au to see it.

I'm going to do my best to do its visuals justice, but you know what they say, 'A picture is worth a thousand words,' and I don't have the time to sit here and use a thousand words. So, it is this beautiful, whimsical, surrealist image that features a young girl sitting on a flying book while reading. There's this swarm of butterflies behind her, intermingled with her hair. There's also a mix of realistic and whimsical creatures flying through the clouds with her, including book jellyfish and book stingrays, which are my favourite.

Can you take us through your creative process for the PRC artwork? What was it like creating this artwork to promote reading when there's no narrative for it?

MATT OTTLEY: Well, the first thing I did, because it's how I work best, was to create a narrative. So, I asked myself a lot of questions about what was the story I wanted to tell. And I decided, because I guess it's a theme that has, as you've already alluded to, pops up a lot in my work, I wanted to illustrate something about connection, about belonging, about community, about working together.

Now, it might be hard to see all those themes initially, but if you look at all the elements. So, I wanted also to have a sort of a magical feel to it and to, I guess, tip lots of things upside down. So, if you look at the stingray creatures, which are books that are stingrays, a stingray is something that sort of has the motion of flying. It sort of flaps its wings, and it flies through the water. But, of course, this is a stingray that's in the sky.

Then, well, if you look at the girl, she's sitting on a book. But she's also reading a book, so, the entity that she's reading is also the thing that's carrying her. And if you look closely, the butterflies actually are her hair that morphs into butterflies. So, that's about change and about growth and about growing through a process that becomes something quite beautiful. Because I've always been interested in the idea that a caterpillar inside a chrysalis goes through this sort of period of struggle. And it looks like struggle.

And they emerge, and they're all crumpled up, and then they unfold. And that is the process of learning. That is the process of growing your imagination and your thinking and the power that is housed within you. So, that's what the butterflies are about.

There's a whale that is sort of in a haze in the distance. And that's just a thing of size and of awesome beauty. But it's also a mammal. And we are mammals. And so, across this vastness, there is a connection. And that's sort of symbolic of a connection to all things.

The jellyfish-- again, they are books that are jellyfish. If you think about it, jellyfish, they're not a single entity. They are a lot of different creatures that come together in this symbiotic relationship that allows the whole to exist in the world and to move through the water and to work as one, and yet they are all separate entities. So, they, to me, are the perfect symbol, metaphor for unity, for working together in this kind of perfect relationship. So, there was lots of thought that went into all of the elements.

JADE ARNOLD: That's wonderful. Now, this is, again, a hard thing to segue into because we're in a podcast. But Matt is actually sitting in front of me with an amazing jellyfish shirt on, which has got a black background with blue, with tinges of green jellyfish swimming around. So, clearly jellyfish are something that draw or resonate with you.

And I remember seeing some very similar sea creatures flying through in the illustrations in 'Stickboy'. So, there's that clear theme throughout your work and that connection with everything artistic that you touch that just has this very distinct Matt Ottley signature to it. So, it's lovely to see that connection. And I hope that little explanation was something that our teacher librarians listening can help unpack with their students and help them, I guess, enjoy the deeper meaning of this artwork. So, thank you so much for that.

You've also very generously composed a piece of music titled 'Dance of the Jellyfish', that accompanies this beautiful work. Can you tell us a little about the process of composing music that ties in with an illustration? Does the art come first? Or does it kind of all happen at once?

MATT OTTLEY: Sometimes it happens at once. But other times-- well, it can go either way. Often, I do a piece of artwork, and then I'll take lines from the images in the artwork and lay them on a music stave to create melodic lines. And obviously I have to adjust certain pitches to make the music work. And I will take other parts of the same object or other objects in the image to similarly create the vertical part of music, the harmonic structure.

And then that leads me on to thinking about the thing I've illustrated that I'm writing music about. So, in this case, jellyfish, so, I thought about the way that jellyfish move and that really kind of hypnotic, pulsing thing they do when they're going through the water. So, I wanted to recreate that musically. So, I just came up with a very simple theme that sort of pulses throughout the whole work.

There's a middle section, which is a little bit strident. It's different to the 2 sections that surround it. But again, it is based on the quick, jerky movements that sometimes you see jellyfish do. So, both originally actually came from improvisations I did, doing a live Instagram demonstration of how I work with music for the Literature Centre in Perth.

So, I was just sitting at a piano and had my guitar as well. And I just got thrown images at me. And one of them was a jellyfish out of 'The Incredible Freedom Machines'. And so, I thought on the spot, 'OK, well, it's that pulsing motion. What can I do?' So, the theme came out. And so, later on I thought, 'Oh, that's perfect, I'm going to use that in this piece of music.'

Similarly, the middle section was actually music that I improvised on that same session about bugs, but I kind of made it a little less-- the word is 'legato', so, a little less smooth. And you know when you sometimes see-- well, not so much in jellyfish, but often in smaller, like krill, you'll suddenly see a quick, jerky movement. And they move through space.

And so, yeah, it was kind of that idea that I wanted to recreate. So, often it'll be the image and the shapes and lines, and the colours as well, that inspire particular harmonies, particular melodic shapes, particular tone colours in the music. But then the subject matter itself takes over. And so, yeah, it's a very fluid process.

JADE ARNOLD: That's so interesting. Something really special about this project is that this composition ended up being a collaboration between yourself, the Premier's Reading Challenge and the Arts Unit music ensemble students. What was it like working with these students and having them perform your music?

MATT OTTLEY: Oh, it was extraordinary. A composer can never take for granted other people playing their music. And to have young people that presumably, for some of them, are right in the nascent stages of their careers as musicians play your music, it's quite wonderful, because there's a sort of a freshness to it there.

And the music team, Steve, particularly, the director, he was extraordinary, the way he worked with these young people. It was just wonderful for me to sit there and just watch this whole thing unfold. So, no, I feel very privileged.

JADE ARNOLD: It was a very special moment. I think our viola player and our cello player were both Year 10 students, which is just phenomenal. I try and think back to what I was doing in Year 10, and it certainly wasn't anything that phenomenal. So, yeah, just incredible talent, to just see your composition come to life with some very talented student musicians.

Composing music that links to artwork isn't a new concept for you. We've touched on this a little bit before, but you created this initiative called The Sound of Picture Books around this whole connection between artworks and music. Can you tell us a bit about this initiative and what a performance looks like?

