Listen @ The Arts Unit – Meet the 2023 dance tutors

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land, with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, we chatted to Angela Hamilton, tutor for the NSW Public Schools Senior Dance Ensemble in 2023. The hosts, Madi and Duke, are both students from the NSW Public Schools Senior Dance Ensemble.

Angela completed her tertiary training with Brent Street Studios, the National Theatre Ballet School and Ev & Bow. Angela has a wealth of experience as a performer, choreographer, and having worked across Australia, Europe, the UK and the USA.

She is the founder of Twisted Element, an immersive and interactive dance theatre company, and Wild Hearts Youth Dance Company. This is a chance to learn more about Angela's experience in the industry and what it's like working with the NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble. Thanks for tuning in to this episode.

MADISON PINTLEY: Hi. I'm Madi, and I attend Cronulla High School.

DUKE GARNSEY: And hi. I'm Duke, and I also attend Cronulla High School, and today, we're here interviewing one of our state senior tutors, Angela.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Hi, guys. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

MADISON PINTLEY: We have a few rapid-fire questions to start with. So I'm just going to go really quick. One, what's your favourite dance genre?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Contemporary.

MADISON PINTLEY: Favourite food?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Chocolate.

MADISON PINTLEY: Biggest pet peeve?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Uh, lateness.

MADISON PINTLEY: Oh, no.

ANGELA HAMILTON: [laughs]

MADISON PINTLEY: What is your most prized possession?

ANGELA HAMILTON: My dog.

MADISON PINTLEY: Favourite subject in school, other than dance?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Art.

MADISON PINTLEY: Cheeky guilty pleasure?

ANGELA HAMILTON: TikTok.

DUKE GARNSEY: And we'll end with the last one. What's your most inspirational quote you live by?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Oh. There's no competition for your true purpose.

DUKE GARNSEY: Ooh, that's a good one. So we'll start with, what do you enjoy most about working with the NSW Senior Ensemble?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I love that we have such amazing dancers that come into the program. So I feel like that's a real privilege for me as a teacher and a choreographer. So I really have a lot of scope creatively, and I also find it very inspiring working with the talent because I get to see the dancers really, really grow because they work very hard comparatively to, maybe, teaching at a studio or something like that.

MADISON PINTLEY: Well, speaking of inspiring, who inspired you to dance as a young child?

ANGELA HAMILTON: It was actually my friend, Cleo. She was forced to be my buddy when I was new at school up in Byron. Yeah, she hated that she was assigned to be my buddy, but we ended up being best friends because she was a crazy, kooky, little creative kid, and so we just hit it off, and she did a lot of dancing. She's an actress in Hollywood now.

MADISON PINTLEY: Oh, wow.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, and so we used to just make up dances every day after school, on the weekends, and then, finally, I think, after about a year, her mum said to my mum, 'I think you need to enrol Angela in dance lessons.'

MADISON PINTLEY: She has too much energy.

DUKE GARNSEY: That's funny. Speaking of your dance journey beginning in Byron, what makes you continue your passion for dancing today?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I just love it. I love everything about it. I think it's the most beautiful form of expression. There's no-- you don't need anything. All you need is your body, and it's based on the most primal form of language, which is body language, and that's where dance evolves from, and I think that's so powerful.

MADISON PINTLEY: Do you ever find yourself getting stuck, though, with creativity?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah. Not so much these days. I think when I was starting out, I did, and I would get nervous and feel pressure, as though the dancers are judging me for being stuck. But I think once I let go of that, I would just be OK with the stuck moment and then move through it more quickly.

MADISON PINTLEY: It's very cool watching in class when we're just like sometimes--

ANGELA HAMILTON: When I just stare into space.

MADISON PINTLEY: And then the next minute, it's something crazy that's so cool.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, because the whole thing is happening in my mind.

DUKE GARNSEY: So although there's heaps of challenges, I'm sure you've had many memorable moments. So what are some of the most memorable moments in your dance career, either as a choreographer or that you've been in?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I would say, definitely, the most memorable moments as a choreographer, especially when I came back from overseas and relaunched my company to be an immersive interactive company and with all of my best friends, we created 'Opus'.

And I think the moment seeing that being performed, as the lights were going down and seeing all the visuals coming to life, was like-- I remember sitting there, and my whole body was shaking, and I was like, 'Far out. This is incredible.'

DUKE GARNSEY: Well, what was--

MADISON PINTLEY: And we created this.

DUKE GARNSEY: That's so cool. What was it about?

ANGELA HAMILTON: 'Opus' was about many things, but it was kind of like a journey through imagined futuristic realities.

DUKE GARNSEY: That's cool.

ANGELA HAMILTON: I don't know how else to explain it.

MADISON PINTLEY: Did you always know you wanted to go down that path in dance?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yes. Yeah, as soon as I started dancing, I think-- it was one or 2 years in-- I'm like, 'I want to be a choreographer and have my own company.' Well, I just stuck to it.

MADISON PINTLEY: How did you get to there? What connections did you have to make?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Oh, it's a long journey, and I don't think we have time. But it was a difficult journey.

MADISON PINTLEY: It's a hard one.

ANGELA HAMILTON: You kind of just need to find your own way. There's no set map.

DUKE GARNSEY: See what works for you.

ANGELA HAMILTON: And there definitely wasn't a map for what I'm doing now. So there was a lot of trials and going backwards and going forward and sideways, and you just-- you get there in the end.

MADISON PINTLEY: What was your biggest struggle with being a dance choreographer?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I think, maybe, having-- like, I believe in me, and I believe in the work, but then getting it to click with everyone on the outside, which--

DUKE GARNSEY: Getting everyone to have the same idea.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, which I think they do now. But it's sort of-- there was definitely a transition period there where it was like, people were like, 'Oh, what is that? Oh, that's weird.' But now, they're like, 'Wow, this is awesome!'

DUKE GARNSEY: Well, where do you find inspiration for these works? It's definitely hard as a choreographer, picking up and finding many ideas. Where do you find inspiration?

ANGELA HAMILTON: That's a good question, and for me, it's, I think, from within, usually, is the starting point. It'll be some kind of emotional journey or experience that is the seed of it, and then, I'll intuitively, then, be drawn to different images, ideas, scenes kind of thing, and then it just pieces together like a puzzle over a long period of time.

MADISON PINTLEY: Is that-- because our dance this year, isn't that about your work?

[laughter]

ANGELA HAMILTON: No. So your piece is actually about my office job.

MADISON PINTLEY: Yeah, but it's cool.

DUKE GARNSEY: That's cool.

ANGELA HAMILTON: It's about the feeling of being stuck in the grind and a slave to the modern world of having to do something just in order to make money, even if you don't like it.

MADISON PINTLEY: It's very commercial. It's fun to dance.

DUKE GARNSEY: It's cool. It's a cool concept and idea.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Thank you.

DUKE GARNSEY: So what skills have you actually learnt as a dancer which you think make yourself a good choreographer?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I would say, when I did my year of full time at Edinburgh with training with Sarah Boulter, she really taught me to push everything further, so not only physically, like when we were pushing ourselves training in the studio.

She was always encouraging us, OK, like, 'How can you get deeper? How can you stretch further? How can you be more fluid? How can you abstract that more?' I feel like I really took that from her, and I've applied that to my teaching and my choreography.

MADISON PINTLEY: So, did you do full time after school?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I did-- yeah, I did a few different full-time courses. I did ballet straight after school, and then I went on, and I did more ballet and then I did Edinburgh when I was 24, actually.

MADISON PINTLEY: Oh, wow.

DUKE GARNSEY: Well, other than Sarah Boulter, who are other choreographers within the dance industry you grasp movement inspiration from, or different ideas?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I wouldn't say that I have intentionally grasped movement from any particular choreographer. But apparently, some of my choreography looks a bit like Akram Khan, with all the hand gestures. He does a lot of that fast hand gesture stuff. But I've never actually seen one of his shows. I do like his work, though.

And then another one would be, probably, Hofesh Shechter, his work, 'Grand--' what was it? What was it called? It was in Sydney, 2020, when all the fires were happening. 'Grand Finale', I think it's called, and I literally could not speak for 2 days. I was just like [gasps]. [laughs] Just like-- it was so amazing, and I love him and some of the other incredible Israeli choreographers who really make powerful, guttural, very human kind of work.

DUKE GARNSEY: Yeah. Where do you see yourself in the future? Do you create-- do you wish to create more innovative pieces?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yes. [laughs] 100%.

