Video transcript
2019 NSW PRC author interview – Dhonielle Clayton

TAMARA RODGERS: Hi. I'm Tamara Rodgers from the Premier's Reading Challenge. We're at Riverside Theatre Paramount for the Sydney Writers' Festival Secondary Schools Day. We're going to be joined by some students from Galston High School, who'll be having some conversations with the fantastic authors on the programme. We're really excited to be able to bring you these interviews.

Thank you to the Sydney Writers' Festival for having us along. And we'd also like to thank the Premier's Reading Challenge programme sponsors; our media partner, News Local; and our supporting partner, Dymocks Children's Charities. Thank you so much for your support.

EMILY WOODS: Hi, my name is Emily Woods. And I'm from Galston High School. Today with me is the incredible author of 'The Belles,' Dhonielle Clayton. Hi, Dhonielle. How are you?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: I'm good. How are you? I'm so excited to get to talk to you. This is my favourite part of being at the festival.

EMILY WOODS: All right, question one-- as a child, were you much of a reader? And what were your favourite books as a young adult?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Oh, my gosh. All I did was read, because I was like a grumpy little troll. And I just didn't want to go outside. I didn't want to deal with bugs. I didn't want to be around my brother. I just wanted to have my books, my crafts. And so yes, all I did was read.

And I set up a little camp underneath my grandmother's table. And I would have a pillow, a blanket. And then I would have something in America that we call sun tea. And you make tea, but you put it in the window so that the tea-- not cooks, but it stews all day from the sun.

And I would wait for that. And I would have my books. And I'd have my sign that said, do not disturb. And so all I did was read.

And my favourite books as a kid were 'A Wrinkle in Time,' by Madeleine L'Engle. And I loved a book called 'The Phantom Tollbooth,' by Norton Juster. And let's see, what else did I read-- over and over again, 'The Hobbit.' I read it over and over again, to where my dad was like, I'm taking it. It's time for a new book.

So I read a lot of different kinds of stuff-- and a lot of romance novels. I used to sneak and read them, because I was really into reading about kissing. [laughs] And my grandmother had a bunch of them. And she never knew when I would steal them, so.

EMILY WOODS: Yeah, it's very relatable.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Yes, exactly. I just wanted all the drama and all the kissing and all that stuff, so, yeah.

EMILY WOODS: Thank you. All right, question two-- what motivated you to become an author? And did you have any pressure to pursue another career?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Well, I wanted to be a doctor. And I failed chemistry when I was at university. I just couldn't do it. It was really hard. And they made us look at dead bodies. And that is not my jam. I'm not into that. It's stinky. It's weird.

And so I thought I was going to be the first doctor in my family. And then I went to university. And I was really very grumpy, and did not like being away from home because I'm very spoiled. I like what my mum cooks. And I like my own bed. And I don't want to share a bathroom-- all that stuff, right?

And so then, once I failed chemistry, my father was like, well, you better figure it out. You better figure something out, because we're not paying to send you here for you to fail. And so I just started returning to the things that I loved to read as a kid.

And I thought, I'll just be a teacher. I'll just tell kids what they should be reading and be like, books, books, books, and be a book bully. And so I did that for a while.

But I became an author because when I was studying to become a teacher and to become a librarian, I had to do something called get a master's degree. And I had to read the entire canon of children's literature. And I figured out that there were a lot of kids missing.

And they made us take a writing class. And that's when I first started to write. And I thought, well, maybe I can start filling in the holes and make sure that every kid deserves to walk into a bookstore and see people who look like them on the covers. So that's how I became a writer. It's like an accident. I didn't really want to be one. Now I'm stuck. [laughs]

EMILY WOODS: That's good. What inspired you to write 'The Belles?'

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: OK, that's a big one. So lots of things inspired me to write 'The Belles.' but I think the biggest thing-- and I write it in a letter at the end of the book-- is that when I was about 12 or 13, I was in your typical suburban mall-- which is stereotype, right? You see them in the movies.

And I heard these guys talking about their girlfriends and their wives, and talking about their little body parts. Like, I wish my girlfriend had such and such's hair, or her legs, or her waist. And they were sort of putting together a new woman that they wished were their partner.

And that really bothered me, because one, I didn't think that guys talked about women like that. My dad didn't talk like that. So I thought I was overhearing something that wasn't real.

And then I realised, when I got to high school, that-- oh, this is real. People literally talk about women's bodies as if they're food. They really think that there is one way that a girl is supposed to look. And that really bothered me.