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah, thank you. Well, it started about-- well, I suppose about 14 years ago now, in Perth. It was actually the West Australian Symphony Orchestra approached the Literature Centre, and I just happened to be in residence at the time, saying that they wanted to work with them to perhaps commission composers to write music around this new Australian literature for children and young adults. And the person who was the publicity person at the Literature Centre at the time said, 'Well, we just happen to have someone in residence who is a musician as well as an author and illustrator. Why don't you talk with them?'

And anyway, thankfully the orchestra was open enough to entertain this crazy idea I had, which was not just simply to write music, but to also demonstrate the process of drawing and of creating music on stage. So, it becomes a sort of an immersive experience for the audience. They get to see a piece of music. And the pieces of music all vary.

So, the shortest, which was for Danny Parker's book 'Tree' that I illustrated, that's between 6 and 7 minutes, depending on the performance. The longest I've done is a very large orchestral piece for 'The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness'. It's a 50-minute choral symphony. So, each show is necessarily different.

But for the shows where the works are shorter, we do a performance of the piece of music. So, it might be, for example, a string quintet with a piano. So, that's 6 musicians on stage. And behind them is a screen in which I've made a movie that has smaller bits of animation, but it's animated in that the camera moves around the images. But there are actually small episodes of animation as well, movement animation.

It all syncs with the music. So, the musicians, they're either conducted, or they have earbuds in with a click track. And so, they're playing to the music. And then I will do all sorts of drawing exercises. So, one of them is I just start drawing lines on the whiteboard, and the musicians are instructed to follow me.

And sometimes I'll draw with 2 hands. So, one hand is going up and one's going down, and different parts of the ensemble are following my hands. And it gets pretty wild. I get kids to come up. And they ostensibly, through drawings, start conducting the musicians.

And you see them just getting right into it. And they'll just go mad and scribble. And these musicians are trying to follow this. And it's a lot of fun.

Then I might do something like ask someone to come up on stage, and I'll draw their portrait. And then I'll take the lines of their face and put them on music staves, which are on a second whiteboard, and create music. And then I'll direct the ensemble to sight read and play the music. And I'll start verbally then directing them to do particular things, and others then, who are comfortable, to start really improvising.

And so, this piece of music grows that all began as a drawing. And so, we go through lots of that stuff like that. I sometimes paint as well and talk about the relationship in my painting between sound and painting. And then we do a sort of a reprise, a recap of the original composed piece of music, but the audience is now listening out for all of the elements in which I've been talking about, how I've used images from the book to create the music, et cetera.

So, yeah, it's lots of fun. It's a different way of introducing children to music, and particularly to art music in a way that they wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to do, I think, because it is all about tying all of the creative processes together. And it's making music play as well.

JADE ARNOLD: It sounds like such an exciting experience and also such an eye-opening one, and so very educational, but probably in a way that students don't realise they're learning because they're too busy having fun. Wow, I love that initiative so much. It sounds phenomenal.

Something that really stood out to me on your description of The Sound of Picture Books on your website is your description of it as an intermodal performance rather than a multimodal experience. What's the importance between this description and distinguishing between those 2 words?

MATT OTTLEY: Well, intermodal is a term I've coined. And it's borrowed from the world of transport. And I know that sounds very platitudinous almost or something, but when you've got goods that need to go from wherever they're produced to somewhere else, they might go on a truck, then on a ship, then on a train, whatever. They go via different modes of transport. So, the product is delivered to the customer via this intermodal system of transport.

And I thought, 'Well, that's a perfect sort of analogy, metaphor, simile for this idea of mine to deliver an idea, a concept, a theme, a story idea, a way of thinking through different modes of creativity.' I call it intermodal, though, because each form of creativity, as I've explained with taking lines and colours and placing those on musical staves and creating the notes, so, each form of creativity-- or doing that process in reverse-- really informs the other. So, then, it's not like I've just taken a piece of music that has the appropriate mood and set it to those images. The actual creation of each is deeply intertwined, so, that's why I call it intermodal.

Also, it's about the way the message is delivered. So, for example, in 'The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness', there's one part in the story-- because that is a book that I want to take people, my audience, in a very safe way, through an experience of psychosis. There's one section where the picture, the image, the illustration talks about-- shows that this metaphorical tree that's growing inside the boy that has flowers of ecstasy but fruit of unbearable sadness, it started to grow without and is encasing him.

So, you can see that he's being trapped. He's being held by his illness. But I wanted also to express the horror of what's going on inside of his head. That could only happen through music. And the words, all the words say is that eventually the illness was too strong for the medicine, so, then the image just shows us how constraining this illness is and how powerful it is in terms of rendering the medication ineffective.

But then the music, which in that part is a 68-part fugue, so, it's this multiple kind of-- there's lots of noise going on in the orchestra, and there's nothing you can follow, and it's just bedlam. And it just becomes oppressive, the sound. So, all those 3 things together carry the theme, carry the idea, carry the sensation of what it is I'm trying to deliver to my audience. So, that's also why I call it intermodal. It's the full experience of each that can bring other qualities to the experience that each form on its own can't, if that makes sense.

JADE ARNOLD: Well, I think you've just answered the next question that I had for you, which was, basically, for 'The Tree of Ecstasy and Unbearable Sadness', which for those of you who aren't aware, it's a longer-form picture book targeted at young adults and adults. Your blurb suggests readers 15 and up.

As you mentioned, you illustrated this 50-minute piece of music for a large orchestra and choir. And it's this incredibly unique experience. So, I was going to ask you why you chose to produce it in this way. But I think you've touched on a lot of that. But can you tell us a little bit more about that project and the inspiration behind it? Because I know it has a very personal side to it.

MATT OTTLEY: Yeah, well, I've lived with type 1 bipolar disorder since I was a child. Basically, I had the first sort of classic bipolar episodes emerge as an adolescent, which is generally when it does emerge. But I had the seeds of psychosis long before that, only realised much, much, much, much later, that's what was actually happening. But like a lot of people who suffer from complex mental illnesses, I have experienced the stigma that goes with it, that is unfortunately still here. It's just-- it sort of finds its way into the way we behave to each other in often obtuse ways.