DUKE GARNSEY: Do you also want to continue teaching and sharing your skills with others?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yes, always. Yeah, I see myself as a teacher, definitely, and I want to keep pushing my work so that I'm a world-famous immersive interactive dance theatre producer.

MADISON PINTLEY: Do you see yourself still living here in Australia or going overseas?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I would love to go overseas. I saw another company in New York, 'Fuerza Bruta'. They have this incredible immersive show, and it's been there in residence in New York City for 10 years. It is so popular, and that was, actually, the show that really made me click that I wanted to make immersive work.

MADISON PINTLEY: Oh, wow.

ANGELA HAMILTON: So I just think of 'Fuerza Bruta'. I'm like, 'That's what I want.'

MADISON PINTLEY: That's your goal.

ANGELA HAMILTON: I want a 10-year residency in New York.

DUKE GARNSEY: You want to be that person.

ANGELA HAMILTON: [laughs]

MADISON PINTLEY: As a dancer or a choreographer?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I want to-- it's going to be Twisted Element in residency in Times Square. No, I don't know if it was Times Square. I can't remember.

MADISON PINTLEY: So we'll be seeing your head in New York.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, definitely.

MADISON PINTLEY: What tools do you use to create choreography, or do you just use your creativity?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Well, as you guys know, a lot of tasking. I love tasking, just because I feel like to make more complex and layered and nuanced choreography, the tasking, as in using many, many different brains, can really make that come to life, whereas with one brain, it's hard to get so many layers in and so many different ideas.

DUKE GARNSEY: And as a dancer, just feel connected to the piece, as well.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Exactly. Do you guys feel connected to the piece?

MADISON PINTLEY: Definitely.

DUKE GARNSEY: Yeah, definitely.

MADISON PINTLEY: I feel proud to know some of the stuff in there.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, exactly. So you're all in there.

DUKE GARNSEY: And we feel it like--

ANGELA HAMILTON: The whole thing is everybody, a part of you.

DUKE GARNSEY: Feeling like we couldn't relate to the piece more, and it's more individual, and we can really show how we feel because--

ANGEL HAMILTON: Exactly.

MADISON PINTLEY: Yeah. Especially the first week we did the task, we were all very rusty in the basic movements, and then the second week, we came back, and we were bouncing off each other, and that was cool.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, definitely.

DUKE GARNSEY: Because you pick up off each other's vibe, as well. You really pace--

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, for sure.

DUKE GARNSEY: And we learn off each other, as well. We find new ideas from you, as well as our peers.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah. I think it's a real gift to the students to be really exposed to tasking. Because that's what you do when you're a professional. In most companies, most projects with most contemporary choreographers, you're going to be tasking all the time. That's what they want. So if you're really good at tasking, you're already halfway there.

DUKE GARNSEY: When were you first introduced to tasking? Did you just find that it worked well for you?

ANGELA HAMILTON: That's a really good question, and I'm not sure of the answer. When was I first introduced to tasking? Gosh, I don't know. I think early on, in auditions as a young dancer after graduating, and that's when I got the shock of my life because I had not been trained in any of that stuff. I had no improv training--

MADISON PINTLEY: It's not easy.

ANGELA HAMILTON: --no tasking training.

DUKE GARNSEY: No, it's not easy.

ANGELA HAMILTON: And then I went to these auditions for companies all around Europe, and I had no idea what I was doing. I had no skills, and it was really shocking for me, and it was very defeating. So I wish that I had been given those tools at your age.

DUKE GARNSEY: Do you believe that tasking also helps us with our improvisation skills, too?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Definitely. The 2 feed each other.

MADISON PINTLEY: You spoke a little bit about Europe there. Did you go over to Europe?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Last one.

[laughter]

Yeah. So when I finished my ballet training, I went to Europe, and I had no idea what I was doing. I had no contemporary training. I was a little bunhead, and I was like, 'I'm going to go and audition for Nederlands Dans Theatre' and all this stuff.

I just had no idea what I was doing. I had no guidance. So I did all that. It was a great experience. But yeah, I quickly realised that I was not equipped yet to be in the contemporary dance world.

DUKE GARNSEY: But do you think that changed you, those setbacks? Do you think that you've grown as an individual?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I think it actually chipped at my confidence a little bit, and that's kind of been a little bit there throughout my journey. But I've actually recently processed those things emotionally and let them go. Sometimes those things do stick with you, even though you're not consciously aware of it, which is a shame.

But I think we didn't have those tools for coping back then. Mental health and all that kind of thing was a bit more taboo. But I think now if you guys were to go on a journey like that and have setbacks, I think you'd have a lot better tools to deal with rejection and things like that.

DUKE GARNSEY: What's the biggest setback you have had happen to you?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I feel like that was a big one, but then it made me more determined, and I've had a few incidences like that through my life. So the first major one was when I was a teenager, and I was really obsessed with dance, doing a lot of dance, and then I got very, very sick and had meningococcal disease, and I nearly went blind. I nearly lost my leg. They told me I wasn't going to live. It was hectic. Yeah, it was hectic.

And then, when I came out of it, I just remember saying to myself, 'You are meant to do something in this world,' and from that day, I was so absolutely razor sharp determined. So I feel like that drove me, and then the audition experience, that kind of-- it set me back, but then it made me more determined again.

MADISON PINTLEY: Like things are meant to be.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, I guess-- I guess so, or just--

DUKE GARNSEY: A blessing in disguise.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah.

DUKE GARNSEY: Because dancers, too, you could really express yourself, even your experiences, and you could really show your strengths and things that you've learnt through different experiences. Whether it was a sickness, illness, or whether it's a setback, you can really dance-- you can really express yourself.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah, definitely.

MADISON PINTLEY: Do you recommend anything for anyone that's, maybe, going through struggles at the moment through dance, like setbacks or anything?

ANGELA HAMILTON: Gosh. I think the biggest thing, and the biggest thing that I've learned in the past couple of years, is really embracing your emotions, so not running away from yourself, and I think dance has a really powerful place in that.

Because another thing I've learned-- fact-- trauma, we actually store in the body. So dance can be very healing in your body, somatic movement. So, yeah, hot like embracing your emotions, accepting your emotions without judgement and then moving and letting tension and emotion release.

DUKE GARNSEY: That whole idea of expressing yourself with no judgement, that's what really helps everyone, really. Dance is one of those things that you can really use any experience and really share it through movement, which is really exciting.

ANGELA HAMILTON: It is exciting, isn't it?

MADISON PINTLEY: You let us do that a lot in your class, as well. I feel free.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Oh, that's great. What do you guys want to do?

MADISON PINTLEY: I have no clue. There's so many different paths, because being a choreographer sounds really cool, but then I've always dreamed of being in a company one day, like Sydney Dance Company or something.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah?

MADISON PINTLEY: Yeah. It's hard because--

ANGELA HAMILTON: You don't have to choose one. You can do it all.

DUKE GARNSEY: Well, for me, maybe the idea of teaching, because I feel so inspired by the teachers around and the things that they've shared with me that I feel like that I could share upon others and share my knowledge and experiences, and I feel like that I just want to share with others what I've been taught, which could be pretty cool.

ANGELA HAMILTON: Yeah.

MADISON PINTLEY: I just don't want to lose the dance bit because I love dancing. So as a choreographer, I feel like sometimes they don't get to dance as much on stage. You're more like the audience. You watch it, you know?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I mean, it's up to you. It's up to you, totally up to you. I've been choreographing since I was 22, and I danced. I just danced in all my own works--

MADISON PINTLEY: Oh, really?

ANGELA HAMILTON: --until I was 27 or something.

MADISON PINTLEY: Oh, wow.

ANGELA HAMILTON: And then I was like, yeah, I'm tired. Now I'm just going to watch.

[laughter]

You can do it. The script is up to you. There's no rules.

DUKE GARNSEY: Have you ever felt, with choreographing, that you've ever had-- obviously, you would have had mental blocks, but where do you find the best place for you to grasp different ideas-- not from but your ideal setting to feel the most creative?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I find going for walks really helps me get ideas. So I'll just listen to the music, or if I'm at the initial stages, just listen to random music and see if something strikes, and yeah, I'll usually just start to get visuals and images. They're usually just flashing images, and then, eventually, it's like a puzzle, and then it gets pieced together.

MADISON PINTLEY: How do you disconnect yourself from being in a dance classroom all day and then going back almost into reality, like leaving dance class?

ANGELA HAMILTON: I don't really find that transition difficult. But to relax, I guess I love playing with my dog and scrolling on TikTok. I probably shouldn't mention that again. I just really love TikTok. It's just-- there's such profound content on there.