And so I wanted to create a world where-- what if you could change everything about yourself? What choices would you make? Because I know that when I was in high school, I was making a lot of bad choices. I had really bad acne and really puffy hair. And I didn't know how to dress. And I wore a uniform. And I just was a mess.

And I thought, what if I looked different? Would I feel different? Would I literally move through the world differently?

And so that's where the book really came out of. I wanted to create a world that isn't our world, but has that same question-- is there a relationship between the way that you look and how much power you have? And do beautiful people in our world have all of the power? And so that's where it all came from, sort of a mess-- [laughs] a mess of stuff.

EMILY WOODS: No, it's inspiring. Thank you.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: And I hope it opens up questions where you're like, shoot, would I change myself? And if I did, what would I choose, and why?

When I go and talk to teenagers I ask them, well, what would you change? And they have a list. Everybody has a list. Even the teachers of the students that I present with have a list of things that they would change, if they could do it by magic. And I can't say that I still don't have my list. So I'm trying to use the books to work out that mess, but yeah.

EMILY WOODS: Thank you. If you were to write in the perspective of any other Belle sister other than Camellia, which sister would it be, and why?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Funny you say that. This is a secret. But there's a third book. And it's from the point of view of Adel. She's my favourite. And I sort of wish that I followed her from the beginning. But I wanted to follow someone who wanted to follow all the rules had all of this privilege and wanted to be the best.

And Adel really is the girl I wanted to be in high school, the girl who doesn't care, who's like, I don't care about any of that. I do my own thing. I was not that girl. And I wish I was that girl. But I get to follow her for a third book, which will be awesome hopefully, when it's not a mess. [laughs]

EMILY WOODS: Yeah, it's exciting.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Yay! I hope people like her. She's very different.

EMILY WOODS: She is, right.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: She is who I wish I was-- a troublemaker, constantly.

EMILY WOODS: Throughout the series, you went into extreme detail to explain the materials and equipment used on a client to make them beautiful. Were you ever worried that you went into too much detail?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Well, I did the detail stuff on purpose. So one of my favourite writers is Holly Black. And the thing that I love about Holly Black's books are that she leads you into the dark woods, with all of her details. And then she literally consumes you. I call it like this dark pudding, where you can't get out.

And so I wanted to go into deep detail about the beauty tools, because when I walk into stores like-- do you have Sephora here, which is like--

EMILY WOODS: Yeah, we do.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: When you walk into stores like that, and you smell all of those things and you see all of the little trinkets and all that stuff, it's overwhelming. And it was for me, because when I was a teenager I thought, this is going to save me. All of these things in here are going to save me, if I just get the right combination of stuff. It'll get rid of my acne. I'll look different. I'll feel better.

And then I realised that all of that stuff did not work. And I wanted to go in the detail so that you could skip the detail if you wanted to. But I wanted you to feel overwhelmed by it, because that's how I feel with all the products. I feel overwhelmed when I go into stores like that. And with all of the commercials that come on and all of the stuff that comes at us, with the ads on Instagram, all the ways we can fix ourselves, I feel overwhelmed. And I wanted to create that sense of anxiety and being overwhelmed by being very descriptive.

So that if you want to skip it, you can. But if you read every single thing, it can start becoming-- make you feel anxious, because that's how I feel about all of this stuff, especially going into Sephora. I still get excited. I want all of the things. But then I realise, uh-oh, this is my obsession. This is my problem.

If you come and look under my sink in my apartment in New York, it's all full of, like, junk, all of the beauty stuff. I just kept trying all of these different things. And it's a mess. And so that's why. That's why I have all the descriptions.

EMILY WOODS: Thank you. How important to you is the representation of young adults from diverse backgrounds in your work? Do you believe it is important for all young adults to understand perspectives other than their own lives?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: I think that every kid deserves to be able to walk into a bookstore or a library, or have a classroom that has books that reflect them-- of all backgrounds. And so I'm very committed to creating books that you can find yourself in, so that if you're in my worlds, you're like, oh, there I am. There I am. And so that you don't feel invisible.

And I think that it is a responsibility for people who write books, people who write TV shows, people who write movies, video games, all of this stuff, to make sure that the work that they're creating tells the truth. And the truth is, there are a lot of people on this planet. And we might be different. But we have a lot of similarities. And I think that it's more interesting when we can find each other in the cool things that we love to participate in.

And so I run an organisation called CAKE Literary that believes that making a book is like making a cake. And if you had to read or eat one kind of cake your entire life, it would be really boring, right? So I really think of diversity and I think of books like that. I want to taste all the different flavours, because it makes it better, right?

EMILY WOODS: Yeah.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Yeah, so that's how I look at it-- like cake, and cookies, because those are my favourite things.