So, you know, I don't want to go into depth on it. But, for example, one of the really horrible forms of stigma that can occur now is corporate indifference to mental illness. But it's also the impact of an illness like that has effects that people often don't think about. So, for example, it's been a very long time since I've been able to do the kind of usual author-illustrator talks in schools, partly because travelling messes with my body clock.

There are various kinds of stimulation that happens when you're on a tour like that. It's a recipe for ill health for me. But certainly, in Australia, that is practically the only way that authors and illustrators can make money. So, I've been a very highly accoladed author and illustrator, but it has also been an extremely difficult financial road, because I can't do what other authors and illustrators can do.

So, I got to the point where I thought, if I'm truly honest with myself about wanting society to change its deeply held views about complex mental illness, i.e. that people who suffer from illnesses like schizophrenia or psychotic bipolar disorder are not trustworthy, can never have positions of leadership, or in cases, people still think that are often sub-intelligent. Those sort of attitudes still do exist. It's going to have to be up to people like me who can express in a way that others receive my experiences to try and change that narrative.

That really was my sole purpose of doing the project, was just to give people a safe, felt experience of what it might be like. What they do with it after that is their business. But at least I've said my piece.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely, I think books, as we were talking about earlier, are this really powerful tool to help develop empathy and understanding in others. And I think, as a society, we've come a long way-- we're not there yet, but a long way in terms of how we talk about depression and anxiety. And there's a lot more representation of characters in fiction and in other forms of media that have those conditions.

But you're right, I certainly can't think of any positive or at least neutral representations of individuals with bipolar or schizophrenia that aren't then portrayed as a villain character in that piece of media. So, it's so important to have representation like that in our literature that we consume. So, it's a very profound piece of work and I strongly recommend the teacher librarians listening to this podcast to pick it up and read it.

Thank you so much for joining me today, Matt. It's been wonderful talking to you about the inspiration and the process behind your artworks and a career that has focused on bringing stories to life. I know our teacher librarians and PRC coordinators will be featuring your books on displays and showcasing both the music and the artwork of 'Dance of the Jellyfish' as they encourage students to dive into reading and hopefully diving into your adult books themselves.

MATT OTTLEY: Thank you, Jade. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

JADE ARNOLD: Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.

[intro music]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[didgeridoo playing]

JADE ARNOLD: The Arts Unit recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and storytellers of this place, now known as Australia. We are grateful for the continuing care of Country, waterways and skies where we listen, read and learn.

From here on the lands of the Gadigal and Wangal peoples of the Eora nation, and from wherever you are listening, we respect the Elders of the past and present and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

You're listening to 'Between the bookshelves', the official podcast of the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge. I'm your host, Jade Arnold, the Premier's Program Officer, Reading and Spelling, at the Arts Unit. Join me as I chat with children's and young adult authors and other experts in education and children's fiction as we talk about the books and the strategies that may spark or reignite a love of reading. Let's dive in!

[page turning]

Welcome to episode 1 of 'Between the bookshelves'. I'm joined today by a very special guest, Yvette Poshoglian. Yvette is the bestselling author of over 50 books for children and young readers, including the 'Ella and Olivia' series, the 'Puppy Diary' books, 'Frankie Fox, Girl Spy' stories, 'My Australian Story: Escape from Cockatoo Island' and 'Dear Greta'. Yvette started her career as an English teacher in South West Sydney and was the Premier's Reading Challenge officer from 2015 to 2016. She now consults on educational projects and works with the Technology 4 Learning team on projects like 'Everyone's an Author'.

Yvette, thank you so much for joining me for our very first episode. How are you today?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Oh, I'm chuffed to be here, Jade. Thank you for having me. First guest; I feel very special.

JADE ARNOLD: I couldn't imagine asking anyone else, so thank you for being available for this. So, Yvette, as you would know, the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, or the PRC, as we both like to call it, is all about being able to connect children and young adults with stories that they'll fall in love with. One of the ways that we do this is by carefully curating the PRC book lists so that PRC coordinators, who are often teacher librarians or classroom teachers, can feel confident selecting a book for their school library or recommending it to a student.

Having said that, we know that there are thousands of books on the PRC book lists, and we know that all students have really different reading tastes and preferences, so it can be super overwhelming to try and match one of the PRC books with a student. With that in mind, a big part of these podcasts is going to focus on a 'between the bookshelves' pitch, which essentially is an elevator pitch for teacher librarians or PRC coordinators that they can then use to make recommending a title for a student's next read a little bit easier.

Imagine, if you will, a student is standing between the bookshelves in their school, their local library or their bookshop, and they're in the P section, and they see your titles there on the shelves. Maybe they've got that little PRC sticker on the spine. And your job is to help them decide if they want to take your book home.

So, with that in mind, can you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for 'Dear Greta', which features on the 5 to 6 PRC book list, and tell us what this book is about and what type of reader you think would really enjoy it?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Awesome. Thanks, Jade. What a privilege to be able to pitch a book to the PRC coordinators and to the students. That's just a dream come true. 'Dear Greta' is really a book for ages 8-plus, so I would say readers who are in Year 3 and up.

Our main character, Alice, is in Year 6. I think Year 6 is such a pivotal, cool time for a reader, a student in our public schools. And I just actually really wrote it for a student who is starting to think a little bit about the world around them. They're thinking about what power they might have or what little power they might have.

And it's essentially a story about realising that you, even as one person, can make a change for the better. And the main character, Alice, doesn't really see this in herself at the beginning of the book. But through getting to know not only the people in her class and some of the people she doesn't love in her class and having to work with them, as well as also being forced into some weird situations at home, including her sister, who she hates, things actually start to change. And Year 6 actually ends up being quite a different year to what she started out thinking it would be.

So, it's got lots of ideas jammed into this book, but it also celebrates the power of librarians, because Alice's librarian is an amazing person in her life and really helps her find not only the impetus to write to Greta Thunberg, which is the basis for the book, but also to read a little bit more broadly, maybe think about things in a different way and actually get to start to understand what activism could look like in today's world.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. I loved the librarian character in this book, unsurprisingly, being a teacher librarian myself, and I'm sure many other TLs out there would resonate with that.

One of the central messages of this book was, as you said, empowering students that they have the ability to make positive changes for good. And it doesn't just have to be on a global scale, like someone like Greta Thunberg. In 'Dear Greta', Alice manages to find a way to bring her school's Harmony Day celebrations online and even manages to draw attention to the plight of endangered frogs on live television.