MADISON PINTLEY: That's good to know.

ANGELA HAMILTON: I follow a lot of psychologists and stuff like that. There's such interesting stuff. Anyway, don't go on TikTok. It's terrible. It's a black hole.

MADISON PINTLEY: I found my mum scrolling on it the other night.

[laughter]

DUKE GARNSEY: All right. Well, that's great that you've shared with us some great information.

MADISON PINTLEY: Thank you so much.

DUKE GARNSEY: Thank you so much.

ANGELA HAMILTON: No worries.

Thanks for having me.

DUKE GARNSEY: Thank you.

MADISON PINTLEY: Thank you.

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

[upbeat music playing]

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au. Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen at The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land, with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, the hosts, Chloe and Emma, speak with NSW Public School's Senior State Dance Ensemble tutor, Anouska Gammon.

Anouska has had extensive experience and involvement in the performing arts industry for over 30 years. After completing a diploma at Brent Street Performing Arts and a double degree in Dance and Drama Education at the University of NSW, Anouska has continued to pursue her love for the performing arts through teaching and choreographing in various institutions throughout NSW.

After many years in Sydney, Anouska relocated to Byron Bay with her family, where she has co-founded and directs Bangalow Theatre Company and BANG! Academy of Performing Arts. Anouska currently lectures at Southern Cross University in performing arts education and hopes to share and inspire more creativity into the region. This is a chance to learn more about Anouska's involvement in the dance industry and her experience working with the NSW Public Schools State Dance Ensemble over the past 9 years. Thanks for tuning in.

CHLOE: Hi, my name is Chloe, and I'm from Wagga Wagga High School.

EMMA: Hi, my name is Emma, and I'm from Inverell High School. Welcome, today, Anouska, and thank you for being here for our podcast.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Thank you for having me.

CHLOE: So Anouska, at what age did you begin dance? And what styles did you learn growing up?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: I was 8 years old. I did a lot of ballet, jazz, tap, musical theatre, singing, drama. And so we were trained in all of the 3 sort of genres of the performing arts. And so growing up, we did lots of song and dance and musicals.

And it wasn't until I started studying dance at my own high school that I started really delving into more contemporary dance because that was what the dance subject was at high school. And then from then on, continued studying a lot of contemporary dance.

EMMA: That's really interesting because now when we do like HSC dance and study dance within our school, they've kept that alive. And they keep doing that. So yeah, that's really interesting.

CHLOE: Other than dance, what are your creative outlets?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Oh, I have so many. I write. So at the moment, I'm writing a play. I also direct theatre. So I'm also directing a play at the moment.

EMMA: Wow.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: And I've also recently written a musical, a full-scale original piece with 4 creative friends. And we have been performing it up around the Byron Shire, which is where we're from. But also, we took it down to Adelaide Fringe Festival. So for the first time in 17 years, I'm back out on stage, singing and dancing and acting, which is really exciting.

The other creative outlets I have are painting. I do lots of painting. Piano playing, so I still play the piano. And sometimes write my own music. And yeah, basically, my whole life is about being creative.

EMMA: What musical are you producing at the moment?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: It's called New Blood. And it sort of birthed out of COVID in a way. Our small town up near Byron Bay became really busy because a lot of people were moving out of the cities and wanting that lifestyle change. So our small town rapidly changed.

And so as locals, we began to see all of the newcomers coming in, the new blood. And so we thought, how interesting. We've got people who have been in this town forever, lots of generational farmers and families been there forever. And then a lot of new blood coming into town, and whether or not everyone's wanting the change, happy for change, needing the change.

So it looks at 5 different characters and their journeys through that. Some of those characters are new blood. And we also sort of jump into other characters of the town, so people that work at the post office and people that go to the pub. And so it's like a snapshot of regional towns and how much they've changed.

EMMA: Yeah, that's really interesting. Thank you. What inspired you to become a teacher, tutor, and choreographer within performing arts?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Oh, so my dad was a teacher. He was the head of science at my high school. And I could always see the love that he had for sharing his own knowledge with young people and the influence that he had. He was a brilliant man and a really well-respected in our community.

I also was very lucky to have an amazing dance teacher up at Kingscliff High School, Robyn Ludeke who was a bit like a mentor. She took me through both my teaching pracs. And she was also really instrumental in creating lots of opportunity for young people.

So when I was going through, she created a touring group called Impact. And we would tour up and down the north coast of NSW with other students who were musicians or vocalists or other dancers like myself. And we'd create a whole work. And so we'd take the work up and down and tour it. And that was a really great experience.

So I think we were really lucky. I was really lucky. We had a very strong dance culture already happening at the high school. And a lot of the influences coming back into the teaching realm were from that amazing time and being, also, a regional kid. I did grow up in a in a small community away from cities, always really keen to have opportunity. And I think this state ensemble that we do is perfect for regional kids just like I was.

EMMA: Yeah.

CHLOE: Yeah, that's so lovely to know. I very much relate to your connection with your dance teacher, as my teacher, Miss Fisher, is amazing. And she's really beautiful. And it really makes your experience with dance in a regional place so different to what it would be if you were living in a big city. And it makes everything so worthwhile.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah, that's lovely, that sense of connection. And you're inspired, obviously, by her. That's wonderful.

CHLOE: Yeah.

EMMA: Yeah, teachers make a huge difference with dance.

CHLOE: It's amazing.

EMMA: Having you as a state teacher is so inspiring, knowing all the different things you've done and how many different creative outlets you have. It's truly something that I inspire to do and be like.

CHLOE: Who have you worked with within the dance industry that has influenced you and your perspective of dance as an art form?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: When I was studying at Uni of NSW in our dance and education degree, I was lucky enough to be taught by Sue Healey for 2 out of my 4 years. She was really heavily involved in the course. And she would come in and almost do repertoires of her work that she was working on with us. And so she would use our group as a bit of a test tube, experimental space for what she was incubating for her own practice, which was really wonderful.

I was really inspired by her because, up until then, I'd done a lot of commercial dance. I'd done lots of jazz. I went to Brent Street for the year and studied the full-term course there. Did lots of singing and dancing and acting. And it was very much for the entertainment value.

And it wasn't until someone like Sue Healey was in front of you, and I think they'd been performing a work for 3 or 4 months. And then she came back into the space, and she was reworking this piece that they'd been performing. And it just sort of clicked with me, that that's amazing. I don't know, that idea of process and that idea of creative process for her hadn't finished with the performance.

And I really admired that in her. Being an artist isn't easy. You actually really need to enjoy that creative process. You have to acknowledge it. You have to appreciate it and respect it, and also acknowledge that even if the piece is up on stage, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's complete. Things can always grow and shift and adapt.

EMMA: So as someone who attended UNSW studying dance education, would you also recommend this course for inspiring artists to advance their dance career or anything that they want to do within the performing arts?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah, look, the course has really changed since I was there. And I really suggest tertiary study in any tertiary institution in Australia if you really want to pursue. One of the best things with our Uni course was that we were a group, and a great group. We were very lucky to have each other. We're still very close friends.

And this is going back 17 years now, we graduated, which is a long time. But we're still very close. And we always sort of catch up when we're in the same space together. And sometimes our catch-ups are at State Festival, which is why it's lovely for me to come down and be a part of this, too.

But I think anything like that where you're learning day-to-day with a group of people, and you're going through something like that together, and you can really find that idea of trust and understanding of the art form, and actually, go really deep into the art form. So you really gain that appreciation. And you're in that sort of comfort of trust and support with others who are really like-minded. And I think that's-- what a treat to be able to have that time and space. So the course that I did study at Uni of NSW no longer exists.

CHLOE: So Anouska, while you were in high school, did you complete the HSC dance course?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yes, I did. This is going back quite a while. I feel like the course has really changed, being on the other side as a teacher and seeing how much it's changed, even in the last 10 years. Back when I did it, our interviews were really different. We were sort of asked one question. We got to go to a desk and write down our response for, I don't know, 5 minutes or something.

CHLOE: That's really different. Wow.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah, and then we would have to read our response. And there was no other sort of probing questions. But our response would have to go for the 8 minutes or however long we were meant to talk for. So yeah, it wasn't a conversation. It was different.

Yeah. I don't know if it's more challenging or less. I think sometimes the conversation is really important, actually, because you can hopefully steer it in the direction that you want them to be. You can offer good examples and solid sort of answers to the questions. But it can sometimes go in a different direction. I think that's quite daunting for young people.

EMMA: Yeah.