EMILY WOODS: I don't blame you.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: I'm trying to get to an Australian grocery store today so that I can get to the cookie section and see what Australian cookies are like, or digestives or biscuits, or-- I don't know what they're all called. So many different terms here.

EMILY WOODS: Yeah, so many. What helps with inspiration? And do you have any techniques?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Oh, boy. So a lot of people are inspired by nature or inspired by works of art. I'm really inspired by things that make me mad. [laughs] So that's where I literally start. I'm like, what I'm angry about? And then I take the thing that I'm angry about and I try to wrap a world around it.

So for 'The Belles,' it's obviously this connection and this feeling that people who were designated 'beautiful' got special privileges. And I wanted to unpack why, and what actual physical parts they had that gave them that privilege.

So the inspiration I get is really-- it's a lot of anger. It's a lot of what makes me upset, what makes me mad.

And some tips for finding inspiration-- I think when you write about things that bother you about the world, they allow you to turn a lens on it and really pick it apart. And so I like to look for the stuff that-- what's the thing that makes my blood boil, the thing that I'm like, so mad I'm going to have a tantrum and start kicking? And I go, that's what I want to write about. That's what inspires me, the thing that just makes me really upset.

And usually, I go back to my childhood journals. I kept a lot of petty journals. And so I go back and I read-- oh, that boy was so mean to me. Oh, I'm going to put him in this book. And I'm going to talk about-- like, it's a cautionary tale. There are certain people that you might not want to date, because they're blah-blah-blah. And so I just use a lot of stuff like that as my inspiration.

EMILY WOODS: All right, thank you. Growing up, who was your idol? Are they still your idol? And do they impact how and what you write today?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Oh, boy. I can't remember who my idols were growing up. I remember I had a lot of crushes on a lot of different people.

But my idols right now are-- I love Beyoncé. If I could be the Beyoncé of children's books and teen books, I would be living my best life. She's amazing.

I also want to be like Barack Obama, who I love so much, who I wish would rescue us in America. But he can't. So I would love that. And so those are my two, who I love so much.

EMILY WOODS: Thanks, that's good.

[laughs]

You have many fans of The' Belles' series, including myself. How many more books could we expect? And are you writing anything else?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: So there's one more coming, which I sneakily told you. And I'm going to do some short stories from the world of 'The Belles.' One's going to show up in a collection that comes out next year. And then hopefully in the last book in 'The Belles,' there'll be more short stories in there.

And I have a book that comes out next year which is more contemporary, sort of like a 'Tiny Pretty Things.' But it's called 'The Rumour Game.' And it's because when I was in high school, the things that people said about you were super, super influential.

EMILY WOODS: Yes.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: So it follows a girl who accidentally starts a Rumour, the girl who the Rumour is about, and the girl who is collateral damage in the fallout of the Rumour, because that used to happen in my high school a lot. So that comes out next year, at some point. And so that's what I'm working on.

EMILY WOODS: That's exciting.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Yeah, I hope so!

EMILY WOODS: Final question.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: OK.

EMILY WOODS: Do you have anything that you would like to say to young people who have a passion for writing?

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Oh, my gosh, so many things. I know you might hate writing now, because you have to write papers and stuff about, like, books that you didn't choose.

EMILY WOODS: Sometimes.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Sometimes, right? And it's like, ugh. It's like grammar and spelling. My grammar is really bad. My spelling's really bad. And I'm still a writer.

So I would say to embrace that writing is rewriting. And so when I write a book I have to rewrite it over and over again, until it gets good.

And that there are a lot of different ways that if you do like to write-- or even if you don't. If you like stories, there's a lot of different ways to be a storyteller. You can write for TV. You can write film. You can write video games. All the video games people play have a story. And there are writers that write that story. So I think that if you think about what it means to be a writer and you think, oh, I don't want to do that, you might not know how many different ways you can be a storyteller.

So I would say, stay open-minded. And also read and watch everything. Watch all the TV. Read all of the books. And figure out what you like. And figure out what you don't like. And try to see if you can tell a story. And it's a lot of fun.

EMILY WOODS: Yeah, thank you.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Yes.

EMILY WOODS: OK, thank you so much for being here today with me, Dhonielle. It's been an absolute pleasure. And it's been amazing talking to you. I hope everyone watching out there today is reading your incredible novels as much as I did while they work to complete the Premier's Reading Challenge.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Thank you so much for welcoming me here to Sydney. I love it so much.

EMILY WOODS: Thank you.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: You're the best interviewer-- awesome job.

EMILY WOODS: Thank you.

DHONIELLE CLAYTON: Thank you so much.