So, what was the motivation behind including this message?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: It's such an interesting time to be a young person. You've got more options than ever before to actually have a voice, and even adults know that they have these options now. But I think kids are really embracing new technologies and new publishing platforms. It doesn't necessarily have to be social media but actually understanding that their words can have power and that their actions can have power.

So, that was actually one of the underlying things. And that obviously, Greta Thunberg is just such an incredible figure that we've lived in the past 10 years to watch her literally grow up from being a teenager who had something to say and turning that into a worldwide movement for climate change activism and seeing that young people can have positions at the table to make change. I think her platform is incredible. She certainly didn't start out that way, but she had something to say. She said it through a simple sign and going on strike.

And even that massive approach that Greta took, I think actually is an incredible driver for young people to actually see that even small changes that they make in their own little world can have a big impact as well. And that's what my main character actually discovers is that through doing a project that she actually really doesn't want to do and was late to class for-- and she gets Greta Thunberg. She doesn't even know who she is.

It actually starts to make her really think about the world around her and ask questions that maybe she hadn't asked before about what's possible in her world and also what might need changing or fixing. And yes, Harmony Day is a backdrop, but also endangered wildlife is also part of that. But also understanding her family, especially her dad, because her dad actually has a really interesting past as well.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, he does. It's such an interesting journey and very inspiring journey that Alice goes on. And I really hope that students who read that can maybe see part of that reflected in their own lives and have a bit of motivation to do something good in their world, even if it's something really small.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Yeah, definitely.

JADE ARNOLD: Alice faces a myriad of challenges in 'Dear Greta', one of which is when her Armenian grandmother comes to stay with her family to recover from a hospital stay. Alice loses her bedroom and her trackpants, of all things, to her grandmother, and she's exiled to the sunroom on an airbed, and is forced to endure salad after salad after salad from her grandma. Despite this, Alice comes to appreciate her presence and even misses her once she moves back out.

What was the inspiration for this? Was there a personal connection in your own life that brought the grandmother character to life?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Jade, you haven't lived till you've had an Armenian grandmother.

[laughter]

JADE ARNOLD: And a couple of salads?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Yeah. Armenians are crazy about salad. They love vegetables in all their forms, especially with lots of olive oil. So, my grandmother, Nene, who is also called Nene in this book, has a very special bond with Alice that Alice doesn't really realise exists until Nene actually comes to live and takes not only her bedroom, but her wardrobe, and takes over her life.

And Alice also realises that Nene actually is quite cool. She's got her own friends. She FaceTimes them from all over the world. They're all living in different parts of the world. They're part of an Armenian diaspora that live all over the world-- and very similar to my grandmother.

In my own childhood, my Armenian grandmother didn't speak a lot of English, and I didn't speak a lot of Armenian, but somehow, we had a great relationship. And even though it was quite a number of years between us, we always could make ourselves understood to each other. And we had a very close bond, just the same as I had with my other grandmother. And so, I really wanted to explore this idea that being forced out of her comfort zone, Alice is actually put in a completely new place to really try and work things out.

And at home, which is normally our safe space, our bedrooms are our favourite place. If we manage to have our own bedroom, that's an amazing thing. But she's pushed out of her bedroom by Nene. And also, her sister is also just a thorn in her side. She's a constant thorn in her side. She's irritating, she's bossy, and they just do not understand each other. But they all kind of have to get along.

And what Alice doesn't realise is that Annie, her sister, is actually going to become one of her biggest helps and biggest supports. And that's also really cool, because sister relationships can be challenging and interesting and also the most rewarding ones you can have if you're lucky enough to have a sister. So, yes, there's lots of personal things, and it's definitely my most personal book because the character is Armenian Australian, just like me. And when I was growing up, there were really not many stories written by people with surnames that looked like mine and characters that reminded me of me.

And also, friendship circles, and my friendship circles at school, everybody came from a different culture, and I really wanted to celebrate that. And all the classrooms that I taught in, my students came from such interesting parts of the world. And when I taught in South West Sydney, I got to learn a lot about different cultures, Pasifika cultures, and I really wanted to include those students and their stories in this book as well.

So, there's a lot to cover, but it is a very personal book. But I've just got to say, I'm definitely not as cool and brave as Alice. And that's why you're a writer, because you can actually make these people and these characters come to life in ways that you just can't do it for yourself. So, it is a very personal book, you're absolutely right.

JADE ARNOLD: It's so lovely to see a book that gives students the chance to see themselves represented in literature, and then also other students to see a window into other people's lives and to really value the diversity that is in Australian culture. And to have that lovely little backdrop of Harmony Day just meshes it all together really beautifully. So, it's a wonderful story with wonderful heart in it.

One of Alice's friends, Anh, is battling with health issues that make it hard for her to attend school a lot of the time. But luckily for Anh, she's able to use a telepresence robot, which is a small robot with an iPad screen that she can drive around her school so she can not only attend her classes but also spend time with her friends during break time and socialise, which I thought was super cool.

Was this inspired by any real-world stories of telepresence robot use in NSW schools or through your work in the Technology 4 Learning team?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Yeah, look, both. Actually, where I'm currently working, I work in a team called Tech Enablement. Our team is called Technology 4 Learning, and I had the chance to work with some incredibly cool, innovative gurus who have been working on new technologies going into our schools. And we're working with incredible teachers who are trialling new things in schools.

And one of these things-- there are many of them now in our NSW public schools called telepresence robots. And they're basically an iPad on wheels that can be manoeuvred by somebody who might be in bed or is not at school or is at home or working from a different part, going to school in a different way. And these robots are really changing things for people who can't be at school.

And what is even cooler about it is that on the other side of the coin, when everybody else is at school, they get a chance to actually really understand the role of the robot. And that they don't actually respond to the robot like it's a piece of equipment. It's actually that person on the screen. Their face is there. And it's just been used in some incredible circumstances, and it gives students who can't make it to school some real freedom to attend school, still have their friends, still go to class, literally wheel down the corridor.

And I just think it's an amazing innovation, and I hope to see a lot more of that happening in our schools. And yeah, there's some amazing things happening out there. And I really wanted to celebrate some of the technology and the support that we know is happening in our schools, particularly for Anh, because she can't get to school. And also, just one of the other side benefits of being an author is Anh is one of my best friends at work. And so, I asked her if it was OK if I could call that character Anh. And she of course said yes.