CHLOE: For sure. You can definitely make the questions your own. And if you hint towards something, they might ask you a question that you know that you have studied or worked on.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yes.

CHLOE: It's very helpful in that now, it's more of a conversation rather than like a test, as you said. Out of performance, composition and appreciation, what was your favourite? And which one did you major in?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Composition. Yeah, absolutely loved it. I lived and breathed in that dance studio. Before doing HSC, dance and music were my 2 major subjects. And all the other subjects at school sort of, I don't know, whittled away into the background and were quite foggy and blurry.

But I was a singer. So I loved singing. I did lots of singing at high school. And also, obviously, the dance. And yeah, leading up to HSC, I think I was in the studio every morning choreographing, lunchtimes, recesses, like, I could not get enough of it. And I did manage to do quite well.

But I was always pushing myself. I always wanted to make original movement. From the day that I was like, you can create your own thing, I knew that I really wanted to try and push myself into not doing movements that I'd been taught before. I was really hungry to create original movement.

CHLOE: Yeah, as someone myself, who struggles with composition, what would you say to someone who needs a bit of assistance when it comes to creating organic movement and making something your own?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah. Great question. It's about just having the confidence in yourself that it's all in there. I know my process. And still, to this day, I need to be quiet in a space by myself to start even, not even just to start moving, but to start delving into an idea, researching an idea, I need time and space without any distraction.

So for me, that's really important. I can't really choreograph with other people around me. It's a very private practice. And it always has been. So it's almost been my space.

And I guess there are tools that can sort of help start ideas of original movement. One of the tools is my cube, my alphabet cube, which is my kinesphere. And I basically draw up a cube. And I put letters of the alphabet all around this cube. So every corner has a different letter. Every line between each corner has a different letter. Every middle of the space of the cube.

And you put your body in the middle of the cube. So it's your kinesphere. It's the space around you. And then you spell words with different body parts. So I'll assign the letter A to my right elbow. And I'll assign the letter B to my left big toe. And I will then spell words. And I'll have to get those body parts into those positions in my kinesphere cube.

So sometimes I'll spell my concept. And that could be where I start. And that sort of gets you right out of moving how you usually comfortably move and more forcing into a different way of moving.

EMMA: Yeah, that's definitely something that we should try.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah, I highly recommend it.

EMMA: That's awesome. Yeah, coming into dance, Year 12 next year, I think that will really help with composition--

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah, do it.

EMMA: --for sure.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah. It's always been a great way to start. And then you might go, oh, those 3 movements go really well together. It's interesting. It works with my concept well. So then you'll start building your movement vocabulary for the work using that, rather than just rehashing known movements constantly. Yeah.

EMMA: Wow, amazing. Thank you so much.

CHLOE: Awesome. All righty. As a tutor for both North Coast and NSW state dance ensembles, what would the benefits be for students who are interested in partaking in these?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah, I think anyone who lives regionally, especially young people, especially coming out of COVID, there's never been a bigger need to feel connection and to feel like you are connected to something greater than what is existing in small regional towns, especially if you are restricted in terms of space or restricted in terms of people coming to your town to do workshops or anything like that. A lot of the time, doing programs like this, you are exposing yourself to so many wonderful new experiences, new choreographers, new ways to move, new ideas, new-- go to the theatre while you're here. See more art. Go to an art gallery. So you can expose yourself to lots of different creative outlets.

And I think also coming together with other regional students, there's something that you all understand with each other, which is the fact that you see each other. And this is probably a big, broad brush stroke. But I'm a huge believer in country people having a great sense of connection.

I walk down my main street, and everyone knows everyone. And that's what I love about it. And unfortunately, cities don't really have that sense of connection. Some parts might. But I think we're really lucky in that sense.

And so I think students come, and they might be a little bit more open and a bit more willing to make connections with other people. And so I've always realised doing these state ensembles that even though a lot of students are coming and the only person that they know from their small area, that they come and they're open to making new connections. And the connections that they make are ongoing, and they're something that they can take forward with them and build from.

Yeah, I think they're really important. And I really think the Far North Coast regional stuff has recently just started this year, which is really exciting. But I can already feel this momentum for those kids. They can see that there's other things that they're going to be connected to. They're going to meet other people. They're going to be part of something that's bigger than what they're used to.

And I think that's really healthy practice because they'll bring energy and difference to things as well. But what they take from the experience will also be-- and new ideas, new perspectives. So, yeah.

CHLOE: One thing that I've sort of experienced while being here is the difference between regional kids and people who have access to facilities like Sydney Dance Company, for example, on a weekly basis, and kids who have to travel far to come here. It's a very life-- not life-changing, but it really alters your perspective of the opportunities you have as a regional kid. And people like you give us the opportunity to create and have that space to keep on going within our dance.

EMMA: Yeah.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah.

CHLOE: Yeah.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: It's so important, right? Because you need to--

CHLOE: 100%.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah. And I think you have to be hungry for it to keep on going.

EMMA: For sure.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: But I do feel like what you take back with you is, hopefully, this cup full of ideas and being inspired to continue, you know?

EMMA: Yeah, absolutely. This year and last, I've been doing state. And last year, amazing. This year, amazing. And it's different, again, because I've had 2 different tutors now. And I just love the different points of view.

And the girls that I've met are relationships that I'll keep for life. I've got them on social media. We come back each year and we see each other. It's amazing. I really enjoy it.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah, it's like a family.

EMMA: Yeah, absolutely.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Yeah.

EMMA: There's nothing stronger than a dance family with girls, guys, it's great. It's amazing.

CHLOE: And when we're all here for the same thing, it just creates a very strong group of people. And I just love being here. Anouska, if you were a dance move, what would you be?

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Oh, that's a great question, Chloe. I think, look, I've always loved to-- it would be something grounded, I would have to say. It could be a plié in second. Is that a little bit too-- not enough movement?

CHLOE: No, not at all. I think that's perfect.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Is it?

CHLOE: Yeah.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: I'm trying to rack my head of all the millions of dance moves. But I do like the idea of travelling through plié and moving through plié, and definitely feeling grounded, with bare feet, people. No socks. Yes.

EMMA: We are a big fan of socks here.

Wow, that was something I didn't actually think I'd experience being at state. I put my hand up, because I don't usually say yes to things that don't involve just physical movement. So I thought, I'll try something new. And I'm glad I did because this was-- this was inspiring. I really feel like I've taken something away from this. And knowing where you've come from, what you've done, and how you've done it, it's really good, because I feel like I have a chance being a rural student that I can go somewhere with what I want to do and what I love to do.

So I really appreciate this. Thank you very much for joining us on this podcast.

CHLOE: Thank you, Anouska.

ANOUSKA GAMMON: Oh, thank you, girls. Keep creating.

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to Listen @ The Arts Unit, our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

[upbeat music playing]

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, the hosts, Evie and Summer, spoke with the NSW Public School's Primary Dance Ensemble tutor, Charlotte Twitchell.

In 2016, Charlotte moved from Pennsylvania, USA, to Australia. Charlotte is an experienced performer, choreographer and teacher and currently works as a pilates instructor, choreographer, and for the past 3 years, as a tutor with the NSW Public School's Dance Ensemble.

Charlotte attended Indiana University completing a bachelor of science in kinesiology, majoring in dance, and is currently studying a bachelor of clinical science at Macquarie University. Through her teaching, Charlotte aims to provide awareness and confidence in students' own artistry and movement. During this episode, we learn more about Charlotte's experience in the dance industry and what it's like working with the NSW Public School's Primary Dance Ensemble. Thanks for tuning in.

SUMMER: Hi, my name is Summer, and I attend Bondi Beach Public School.

EVIE: Hi, my name is Evie, and I attend Bondi Beach Public School.

BOTH: Welcome our tutor, Charlotte Twitchell.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Hi, guys.

EVIE: How old were you when you decided to pursue dance as a career, and why?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: I think I was about 11 years old when I was realising I was serious about dance and envisioning a career, because the school that I trained at was pre-professional. And I got into the upper level company at that age. And so it was clear to me that I could actually do it.

SUMMER: What inspires you to come up with the theme of choreography for the Arts Unit dancers?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: It's hard to say where it comes from. Sometimes it's the music that I'm choosing. Sometimes it's current events. For the piece that I'm choreographing this year, I based it off of climate and climate change, and your guys's future in the world, because that's really relevant and important to me.

Sometimes it's a silly theme. Sometimes it's a serious theme.

[laughter]

But it's really just what I'm interested in. And so a lot of it has to do with sciencey themes and topics of interest to me.

