JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

ANNOUNCER: The views expressed in the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' podcast series are those of the interviewees and do not necessarily represent the views of the NSW Department of Education.

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Listen @ The Arts Unit

JOANNE KING: Welcome and thank you for tuning in to this episode of 'Listen @ The Arts Unit'. My name is Joanne King and today we are joined by Dani Brown, the publisher, editor and photographer for dance magazine, Dancetrain. Dani has a wealth of knowledge and experience in the dance industry and I'm delighted to have her here today as our guest and look forward to her sharing her insights into the world of dance. Welcome, Dani.

DANI BROWN: Hello.

JOANNE KING: We'll get started. My first question to you is, as the publisher, editor and photographer for the magazine, Dancetrain, could you please share with the listeners your experience in the dance industry and how you progressed to your chosen career?

DANI BROWN: I started dancing like most of us when I was very young. And when I progressed into the profession at 16, I left school, I did my school certificate and I left school and I did full time ballet training with the hope that I was going to go overseas and study at the London Contemporary School of Dance. My trajectory changed and I actually had to start working very quickly in the industry. So I couldn't go to London.

I met a man called Ross Coleman, who is an incredible choreographer and had danced with Fosse. So his understanding of that genre was just gorgeous. And with all my ballet training, we just really connected. And he had a show at Conrad Jupiters he was putting on and he asked me to come up and join the cast. And so I did.

So I toured all over the world and ended up coming back to Australia. The last job I did was Baz Luhrmann's 'Moulin Rouge', and I was Tarot the cancan dancer. So that was 8 months filming in Sydney and that was extraordinary.

And then as I was progressing out, I was doing all my training in pilates. So I was doing a lot of anatomy and physiology training. And it was so difficult to find information. There was one other media out there. It was very conservative. It was quite difficult for me to get through that. And I felt a bit like I was-- didn't have the academic background to get through it. So it made me feel a bit less than.

I would love to put something out there that connected with all dancers and that it was very inclusive. Very much at the time then if you wanted to hear about auditions, you had to be in the know, you had to be in this certain clique. And I thought, why isn't this information available to everybody? So we began Dancetrain and since then it's really developed into something completely different to what it started, but I think the base of it always is inclusivity and education.

JOANNE KING: With 2 children who also dance, obviously that's going to have some kind of impact on your trajectory with the magazine and along with your experience as well, what is your opinion on the importance of an aspiring performer completing their education before embarking on their journey to make dance a career?

DANI BROWN: I think it's imperative. The education and the support that the students receive at school within their performing arts and then in a much broader spectrum, meeting other people who aren't performing artists, all of that information helps to create a more mature human being who has a greater understanding of people who have come from different walks of life to their own.

And if we are creating artists, if we want dancers to be the artists that they are telling stories on stage, then they need to have that experience and they need to have those connections with other people who come from different places to they do, who were raised differently to how they are. And again, they will create a more inclusive industry that has greater awarenesses. So I just think it's so important.

And those changes, 12 to 18 is huge in a human being's life. So if you take them out of their cohort and put them in a much smaller cohort of very similar thinking type of people, it makes it quite difficult pathway for them to develop. And so then when they hit that-- and I just see it so often-- then when they hit that 17, 18 years of age and their parents have invested so much money and time and they've invested all this time, they've sort of built themselves into a little warren that they can't get out of.

So they need that time to go, I hit 17 and go, I really love to dance, but I'm not really sure I want to do it anymore and that's OK. But when they've cut off their education, they've cut off from their peers, they're usually quite small, the full time programs, compared to what you're talking about in a school. They're disconnected from all of that and at an age where they need all of that.

And some schools are amazing and they'll bring those kids back into the fold and help them finish their schooling. But so many kids feel like they've failed and they won't go back into the system. They just-- they get lost.

JOANNE KING: I know you're a huge advocate for it, hence why I've got you here today, because I think it's so important to have that education behind students. Did you see a change in the number of students that did depart school and go into full time during COVID, being a time where everything was sort of unsettled, was there a change in more students staying in school or leaving school in what you observed?

DANI BROWN: I think the change is now. Prior to COVID, we were at an all time high in terms of private, full time institutions. And although the huge hit that the industry has sustained as a result of COVID, a benefit I see now is that parents and students are seeing the benefits of having that ATAR, staying at school for that extra couple of years. And so they're now looking for more specialised programs within those academic schools so that they can do that.

And that for me makes this time really exciting. So it's like, OK, we're all-- you know, everything politically, you have to be in line, socially, you have to be in line. All those things have sort of come to play now, which they really needed to. So, yes, I'm seeing a lot more kids choosing not to go down to full time.