JADE ARNOLD: Of course. Who wouldn't want a character named after them in a book?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Yeah, it's a nice thing to be able to do.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, for sure. And I just loved how the idea of that technology robot-- as a teacher, your first thought is, 'Like, OK, well, we'll have something over Teams or Zoom' or something like that. But then you're just getting the class content, and those students miss out on those social moments with their friends, and they become really isolated, and school becomes just about learning. And they miss all of those informal opportunities for learning and their interactions for socialisation. And yeah, it just makes it seem so much more about the whole student as opposed to just attending classes.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Yeah, it is. It's about the whole school experience. And that's why what happens to Anh's robot in the book that happens through a terrible accident at school that Alice just feels absolutely sick about-- even though something terrible happens, it is a way for them to both, really-- Alice to really examine what friendship means and how she can maybe be a better friend or have a good conversation with her friend about her life and where she's at. And actually, it's OK, in the end. It actually was a chance, really, to chat about things. And sometimes that can be the best thing to do-- sometimes the hardest thing to do, but sometimes the best.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Before we move on to talking about your other books, let's return to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Let's say that same young reader is standing between the bookshelves, and they've just devoured 'Dear Greta' and is back looking for their next read. Maybe they're after that title that will inspire them to act with courage for positive change, something that focuses on the environment or something that's written in that similar letter style. What book would you suggest that they try next?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: So, there's a few that spring to mind, Jade. There's a couple of new Australian titles that I want to recommend. The first one is called 'The Kindness Project', and it's by the wonderful Deb Abela, who has had a long-standing relationship with the PRC and is just one of the most wonderful people you could see in action talking about books. And this is a really positive, powerful book about how to make change and how to do things together. I thought it was a really special book.

I also really want to recommend a really fun book by Nat Amoore called 'The Power of Positive Pranking'. It's a really fun romp and set in schoolyards that seem really familiar. And again, it's about making positive change in a really fun way, in the way only Nat can do.

And then I've been thinking a lot about some of my favourite books that are maybe written in a letter format, which I will say was a very hard way to write a narrative. Great idea at first, but then once you have to do it, it can be very hard to hold on to that. And I started to think about some books that really had a big impact on me.

And it's not exactly the same, but I would say even reading 'The Diary of a Young Girl' by Anne Frank, which is a diary format book, which is obviously a work of non-fiction, is a very inspirational book that is very timely, and we should be reading. And lots of readers would know that book. And that book still has a powerful hold on me many, many years later.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Just a side note-- all the books that we talk about during this podcast will be mentioned in the show notes. So, if you want to find them or figure out what PRC book list they're on, if they are on a PRC book list, make sure you check out our show notes.

Next, I'd like to ask you about 'Escape from Cockatoo Island' which also features on the 5 to 6 book list and is part of the 'My Australian Story' series. Can you give us the 'between the bookshelves' pitch for this story?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: 'Escape from Cockatoo Island' was an obsession of mine to write and research, and it's still one of my favourite things to talk about because it's such a fascinating backdrop for a coming-of-age story, almost similar to the same age group of 'Dear Greta', in that my main character, Olivia, is 11 years old in the year 1879. And this was a really interesting time in Sydney. And a particularly terrible place to be in Sydney at that time was on Cockatoo Island, and it's a story that grabbed me and wouldn't let me go.

I had no intentions of setting out to write a historical novel, but it's actually a look at what was happening to young girls in our society at that time who were locked away for no good reason, apart from the fact that they were considered not very useful to the colony, and their stories-- and actually trying to present some hope that they did get off Cockatoo Island. So, this is very much a colonial story. It's a very particular time in Australian history, in a place that was very remote.

Even though Cockatoo Island, which is in the middle of Sydney Harbour, is actually quite close to the coasts and the other harbour foreshores, it could have just been in the middle of absolutely nowhere because they put kids on this island-- they put adults as well on this island and other prisoners. And they basically just tried to forget that they were there. So, this is a story about agency for young girls and the importance of us understanding what happened to young women in those days and how we must make sure that we never let that happen again.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. As we've mentioned, 'Escape from Cockatoo Island' is part of the 'My Australian Story' series. This series currently consists of 34 titles, which are all written by different authors, and they focus on different parts of Australian history after British arrival in 1788.

How do you, as an author, come to write for a series like this? And is it a case of you approaching the publisher, or does the publisher approach you?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Well, I have a very interesting past because before I became a teacher, I actually worked in children's book publishing. And I actually worked for the publisher Scholastic. And so, I had been reading many of these books over the years as they've been published. And Dr Anita Heiss had one. There was one about the bombing of Darwin. There were many things, actually, in my knowledge of Australian history that I didn't know about.

And I read many of these books in this series, which spanned many, many aspects of Australian history. And essentially, I never set out to write one of these books. But what ended up happening was I was actually kayaking. I'm a mad keen kayaker, going across Sydney Harbour every Saturday morning in this very ordinary plastic canoe, which was definitely not built for harbour rowing. But I just had this passion for it.

And one morning, I actually went too far, and I ended up out in the middle of Wareamah which is actually the Aboriginal name for these waters. And it's where the Parramatta River joins the Lane Cove River in the middle of Sydney Harbour and where Cockatoo Island is. And it was actually before the island was open to the public, so that when I got there, it was a kind of desolate place. It still is if you've been there. It's a very unusual place, full of slipways for boat building and old colonial buildings and sheer rock faces and vegetation and a very unusual sandstone quadrangle with these incredible convict-built outhouses in the middle of this island at one end.

And for some reason, I was drawn upwards to this quadrangle area. And I soon found this one particular feature which had the word Biloela on it. And I did not even how to pronounce that word for a long time. I called it 'Bill-oh-la'. I actually had never heard the word until I started doing some research.

Anyway, I knew from the moment I set foot on the island there was something to tell here. There was something to research. There was something to find out what had happened here. So, in a way, I think the story found me. It wasn't any other way that it happened than that.

And then I went and literally got the energy back to paddle back home, got back in my kayak, went back home, started looking into what had happened on Cockatoo Island. There are many, many layers of history on Cockatoo Island. And I just felt very convinced there was a story to tell.