SUMMER: How long have you been teaching at the Arts Unit?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: I have to think about that one actually.

[laughter]

I think I started back in-- 2019 was when I was hired on. But then unfortunately, my first year was 2020.

EVIE: Oh, yeah, COVID.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: I know, yeah, so there was a little bit of a hiccup starting off. So it's been about what, 3 years now that I've been here?

SUMMER: Can you tell us an interesting fact about yourself and your dancing career?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: I think the coolest thing that I've done dancing-wise was when I studied abroad in Israel, and I got to work with Ohad Naharin and his dance company, Batsheva Dance Company. And we did his choreography and got to spend like 10 hours a day just dancing. And that was really, really cool.

SUMMER: That sounds fun.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Yeah, it was super fun.

SUMMER: So how old were you when you were in Israel, and was it hard to live without your family?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: I was 20, 21. And at that point, I had done a fair few summer programs away from my family in America, so I was pretty used to it. But my family and I are really close, so it's kind of weird that I feel more comfortable travelling abroad and living abroad, because we are so close. I think if we weren't, I'd be a little bit more worried about it. But we have a great relationship, so we see each other for a couple of weeks and we're really happy, and then we don't have to see each other for a long time. And we're still the same people on the other side of it.

But it was a little bit hard. I did miss them a little bit. I still do. But they're visiting now, so I don't have to miss them right now.

[laughter]

SUMMER: What is it that you love about teaching dance at the NSW State Dance Ensemble?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Personally, my favourite thing is the kids, you guys. You guys are the best part of it.

[laughter]

SUMMER: Of course we are.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Of course you are.

[laughter]

Because you guys really want to be here. And what motivates me the best is seeing really enthusiastic, self-driven dancers who are creative minded and want to learn. That's really important.

EVIE: Have you had any major injuries during your career?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Yes, nothing crippling but definitely show stopping a few times. When I was doing lots of ballet, I had lots of stress fractures. And then I pulled my hamstring muscle over stretching one time, and that took a while to heal. It was a pretty nasty one. I think that's what actually started me getting into anatomy, too, because I was so injured. But the rest of it's been little things after those big ones.

SUMMER: When you come up with the choreography, how do you organise the spacing in different timings? Do you image you're in the audience, or like a dancer in the dance? How do you organise the spacing of everyone?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: That's a good question, Summer. Oh my goodness. My brain tends to come up with a bird's eye view of floor patterning, so I kind of can see the above picture. And I work with dancers around the stage and where they're going to travel.

And then afterwards, after I've planned out how the floor patterns go and the travel patterns go, then I put in the vocabulary, like the dance moves. And a lot of times I'll use your guys's dance moves to create the phrases, so that it looks really nice, because you guys can dance your way the best, right? [laughs]

So me creating something really my style isn't going to be necessarily the best looking thing on you. But then I get to put you guys into little sections and make it look into the piece that I like to see personally, which is cool patterning.

EVIE: What is it that made you want to teach dance at the Arts Unit?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Well, I love that this place is driven towards the artistic side of dancing. It's really important for me as an artistic contemporary dancer to kind of keep that alive, so that we have both the competitive side of dancing and the artistic, non-competitive side both living symbiotically in the city. I think the Arts Unit is really, really useful for that, so you guys can pursue your dance career whichever way you want to and have all of the options at your feet, you know what I mean?

And the other thing that in the past and I hope continues in the future as well now that COVID'S over is the international kind of awareness, where you guys at this program get to have dance teachers and people coming in, guest teachers who are international to show you what's going on currently, because Australia is very insular sometimes, so we need a little bit of outside influence to bring about some new ideas, and just so you guys know what's going on in the world with dance, because there's a lot of options out there.

SUMMER: Your current mission is to provide a better awareness in performers as well as confidence in their own artistry and movement. Can you please tell us a little bit about how you can achieve your mission with aspiring young dance students who join the Arts Unit?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: You're just nailing the questions.

[laughter]

Yes, so my tactics for emboldening artists-- I like to call you guys artists, because kids are really good artists-- is to facilitate as much as possible your understanding and to give you guys as much creative tasking as possible.

I think imposing my will upon you guys is not really helpful all the time. There's things like safety things that you need to know about, technical safety things. So we go over that stuff, so that you can feel safe in your dancing.

But then the rest of it should really be driven by you guys feeling like what you have to do and what you have to say as an artist is valuable. And so that's why we do things like improv, right? We do the tasking work in the choreography class, so that when we do choreography it's not just my stuff that I'm giving you, but it's you coming up with the phrases.

And I think those skills are super, super helpful, because if you do go into a contemporary dance company ever, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to know how to task work. And the director will expect you to understand what type of movement they want. And so if you're not used to doing that stuff, it can be really scary. So I'm giving you ahead of time, as early as possible.

EVIE: We do a lot of task work.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Yeah, we do.

EVIE: It's very fun.

[laughter]

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: You get to team work with your friends, too, which I think helps build relationships. Yeah, we want to have those relationships for as long as possible, because they help you in dance to know people.

EVIE: So this is a bit of a different question, but what activewear brands do you recommend to us as young dancers?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Well, in general, I think the ones that last the longest are really helpful, because you don't want something that's going to immediately wear and tear.

[laughter]

So probably a little bit nicer quality, things like Lorna Jane and lululemon and stuff like that. I would recommend typically staying away from bright, colourful things, because teachers like to look at lines. So you can do single block colours or just black or grey. And that's usually pretty helpful.

But yeah, I would stay away from-- I mean, I know Kmart can have some cool things. But I don't think the quality is super nice, might fall apart if you do a slide or 2. But those would be the ones I recommend, really.

EVIE: I recently got my new package, that I got a new dance package from the brand CosiG dancewear.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Oh, I've never heard of-- I'm not actually super familiar with Australian brands, because I grew up in the US. So I am diehard lululemon wearer slash aficionado. Are you an ambassador, Summer?

[laughter]

SUMMER: I'm wearing lululemon shorts right now.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: They're just so comfy.

SUMMER: Yeah. This is also kind of a different question. But what is the funniest experience or moment that you've had during your time dancing?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Oh, another big question.

[laughter]

Well, with the dance company that one of our other tutors, Miss Angela Hamilton ran that I was part of here, the process with which we created pieces was similar to what we do in my class where it's task work. But we would all as a big group do it together.

And those rehearsals would end up with us rolling on the floor laughing super, super hard, because I don't know if you've ever met Miss Angela, but she's very goofy. So her ideas are very goofy. And we would get really silly with a lot of the things.

And so one of the latest ones that we had done before COVID was this tea party, where we had to come up with this movement phrase of silly tea gestures, like eating spaghetti, sipping the tea, spilling it on yourself, picking it up, eating something really fast and having your mouth too full. And we just kept cracking up over and over again, because it just was so silly. We couldn't keep track of what was going on, so that was pretty fun.

SUMMER: If you could talk to your 12-year-old self, what's something you would tell her?

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: I feel like my 12-year-old self was really scared in all classes I took. But I would probably tell her that what you're doing is a really good job. And the criticisms that you're getting from other people and that you're telling yourself are not true. You should be confident and just keep learning and keep your mind open and always try hard, but always know that you trying hard is enough, you know what I mean?

You're both in my piece. So let's maybe ask you guys, how have you been finding classes and choreography?

SUMMER: I really like it, because we get to add our own choreography or movements and work with other people from other schools that we've never danced with or met.

EVIE: Yeah, I like how we get to collaborate with our other friends. And also, I feel like Charlotte gives us challenges when we're dancing with her. And I find it really helpful.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Good, what part of it is helpful?

EVIE: Like when we get to make up our own steps, and you give us helpful tips.

CHARLOTTE TWITCHELL: Oh, good, I'm glad that it's helpful.

[laughter]

It's hard to know sometimes, because we just go so fast in all those things. So I'm a bit crazy.

[laughter]

I feel like all my brain is all over the place, but I'm glad that you're enjoying it.

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

[upbeat music playing]

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au. Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land, with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music, and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture, and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, the hosts, Ava and Charlotte, spoke with the NSW Public Schools Junior Dance Ensemble tutor, Evie Morris.

Evie is a contemporary dancer and choreographer with a wealth of experience on stage and screen. Her freelance performance work includes ongoing contracts with Opera Australia, alongside music videos with notable Australian artists and film work as a choreographer and director.

Evie was also choreographer for the 2022 Schools Spectacular, working with the Featured Contemporary Dance Ensemble. Her work now centres around education with a bachelor of dance, certification in Pilates instruction, and most recent degree, achieving a master's in education focusing on higher education and pre-professional training.