And it's interesting that they're as educated about it as they're-- it's not just coming from their parents. I mean, I was in Melbourne shooting Top Class and I spoke to a lot of top classes, the equivalent to callbacks, incredibly talented kids going on to university and still dancing while they're at university. So I think that change is really evident now and that's very cool.

JOANNE KING: What are some of the more common career choices you see dancers moving into once completing full time study after their formal schooling?

DANI BROWN: Health, physios, nutritionists, osteos, health. They just seem to really resonate with that connection with the body and they look for avenues that they can do-- and they do so well there. And I think they're very surprised. I've had a few dancers now that I've worked with during that transitionary phase, like Lachlan Mair, who was in Queensland Ballet, has now gone back to university and he's doing occupational therapy.

I mean, it's just-- he feels so gifted because he's had this incredible performer's life and now he's going back into university, back in his community where he grew up with, which is incredible. So yes, so many into health.

JOANNE KING: And I think having those people to look up to as a young dancer is so important. So across your ventures to various competitions and performances, obviously that's a large part of your role with the magazine. Who do you see as a positive role model or positive role models for young artists in today's society?

DANI BROWN: I think we're really fortunate to have a lot of fantastic dancers out there that have finished their schooling. So those type of artists that the kids really connect with that have gone-- they've finished their school, they've gone over-- you know, they're achieving great success. I think they're very fortunate to have a lot of people out there. I mean, every issue, I feature artists who have finished their schooling, who are working out there. Xanthe Geeves is amazing, now running her own institution and are one very much based on education. Come here, we'll teach you how to dance.

And so to have those types of people leading the way is just pretty incredible. Yeah, I don't think we've got a shortage of those, which is good.

JOANNE KING: How do you see the dance industry impacted by modern technology, such as AI?

DANI BROWN: I think dancers are fantastic at adapting to new technology, especially the generations that are coming through. I mean, first it started with them being able to film their work on their devices and look back. I see every dancer I speak to when I talk about their choreographic works, preparing them for their end of year schooling, it's how valuable a tool that is. And I then see AI coming into play in helping them get grants to get their work performed.

JOANNE KING: Wonderful. What are some of the challenges you see the dance industry facing in the years to come?

DANI BROWN: In the ballet world, it's about being more inclusive, less gender specific. I think that's the same in musical theatre and commercial. It's an industry that's still very gender biased and it's-- and a lot of the stories are quite outdated. We need the industry to evolve. We need all those genres to evolve.

The other thing that's really come in now and a lot more, particularly in Australia in the last 5 years, is Acro Dance. Acro Dance seems to be feeding itself into contemporary and lyrical. And I think we need to be really careful about how we label our genres and so that we don't lose that beautiful contemporary craft, so we don't lose that beautiful lyrical craft and so that we highlight Acro Dance for what it is. It's a genre that's here to stay. The kids love it. They love doing all of those tricks.

But the hip placement is very different to ballet and lyrical and contemporary. So I think as an industry, we need to really think about that and how we're going to move forward and help these kids, how to work their bodies in those genres and letting them understand that Acro Dance can't be picked up and put into contemporary. It's a very different skill. That would probably be my main one that I'm seeing at the moment.

JOANNE KING: If you could change one thing about the dance industry, what would it be?

DANI BROWN: I'd like it to be enough. Dance is so often when they're showcased in media, like a lot of things, the drama of it is really heightened. Their story of how they grew up is really heightened. And I think maybe because dancers are not fantastic speakers all the time, though, I do see that changing when they stay at school, let it be enough.

JOANNE KING: What's one piece of advice you can share with the listeners for dancers wanting to use their love of dance in their career as either an educator or a performer?

DANI BROWN: Stick with it. You know, particularly towards your end of year study, I know that the pressure can get very intense. Allowing you to get back into your bodies, for both our educators and our students, get back into your bodies throughout that time period will give you a stress release. It will give you that hormone injection that you need, that positive feel good feeling.

And it will often make any problems that you are struggling with much easier to deal with because you've come out of them. You've gone into your body. You've done something creative. Then when you can come back to the academics, you might find the pathways a little bit clearer.

And don't think of dance as something that we just do when we're young, that we just do to become professionals. To be able to work your body and be in your body is a lifelong gift. To have an understanding of the anatomy that you're taught in schools throughout your life is a gift.

And as a 40-year-old, as a 50-year-old, as a 60-year-old, it's an incredible gift to be able to return to that. Go, I'm going to go back to class and it doesn't matter who you are, what you look like, what's happened to your body, you walk into that class, you put your hand on the bar, boom, it's all back.

JOANNE KING: Thank you so much, Dani, for coming here today and sharing your wisdom with us. You are just so genuine and passionate and such a strong advocate for dance across the various industries that it encompasses. It's been lovely sharing it with you and thank you to our listeners for tuning in to this episode of 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series on 'Dance pathways'.

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au. Music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2024.