And the story that I wanted to tell was about the Biloela Industrial and Girls Reformatory School, which was established in the late 19th century. And essentially, it was something that they trialled with orphans and young wayward women, as they were called. Women they didn't know what-- girls, they weren't women always.

They didn't know what to do with them, and they put them in this place. And they made them live in very harsh conditions and live among each other, and it was not a great idea. So, the setting was there. It's a very unusual place, yet right in the middle of the city. Yet people didn't really know about it. And that's the story that took hold.

And I think it must have been a few weeks later, I rang the publisher. And I said, 'There's a story here. Do you want to come out for a visit?' And at the time, I think there was one ferry that used to go there. And they came out, and she's like, 'I feel tingles running up my spine.' And that's how the story started. And she's like, 'Absolutely, we've got to do this.'

JADE ARNOLD: That's amazing.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: It actually was just one of those things that I feel convinced that the story found me and not the other way around.

JADE ARNOLD: What a cool story. I love that. How different was the writing process for 'Escape from Cockatoo Island', given that it was much more historically based? I imagine there was a lot more research involved. So, did this influence your writing process?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Definitely. And you know what? This was probably the longest novel that I'd tackled at that stage. I was still very new to writing full-length manuscripts. And I think that understanding the timeline of the history and what happened to the girls on the island were really good signposts for how to tell the story.

And with each book, it's different. Sometimes you know exactly how it's going to work out. Sometimes you might start off really well. And then for this book, I knew how I wanted it to start, and I actually knew how I wanted it to end. I had to do a lot of research to make sure that that was plausible. And then it was the middle bit that actually was the last chunk to fall into place.

But always when you're trying to tell a historical story, you have to be aware of the facts but also have to have a bit of courage or fearlessness to step into owning your character and putting them in a place that potentially was real. We'll never really know what it was like, but it does have to be realistic. And I knew that it was essential that at the end of this story, we had something positive happen because there were very many cases of girls on this island where there weren't positive things that happened to them.

And that's why the title is called 'Escape from Cockatoo Island' because our main character-- and actually another character in the book-- they escape from Cockatoo Island in the most incredible way. And there are recorded entries of some people getting off Cockatoo Island, but they were not necessarily children. And there are some astonishing things that I found out during the research period. But it took me a good, long period, Jade. It took me more than a couple of years to research and get it right.

JADE ARNOLD: That sounds intense, but it also sounds like a lovely fusion between, I guess, imagination and historical facts, and making those 2 mesh seamlessly together.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Yes. It was absolutely a crazy thing to try and do, but I'm glad I did it.

JADE ARNOLD: Let's return again to our 'between the bookshelves' chat. Our voracious reader has now finished 'Escape from Cockatoo Island' and is searching for their next read.

What would you suggest that they try next?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: There are so many in that series that I think students would love, and I'll recommend a couple. There's 'The Bombing of Darwin' by Alan Tucker, and that's also in the 'My Australian Story' series. And the other one that had a big impact on me was called 'Who Am I? The Diary of Mary Talence', and that's by Dr Anita Heiss.

And that's a really interesting story as well. It's a First Nations story perspective on the series that I actually personally learned a lot through that particular book. And I also had the privilege of meeting Anita and talking to her about that book when it came out. So, I'd recommend starting with those 2, but there's plenty in the series.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, so much to dive into. But it's good to know that that's a really good dive-in point for readers who really liked that book.

For our next 'between the bookshelves' pitch, let's move on to a series that our primary school teacher librarians would probably be very familiar with, the 'Ella and Olivia' series. And they feature on the K to 2 book list. And what are these books about? And who do you think would enjoy them?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: All right. So, Jade, there's a real sister thread running through here. Ella and Olivia-- Ella is 7 years old; Olivia is 5 and 1/2. They're frozen in time. Their little brother Max is 2. He's still learning to talk 38 books later, and that's exactly where we like to keep our little brothers.

[laughter]

They're there at the side of the action. But this is really the sisters' story. So, these books really have simple text, active voice. They're designed for beginning readers to develop confidence in reading by themselves. I get lots and lots of letters from readers and their parents saying, 'Hey, we've just finished this one,' or 'We love this one and then we've put this one down and then we've gone on to the next one.'

So, that's why there's also so many spinoff series of 'Ella and Olivia' because there's something for every age group, all the way down to the 'Meet Ella' series, all the way up to 'Ella at Eden' when she's in high school. And there's something for everyone in these characters, and they're just universally loved. So, writing chapter books for this age, I often put myself back in the mindset of being a kid.

And my little sister, who is kind of the Olivia in this series-- and it's the adventures they get up to, but they kind of can't do things without each other. In the first few 'Ella and Olivia's, they were mainly Ella's stories, but then I was like, no, Olivia needs to find her voice. And so, you'll find now in the stories that both sisters have to do things together to take the story forward and also to find a resolution to whatever crazy problem has befallen them in this particular story.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing. I imagine it's actually kind of tricky to write a chapter book for the 5 to 7-year-old age group. So many of the books targeted at this age group are actually picture books, and obviously they rely very heavily on the interplay with the images to be able to create meaning and to draw readers in. So, what considerations do you need to make when you're writing a chapter book for this age group?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Well, look, the amazing thing is that my illustrator, Danielle McDonald, and I have done so many books together now that we almost-- when I write them, I do have considerations for where the illustrations are going to go, and I know almost instinctively how she's going to depict that. But when you're a writer, you're really lucky because you have an editor or a publisher in the middle of this process that helps you organise the story into how it's going to be delivered through the words and through the images.

So, with these books, they're 2,500 words long. Each book is 2,500 words long with five 500-word chapters. And so, you know that something's got to happen in each of those chapters, rising up to the tension, almost starting from the very beginning of the story. And then it has to be resolved by the end of the book.

And I would say that Danielle and I are fairly in sync. And she knows she's captured the essence of the characters because she brought them to life. When I think of them now, they're the illustrations. So, she's brought them to life, and she's an absolute master.

And she's also a very busy lady because there's just so many books to illustrate in this series. So, yeah, she's extremely busy. But even though we don't live in the same city, we don't see each other a lot, we're always in sync with what we're doing. And she's just brilliant.

JADE ARNOLD: Awesome. So, it sounds like very much key structure and a good illustrator makes it easy to write for this age group.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Well, I mean, you're also very lucky. You have wonderful publishers in the middle of it all that make it happen.