This episode gives us a chance to learn more about Evie's experience in the industry and what it's like working with the NSW Public School's Junior Dance Ensemble. Thanks for tuning in.

AVA: Hi, I'm Ava, and I attend Northern Beaches Secondary College Mackellar Girls Campus.

CHARLOTTE: Hi, I'm Charlotte, and I go to Dulwich Hill High School of Visual Arts and Design.

EVIE MORRIS: Hi, guys, I'm Evie. I'm so happy to be here and answer your questions.

[laughter]

Fire away, I can't wait to hear.

AVA: What is it that you love about teaching dance at the NSW State Dance Ensemble?

EVIE MORRIS: That's a good one. It has only been a term, but there has been a lot to love already, especially working with such young dancers who are so eager to learn. I think the best thing I've seen so far, and the thing that I go home going, ah, that was an amazing thing that we accomplished together, is the fact that you guys are picking up skills that are well beyond your years.

So as a teacher, I come in with content that I teach to full-timers and professionals and other professional dancers. You guys don't know that, but this is the same stuff that I teach to much older students. Now, the way I teach it is different, but the content is essentially the same.

And seeing students pick up things that are years and years ahead of what you would usually get is always my aim. And yeah, seeing you guys achieve that stuff is very gratifying and something I really love about being able to share my knowledge with people of this age.

CHARLOTTE: What has been your highlight or memorable moment so far with the Arts Unit dance dream for 2023?

EVIE MORRIS: Definitely what I said before is a highlight as well. But another thing has been being able to choreograph on young students as well. And that was a challenge that I went, OK, how hard do I make this for students who are in Year 7, 8, 9 and 10? How challenging can I make this for you guys? And I made the decision to go more challenging than not because I'd rather err on that side than make it too easy for you all.

And once again, it was a full surprise, especially in Term 1, to have the students I get to work with in my ensemble just pick things up straight away. And I went, oh, my goodness. OK. Maybe this is too easy, but this is some of the most challenging stuff I think I can throw at you. So definitely a highlight for me there is being further challenged by you all, going, OK, let's go to the next level and make it harder.

AVA: How did you begin your dance journey, and what age did you begin classes?

EVIE MORRIS: I started quite late. I think I did some baby ballet when I was really young, but I don't really count that. I think I really started dancing when I was 11, which is late for lots of people.

And I think that meant for me that I was behind the general like 11-year-old who was dancing, who had already done years of ballet and everything. So I did feel like I had to catch up on a lot, especially technically. But at the same time, that made me a much harder worker, I think, than people who are a little more used to dancing than I was.

So I think it was an unconventional start but actually paid off for me in the long run because I learnt to work really, really hard to try and catch up to everyone that was already better than me at that stage. So that kind of launched me.

And then in terms of a start in career, I'm not sure it happens anymore that it just kind of begins. I think you start with one little job that you get that I think my first job I got paid $50 for. And I was on set for 10 hours.

And I woke up at 3 am to get on set by 4 am to go into hair and makeup to do this music video for a friend. And I got paid nothing for it, but that started me off a trajectory working with the same director 3 times and the same artist 3 other times after that. So I don't know if that was my starting point, but it's certainly a point I remember of going, that started the ball rolling for me.

CHARLOTTE: If you started so late, what brought you to start at such an older age than most people?

EVIE MORRIS: Oh, good question. Genuinely, my mum's friend wanted to start teaching dance. It was one day a week. It was 7 o'clock on a Wednesday night at the school hall. And she put on one jazz class a week.

And my mum went, you don't do anything on Wednesdays. Go do that. And I was playing netball and doing all this other stuff. But I don't know, my mum just wanted to throw one more thing on my schedule.

And it honestly, it was one jazz class a week. That's all I started with for a whole year. And then it was 2 jazz classes, and then it was a ballet in there at a certain point. And it was a very slow start, but that's the honest answer.

I don't think I really was like, mum, mum, I want to dance. I have to dance. It just kind of happened. And then people took me under their wing and helped me along the way at that older age.

AVA: What is your favourite style of dance to teach, do and watch?

EVIE MORRIS: Oh. [chuckles] I have to say contemporary. I don't think I can say anything else. Certainly to watch it, there's so many possibilities. And that means when I teach, I get to change so much and try so much new stuff as well. So it means the amount of time I've been a teacher, for which is a very long time now, I have been able to grow my personal style and practice because there's kind of limitless possibilities of what contemporary is and what it means. It literally means all the time.

So what I do now is not what I'm going to do in 10 years' time because it won't be of the time in that time. So there's lots of room for growth there for me. Not to say that other styles aren't beautiful-- I love a ballet class. I love being able to teach it and watch it. But in terms of piquing my interest and possibility, contemporary is the one for me.

CHARLOTTE: Who or what is your inspiration behind your dance career?

EVIE MORRIS: My inspiration-- I think there's too many to name because I can take it from anywhere. I think I'd be remiss to say-- I'd be-- without the teachers that I had, I don't think I'd do it. So in terms of inspiration, the driving force early on that actually helped me bridge the gap between wanting to do it and actually doing it was the teachers that I had and who saw something in me before I saw something in myself, and went, 'We think you're good at this here. Here's an opportunity.'

And that was doing state company. When I was your age, I was in their Years 10, 11, 12-- so a little bit later than you guys. Those teachers at that time saw something in me and let me come into the company and taught me.

And then other teachers and other public school programs and at my studio and beyond that, they were the ones who had way more confidence in me than I had in myself. And without them, I don't think I would have had any driving force to move forward. So I think inspiration is maybe not the right word, but it also does fit because they gave me the confidence to be able to do it.

AVA: What is the most important factor of training in your personal opinion?

EVIE MORRIS: Oh, the most important-- I don't know how I can prioritise that. I have this conversation a lot with, especially, older students who are looking at how they enter the industry and what jobs they want to get and things like that.

I was always told that you have to be a smart dancer. And I agree, it's not just enough to be a good dancer because there's plenty of good dancers out there. There's too many of them. Everyone is good enough to get the job.

I think the thing I believe makes young dancers the most hireable and the easiest to work with is the ones who are mentally switched-on enough to pick up quickly, to be able to read the room, to be able to stay humble in the room and do the work, and stay disciplined enough that they're not just bringing their physical skill; they're bringing everything they hold in their heads as well.

And that gets underrated. And I think young dancers maybe think it's not as important. But I see it as 50-50. If you're bringing me all the dance training you've ever had in your body, and then all the life experience and all the knowledge and everything you have in your head, I can do a lot with that. So I think that would be the most underrated thing. And it's something I wish young dancers knew earlier.

CHARLOTTE: What is a challenge that you have had to overcome during your dance career? And how did you overcome this?

EVIE MORRIS: There's lots. A dance career is not easy. If you guys go into this, you will find out that.

[girls chuckle]

CHARLOTTE: Yeah.

AVA: Injury is always a big one, and I've had my fair share. And it's, again, something I wish young dancers knew to take care of themselves earlier rather than later. We see a lot of young dancers pushing through injuries. And you're young, you bounce back, all those things. You do recover quickly.

But when I was doing my bachelor degree, my Achilles got to a point where they were hanging on by a thread. And I was not OK, and I was dancing through it. And it got to obviously a point where it was so bad, I could barely walk with it.

And I had to make the decision to stop dancing for the rest of the trimester. That I was there and just sit down and watch. And it was so painful-- it was more painful emotionally than it was physically to stop dancing. But it is a practice that I had to learn so that I could have this career that kept going and going and going.

And now, any injury that I have, I jump on it so quickly. I have a long-standing hip injury now, which is just unfortunate. But it's not taking me out of the game as a dancer. I'm still getting performance contracts and doing all the things I want, but it's something I have to look after so much more consciously than not. I can't just ignore it and go, oh, this is going to go away by itself. It just doesn't.

So being aware that your body is your main instrument for the whole life that you want to lead, it's a big lesson to learn and one that took me a long time. But I'm much better for it now.

CHARLOTTE: What's some advice that you have for young dancers in being able to return from injuries and look after their bodies?

EVIE MORRIS: I think they're 2 different things. So, returning from injury is one thing, and that's getting a proper diagnosis and doing everything your physio says.

[laughter]

Please do everything your physio says because without that, there is no return. They're very smart people. Please listen to them. But in terms of general body maintenance, I remember being anything under 18, and my leg-- like, I could just kick my leg high. I didn't have to warm up for anything. Everything felt good all the time. And that just doesn't happen anymore.

So the practice of warming up and the meditation that comes with that and doing something proper for your body means that you don't have to learn how to do that later. So warm-ups are important, generating body heat, stretching out after class is important.

Foam rolling, I think, is something that a lot of young dancers don't even think of because you go, I don't really need that. My muscles feel fine and nice and loose. But again, it's understanding that even 5 minutes on a foam roller or a little pressure ball release in the right places will give you access to so much other stuff rather than just being like, oh, my body goes where it tells it to go because I'm young. So foam rolling, really good one.

Please do all your warm-ups and ankles and calf rises and all that stuff. And then if you are returning from injury, the practices and the exercises that your physios set are 100% going to get you back to where you need to be, which means you don't have to deal with that injury again. And that's important.

AVA: Who is your favourite choreographer or dancer?

EVIE MORRIS: That's very hard. There's so many Aussie dancers that I love, and I feel like they don't get enough of a shout out. Ava's nodding. And I, like--

[girls laughing]

--there's so many amazing peers of mine who I'm very lucky to call peers now. So I could say lots of international people, but I'm going to give you some Aussie names of people who are working now, who are doing great things now.

One of them is Neil Whittaker. He is-- more nodding. Yes, we love Neil. He is a wonderful dancer and an incredible choreographer; but at the same time, a very great human and really generous with his time and his knowledge. And I think those 2 things make him the artist that he is.

There's Chantelle Landayan I really like as well. She's so versatile. Who else can I think of who's Australian who's in the circles? Oh, Pete's great. I'm just naming friends now.

[girls laughing]

I have such amazing friends. And it is a weird thing that I have had to accept in these-- like, the mid-career that I'm in, I guess, of going, there's so many people I admire, and then you start to work with them, and then they just become your mates.

And you don't forget that you once admired them, but you go, oh, I'm in the same rooms now, and I'm comfortable in this space. And I'm realising now as I'm talking out that I should acknowledge that I actually got to that place that I was always wishing to be at. And it's funny when that happens to you.

And it happens to lots of dancers. I think that you know you stay in the industry, and then eventually you're in a spot where you're like, I'm working with everyone that I've wanted to work with. And that's somewhere I never really-- I always wanted to get, but you never know if it's going to happen, but.

CHARLOTTE: What is your process when choreographing new pieces?

EVIE MORRIS: It changes all the time because I still am mid-career. I have been doing this for a long time now, but I still see myself as in that mid-career progression where I know who I am stylistically and where I want to go. But how I go about that, there's still lots of room for change there.

So, usually, it's movement first. It comes from an idea of I think this would look amazing, or it's like a visual in my head. And I try and put that onto my body in the space and then unpack it and kind of branch it out a little bit. So usually, it's movement first and then finding music that I can mould that movement to.

And then I'm sure you guys have seen, as I work it onto a group of people, that's not me, which always changes the choreography in and of itself because my students are not me. They don't have-- like, it's a wonderful thing, but the movement has to adapt to the people that are dancing it. So when it gets on that, it changes again.

And then finally, I really like to play with architecture in the space, and that's just bodies making shapes and patterns that can remain there or dissipate. And it gives a landscape across a stage.

And I'm trying to zoom out as much as possible when I see movement on a group of dancers where I really step back and try to look at the whole thing. And so then when I do zoom in again and try and pick moments, that's when I go, OK, that's really interesting. What has pulled my focus, and then how does that look in the whole world of the stage as well? So I think that's my kind of application. It's idea and my body first, and then music, and then how it changed on other dancers, and then architecture of the space.

AVA: Do you have a favourite choice of a before- or after-rehearsal-snack?

EVIE MORRIS: Absolutely. I love food. Here are all my food things. I could bring out my shopping list. The one I'm doing right now, some people irk at it. But it's Vegemite and avocado sandwich.

Charlotte does not like that, for people listening at home. Charlotte is not a fan. The saltiness of it and then the creamy of the avocado on some really dark rye bread makes me-- and it's like it's the fuel I need. It gets me through. So I'm having that at about 4 o'clock every single day before I go to my night work of teaching. And it gets me through until dinner time.

I'm a fan of a banana, always. After-dance-snack, it's always a lot of water and usually something carbohydratey. So if it's lunch time, it'll be rice and potatoes and some protein and quite simple stuff that's going to keep me going for the next session of the day. Dinner, same thing, pasta-- always good, sun-dried tomatoes, basil.

AVA: I love pasta.

EVIE MORRIS: Can I just talk to people at home now about what I put on my pasta dishes? Here we go-- no. OK. Yeah, I know Vegemite and avocado maybe not great. But a sandwich is always good because I'm usually in the-- I'm usually in the car when I'm driving to the next thing. So it's very easy to eat on my way.

CHARLOTTE: Where do you see yourself in 5 years?

EVIE MORRIS: You know what? I used to be a really like a firm person of '5 years' time, I'm going to be here. Next year, is this. Two years from-- it's this.' And I was very planned out. And that was me in my like, early 20s really thinking that way.

And I think that's my natural personality type anyway. I'm very organised. I really like schedules and planning and things being consistent. But something shifted in me. And I think it was a necessary change being in this kind of industry where it's so freelance. And opportunities come from left of centre all the time that you go, oh, actually, that sounds great. Maybe I'll go do that, as well as what I'm already doing.

So that all culminated in me being this person at the moment in this stage of my life and career of going, I don't quite know what it looks like yet. I have general goals that I would like to be working towards. And I think that's always important to have a direction. So that for me is I'm finishing my master's in arts education dance teaching at the moment, and that's through the Royal Academy of Dance.

And so I'm finishing writing my dissertation, knowing that a master's degree in dance education is going to help me with my broader goals of staying in the education sphere and continuing to work with students like yourselves and at other institutions and bringing dance education up and up and up in Australia. So that's one direction I'm going in.

The other one is that I'm still not done dancing yet. I think I still have a few years left in me maybe. We'll see. So I'll keep taking performance work when it comes, but to a lesser degree because what excites me more now is the creative and choreographic side of things and the education.

Not to say that performing is not exciting-- it is so fun, and I look forward to it every single time I get to do it. But knowing that I'm looking to have a very long career, and that changes over every 5 years and 2 years and 10 years.

It looks different, so the directions I'm going is definitely education, definitely creative industries, and definitely still being a performing artist because I worked so long to get to that point where I was working consistently as a performer, and I can't give that up yet. So yeah, they're my 3 directions.

In terms of what it is in 5 years, like I said, opportunities, they will come from nowhere. And I think your job as a freelance artist is just to be as prepared as possible and then saying yes when you even feel like you're not ready to do that thing. So it's opportunity meets all the hard work you did before that to be able to actually take that on and do the thing that's asked of you. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know, 5 years, we'll see. I'm excited to see.

JOANNE KING: I'm going to finish off with one more question for you, Evie.

EVIE MORRIS: Sure.

JOANNE KING: Do you have any advice for any students out there wishing to take that step to either join the NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble or the step beyond school into their professional career? Something you could advise them on to have that long-standing career that you speak about.

EVIE MORRIS: Sure. I think there's 2 things that I value most in the dancers that I get to work with and that I want to work with when it comes to in the institution. One of them is that showing up is more important than showing off.

And it's something I've said before, and I think it's important to keep reiterating, is that the people who show up really consistently and show me that they're dedicated and disciplined, and they love to be there and all those things, they're the ones that stick in my mind more prominently than the ones who are there, but are showing off and are just taking the spotlight for the wrong reasons. So I think showing up and being consistent is such an important practice. And it makes you stay in people's minds for the right reasons.

The second thing is that I don't think it's the most important thing to be the best dancer in the room. In fact, it's better if you're not in terms of you should always be surrounding yourself with people who are better than you so you have something to work towards and aspire to and have people to admire. So I genuinely believe that I was never the best dancer in the room.

And I say that to people, and they go, no, my god, you must have been amazing. I go, no, no, no, you don't understand. I was never the best. But I think I had enough up here in my head to be able to bide my time so I could improve my physicality as much as my intellectual ability in the room.

So while I was not always the most accomplished technical dancer, especially early on in my career, I was able to hold down the fort, so to speak, and still get performing jobs because I was maybe easier to work with, or I was more humble, or I was more disciplined, or more resilient, or all of these other skills that kind of come through that people really like to work with.

Because like I said earlier, there's plenty of amazing dancers out there. Anyone can do the job. When I go to hire people for music videos or for other gigs I get or whatever, I'm looking for people who are, yes, technical, who fit the brief, all that stuff. But I go, are you going to be good to work with? Are you going to make my life easier as a choreographer? [chuckles] Please don't make it harder.