JADE ARNOLD: Of course. So, let's assume our teacher librarian or PRC coordinator is standing between the bookshelves with our young reader, and they've absolutely devoured the 'Ella and Olivia' series. What books do you think they should move on to next?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: There's a few different series that I love that are a little bit different to 'Ella and Olivia'. Obviously, there's the 'Billie B Brown' series, which everybody loves and knows. And Sally Rippin, our Children's Laureate, is incredible. I really love those books because they have a little bit of mystery in them as well.

I also love the 'Ratbag' series from Tim Harris. If you want something hilarious, read Tim's books. They're just awesome. And I would also recommend 'Frog Squad' by Kate and Jol Temple.

JADE ARNOLD: I love 'Frog Squad'.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: They're so fun.

JADE ARNOLD: They're so funny.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: And not just because I love frogs, but they're so funny. And they're just very funny-- just weird and wonderful, but hilarious. And they just make me laugh out loud. So, there's just a few series.

And actually, I do want to give a little mention to a series because I love dogs, and I know lots of people love dogs. There's a series called 'Willa and Woof' by Jacqueline Harvey, and I would recommend those too.

JADE ARNOLD: Yes, such fantastic recommendations there. And I feel very confident that most, if not all, of those are on the PRC book lists, but they will be confirmed in the show notes. It's so lovely to chat about your books and hear your wonderful recommendations, Yvette.

I'd love now to draw on your experience as a prior Premier's Reading Challenge officer. I'm going to guess that we would have very similar answers for the questions that I'm going to ask you, but you've got such a unique perspective on this because you've run the program, you've written a number of books yourself, and you've taught in the NSW public education system.

So, first of all, why do you think the PRC is an important program both for students and for schools?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Oh, Jade. Well, you know this all too well because you're the officer and you know how wonderful this job is. It's just a real privilege to be in that position. And the Reading Challenge is an incredible program that supports wide reading and supports literacy in our schools. And there are many schools around Australia that do different versions of reading challenges.

But the PRC in NSW is just-- we know it's epic. It's an epic program, and so many students participate in it. And whether the goal is to read as many books as you can, whether the goal is to get a medal or you're aiming for a certificate, it really doesn't matter. The whole idea of it is to read more books and try different books to what you maybe normally would read.

And that's where the roles of our wonderful teachers and teacher librarians come in, because the PRC guides and your role in working with committees to choose the books that go onto the lists is an essential part of making that happen for students and making it easier for them to find these books and to branch out. And as you know, there are thousands of books published every single month in Australia and overseas.

And the fact that you're able to read them and review them and help those choices become easier for younger readers is massive. And to help kids recognise that reading can be powerful by having the signposts along the way and the markers of success is really, really important. And I think anybody that loves reading and is willing to step out of what they normally read and try something new, that can be a really simple act of discovering more joy in your life.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah, absolutely. The memories that I have the most fondness for when I was a high school teacher librarian was the students who would come in and say, I don't read books at all. I haven't read a book since Year 6 when we were forced to-- and getting them to read 5 of their choice books. And for them, that was a huge accomplishment for them.

And it's not always about completing the PRC. It's about taking the time to read and hopefully enjoy those books and keep searching for the types of books that you like or try something new and really fall in love with a book and enjoy that process of reading. So, definitely everything that you said there really resonates. And as you said, I feel so phenomenally lucky to be able to follow in your footsteps and to run this program. It's the best. And then I get to sit here and talk to you on a podcast. How great.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: It's the new iteration of the PRC. How cool? Podcasting wasn't around 10 years ago, really.

JADE ARNOLD: Right? Yeah.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: And it's awesome to see the PRC heading in this direction, and I absolutely can't wait to see who's next on your interview list.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you. Given your firsthand experience with the program, what advice would you give to a teacher librarian or to a school planning on getting started for the very first time with the PRC?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Gosh, there's so much advice. It is a big program to run, and it can be a busy thing to run at your school. I think the best thing that I would suggest is to reach out to your network of TLs. Your network will help you and give you some feedback on the experience of running the PRC.

And they can always write in and actually get real support from you and your team as well. And I think, don't be afraid. It's actually super rewarding, and there are plenty of people out there who can help you actually work with the program and log the books and work with the students. It doesn't have to be something you tackle entirely on your own.

JADE ARNOLD: And there's no right or wrong way to do it, either. Every school that I have spoken to runs it slightly differently and makes it work for their particular school context. So, I always try and give schools that advice is that you've got to choose what's going to work best for you and also what's going to be sustainable that you can keep up. So, it might not be as crazy and over the top as the school next door, but that doesn't matter because you're still giving students that opportunity in a way that works for your school context.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Yeah, definitely.

JADE ARNOLD: On a similar note, what words of wisdom would you like to share with school coordinators who've been running the program for a number of years?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Oh, I'd personally just love to say thank you so much for doing that.

JADE ARNOLD: I agree, seconded.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Because every time I step into the library now as an author, I see the evidence. I'm in libraries where it's celebrated and it's visible. And even from a really simple display that you might have or the bookshelf stickers that you're using or information that you're working on giving your students, it works. It's amazing.

And I just want to say a big thank you because it makes my appearance in a library just so much more valuable to a student who's doing the PRC. They may have read some of my books. They may have read none of them. That's fine. It's actually the collective act of reading and being part of something together which is actually really exciting.

And I know that when I was starting out in the role a long time ago, Jade, I did all of these deep dives into wondering how this program came to light. And it was through some really inventive, clever people who had actually gone out and looked internationally at what was helping literacy in schools around the world. And they cherry-picked the best of all the programs occurring around the world. There were some amazing models that they used, and I think what we've done in NSW is turned it into our own thing.

And it's got to be definitely one of the biggest in the world. So, yeah, I just want to say thank you very much to everybody who supports the program as a teacher, as a writer, and as somebody who did run it once upon a time, Jade. But I'm just loving what you're doing with the program.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you. You're absolutely correct. Without all of our amazing school coordinators, we wouldn't have the, I think, 436,000 students doing the PRC every year. It's insane.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: It's huge.

JADE ARNOLD: It's mind-boggling to think about that number of students, but also so exciting to think about the fact that this little-- it feels like a little program on this end.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: It's massive.

JADE ARNOLD: But it's not.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: It's not, Jade. It's huge!

JADE ARNOLD: This program is able to reach so many students and hopefully spark that joy for reading and support their literacy development in such an enjoyable way.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: When I meet adults who are like, I did the Reading Challenge. I love the Reading Challenge. I've still got my medal. And I'm like, good on you. Well done.

JADE ARNOLD: I love those stories.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: I love it, too.

JADE ARNOLD: Now, I imagine you have a pretty good understanding of the Australian children's literature world. With that in mind, if you had any words of wisdom to share with teacher librarians in NSW about what types of books to keep an eye out for when developing their library's collection, what would they be?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Well, there are just so many incredible books coming out every month, from fiction to non-fiction to everything in between. I absolutely love seeing even what's coming out in new formats-- so much to choose from. Obviously, I'm in this incredible world where I get to go to lots of book launches and lots of my friends are releasing things all the time. But it's really interesting to see, category-wise, what people and what kids are reading today.

For instance, poetry and verse novels are fascinating, and I'm so in awe of the people that write them. And like everything from Pip Harry's book 'The Longest Wave' to Kirli Saunders' book 'Bindi', they're, for me, some of the most fascinating new styles of books. I just absolutely love reading them, and they're incredible to read out loud. I think it's just incredible to see young readers' responses to those books as well.

I think in terms of our picture books that particularly we make in Australia, there are so many incredible picture books coming out all the time. And there's a couple that I absolutely love. A friend of mine, an illustrator, Max Hamilton, she's got some beautiful Australian books. I think my favourite one that she's had out recently is called 'Our Home'. And it's just a look at the different styles of home and what we can call home in Australia. And it makes you think about what home is and what home can be.

So, teacher librarians, you get to see what's out there. You're really well placed to see what your students are reading, what they love. Graphic novels are obviously a huge part of it. There's so much movement in the graphic novel world. Lots of people I know are working on series that we'll be starting to see coming out really soon. So, I think there're a few things that I'm quite excited by.

JADE ARNOLD: Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Now, I feel like an essential question for a podcast where we talk about books is, what are you currently reading? Or what are you excited to dive into next?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Well, I've just finished reading a great new book called 'Neeka and the Missing Key' by Tina Strachan, and it's just a lovely adventure set in a zoo. It's for, I would say, readers 7 or 8-plus, and it's just a good, old-fashioned adventure by somebody who knows a lot about this world. And it's got gorgeous illustrations in it. I really enjoyed that book.

What am I excited to dive into next? Well, there are a few different friends, as I alluded to, that are working on various graphic novel series, which I can't reveal too much about, but they're hard at work on them. And I can't wait for them to come out. But there's also a few new additions to the 'Ella and Olivia' multiverse that are coming out this year.

So, there is another spinoff series that's coming out that I've been working on with Danielle McDonald again, which will be heading out. And there's a new space that I've been exploring, which is the world of phonics readers with Ella. And that series is called 'Ella's World', too. So, they're what I'm working on, and there's some thoughts on what I'm looking forward to.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah. Well, hopefully in the next 6 to 12 months, we'll have a bit more of an idea of that. And we'll have to check back in, and maybe they'll find their way onto the PRC book lists. I hope so-- fingers crossed.

One of the projects you've worked on while part of the Technology 4 Learning team has been the 'Everyone's an Author' resource. Can you tell us where we can find this resource, and what teachers and students can expect to get out of it?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Well, this was a really fun one to work on, I can't lie. It involved a lot of wonderful authors from Australia who basically decided to share some wisdom with students. You can find it online. All you have to do is google 'Everyone's an Author', and you'll find it. It's pretty easy, but it's got so many cool layers to it.

So, there's a video from 9 different authors who basically talk about an aspect of writing. I think the one that I talk about is about building your characters and developing your characters. Tim Harris, who I mentioned before, he talks a lot about dialogue. Jackie French talks a lot about place. Kirli Saunders talks a lot about landscape and imagery and how she works that into her poetry and her writing.

And the cool thing is there's a fun video that's a few minutes long that you can watch, and then there are a whole bunch of resources to actually get started with your writing. I know that we're revamping them at the moment, and they're available. And you can easily find them and just anyone in Australia can find them. So, they're available on the Technology 4 Learning website or if you just google it.

JADE ARNOLD: That's so awesome. And I think definitely such a valuable resource for teacher librarians or English teachers or any teacher who's trying to boost their students' writing ability and confidence. But also, what a great resource to work with your students and then give them the opportunity to go and read those authors' works as part of the Premier's Reading Challenge, where they can see those features in those authors' writings and see how intentional authors are with what they're saying and what it is that makes one of those stories that really stick with us. So, what a fantastic read.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: I learned heaps.

JADE ARNOLD: Yeah.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: I learned heaps. It was great because in the video, Jackie is standing in a dry creek bed looking around at the bush, as only Jackie French could do.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: And she's talking about place and how it impacts on her writing. And she's just a powerhouse, so any tips she can give me is a massive amount of help.

JADE ARNOLD: Absolutely. While we're on the topic of authors, my last question for you is about author visits. Do you ever visit schools in NSW? And if so, how can teachers get in touch with you?

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: I definitely do. You can just email me through my website. I haven't done them for a while, but this year I'm really excited to get back into schools, so just drop me a line.

JADE ARNOLD: That's really exciting. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Yvette. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your books, about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, and about your work with the T4L team. And I am confident that this chat has inspired PRC coordinators all across NSW, both with how to run the PRC and how to talk about your books with our aspiring readers.

YVETTE POSHOGLIAN: Oh, thank you so much, Jade. And congratulations on a wonderful program that just, under your custodianship, is just going from strength to strength. Thanks for having me.

JADE ARNOLD: Thank you, Yvette.

[theme music - Matt Ottley, 'Dance of the Jellyfish']

Thanks for tuning in to 'Between the bookshelves'.

This podcast is produced by the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. For more information about our programs, to access our show notes or to listen to other podcasts, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

For more information about the NSW Premier's Reading Challenge, including our book lists, visit PremiersReadingChallenge.nsw.edu.au.

Theme music, 'Dance of the Jellyfish', composed by Matt Ottley. Copyright, Matt Ottley, 2024. Reproduced and communicated with permission.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements.

Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2025.