So I think it's those 2 things. It's the resilience of showing up, but in the right way; and knowing that being the best dancer in the room is not the most important thing that you have to offer to the room.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to Listen @ The Arts Unit, our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au. Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

[upbeat music playing]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, Zahra chats with the NSW Public School's Junior State Dance Ensemble tutor, Jade Webber.

Born in Newcastle, Jade has been involved in the creative and performing arts for over 25 years. She is a primary teacher working in the Hunter Region and successfully owned and operated a performing arts studio for 10 years. Jade has choreographed for major productions, opening ceremonies, and many events during her career.

Teaching and sharing her passion for the performing arts is her dream job. She loves being able to pass on knowledge of composition and performance to inspire the young dancers of today. This is a chance to learn more about Jade's experience in the dance industry, and what it's like working with the NSW Public Schools Junior State Dance Ensemble. Thanks for joining us.

ZAHRA: Hi, I'm Zahra. I go to Morgan Street Public School. Thank you for coming onto our podcast, Jade.

JADE WEBBER: You're welcome. It's a pleasure to be here, Zahra.

ZAHRA: My first question for you today, Jade, is how did your dance journey firstly begin?

JADE WEBBER: So it's quite a funny story. When I was little, I was born with my feet completely turned in. And the doctor suggested to my parents that in order for me to learn to walk properly without needing callipers, which is the little metal things on your legs, to get me started in dancing to help turn my feet out. So mum and dad enrolled me in my very first dance class when I was just over 2. And then it progressively got from one class a week to up to 14, 15 classes a week as I went through school.

Every year my mum and dad would say, 'Would you like to play netball?' 'Would you like to play something else?' And dance just became my passion, I think, as a bit of a mistake. I think it was meant to be an exercise. But it ended up becoming my whole life.

ZAHRA: That's actually really crazy.

JADE WEBBER: It is really crazy. When I tell people, they can't believe that I-- yeah, that's how it started and now what I'm doing today, that it's now a career.

ZAHRA: Mm-hmm. That's definitely not how mine started.

[laughter]

So Jade, where did you study after you left high school?

JADE WEBBER: So I went to Hunter School of Performing Arts up in the Hunter Region. And at the end of Year 12, I had big dreams of wanting to go and do a performing arts degree. The reality of moving away from my parents when I was 18 was a little bit scary at that time, so I didn't actually pursue that. I decided to stay and do a primary teaching degree up in Newcastle at Newcastle University and then transferred onto online teaching when I purchased my own dance studio at the age of 21. And then I continued to do my primary teaching degree alongside running a performing arts studio from the age of 21.

ZAHRA: That's really amazing. I would definitely want to do that, go to a performing art school. Jade, do you still have the performing arts studio now?

JADE WEBBER: So about 3 years ago, I decided that I was juggling a full-time-- my dream job, actually my full-time job at Hunter School of Performing Arts. So where I went to school, I'm now a teacher back at that school. And I get to teach kids dance there.

It was a lot teaching from 9 till 3, and then going to my studio from 3 till 9 pm every night running classes. In the end, I had up to 450 students. And I was managing 20 staff, because we did dance, drama and music lessons.

So I had to make the decision about 3 years ago to choose one job instead of trying to juggle 2 jobs. So I managed to sell the studio. I'm still a guest teacher. I still go back and run workshops and things at the studio. But I was struggling to juggle 2 jobs at the time. And I wanted to start a family and have my beautiful little girl, so yeah, I don't have the studio anymore. But I still get to do and teach kids dance with opportunities like this and also at school every day, being a selective performing arts school.

ZAHRA: That's great. When did you realise you had a passion for choreography?

JADE WEBBER: When I was about 13, I was part of a Hunter Region event called Star Struck, which is an arena spectacular that has dance, drama and music in it. And I noticed that the kids that were a little bit older than me were part of the student production team, which was a group of students that got to choreograph items on the floor for the big show.

At that point, I realised I would like to be part of that team. So from the ages 14 through to 18 I started off as a member of the student production team. And then by the time I was 16, I was the director of the student production team and had the opportunity to then choreograph for primary students, high school students, and create works on the floor in an arena spectacular at the entertainment centre.

So I think back then was where my passion really started for choreography. I was always making up dances at home when I was a little girl and for eisteddfods and impros and things like that. But I think when I really realised that I wanted to choreograph for performances and connect with primary kids and high school kids at the time, that that was where I went, oh, I could do choreography and teaching, which were my 2 passions, and still be heavily involved in the performing arts.

ZAHRA: How would you say you got the director part of the production team?

JADE WEBBER: I think it's because I'm very organised and very-- at the time, I liked to make sure that the rehearsals were really-- I guess there was an order. And the other students at the time, they were fantastic to work with. But I kind of was a natural born leader. And I kind of took the initiative with the group to make sure that we had a rehearsal schedule, make sure that we're on track, and at the time, probably looking back now, took control a little bit of the group.

But they were really, really responsive to that. They were my friends in the end. And they just sort of noticed I had a skill set to lead them. And yeah, from the age of 18, then I was welcomed back as a choreographer. And to this day, I'm now assistant dance director of the whole show.

ZAHRA: I can definitely believe that.

[laughter]

So Jade, what made you want to work in the Arts Unit?

JADE WEBBER: It was the next step in my journey. So because I'm from the Hunter Region, I have been heavily involved with a lot of the performing arts up there, so whether that be, as I mentioned before, Star Struck. I've been the dance director up there for the Hunter Creative Arts Camp, which is a very similar process to this, where you work with students from a range of different schools, high potential students that have the same passion as I did growing up for dance and creating works together.

So being able to come down to Sydney and work with students that are not from here has been a wonderful experience this week, but also making the connections with other colleagues and having that, to build that relationship, to use their brains when I'm running out of ideas and to get feedback, it helps me grow as a learner. So I'm still learning, but I really wanted to come down to the Arts Unit and strengthen and develop my knowledge more but also make connections with people outside of the Hunter Region.

ZAHRA: That sounds amazing.

[laughter]

What qualities do you think make a strong dancer?

JADE WEBBER: I've been asked this. I get asked this a lot at school, because the kids that I teach at school all got in for dance. And they're constantly saying, 'What do I need to do to be the best dancer or the best version of myself?'

I think the biggest thing is you need to be open to change. And you need to be open to be adaptable. So when I say that, don't be scared to go and try a new class with somebody in a style that you're not familiar with.

Pushing yourself as far as you can out of your comfort zone is going to turn you into the best possible dancer that you can be. The more people that you can learn from, the more styles that you can try, even if it's a style that you thought you would never probably use in the future, go and try and take a class in it, because you will learn not only something about that genre of dance, but you will learn maybe, if you want to head into the teaching, how that teacher directs that class, how they warm up, how they get you to try things, how they get you to workshop, how they cool down, just how they even interact with you as a dancer.

The more people that you can engage with and take class from is going to make you a really strong dancer alongside, obviously, the classical technique and making sure that you are keeping that as your foundation. But don't let being scared hold you back. Do as many classes with as many people as you can.

ZAHRA: That's some really good information. What do you say is your favourite style of dance and why?

JADE WEBBER: It used to be tap growing up. It used to be tap. That was what I was-- I would love going to a state fair and doing all of my tap routines. Then it shifted to jazz, and probably more so, I would say, jazz and contemporary have the biggest part in my heart at the moment.

But it shifts and it changes I think, depending on works that I've seen. And then I go back to my school or wherever I'm working, and I try to adapt. But I'd say probably overall, tap would be my go-to.

ZAHRA: That's very interesting. I haven't really been a tapper. I did when I was little, but not really a tapper anymore. I haven't met that many tappers really in my life.

JADE WEBBER: Save that advice that I just gave you. Take some classes and become--

ZAHRA: Maybe I might.

JADE WEBBER: Yeah, become a triple threat. Learn as many styles as you can, even if it's the basics. You go to an audition when you're older, and knowing that you've got that little bit of skill to tap will put you above other people in that audition.

ZAHRA: What advice would you give young dancers about entering the dance world?

JADE WEBBER: Don't be scared like I was when I was 18. [laughs] I think take that challenge and know that you can always go home to mum and dad, but being brave enough to take that risk, to move away for an opportunity or to move away to better yourself as a learner and as a dancer, taking those classes-- I think being brave and being open to whatever possibilities are thrown your way is really important.

And remember to take care of yourself, because you can push too hard. You can definitely push your body to the extreme where you will burn out, so remembering to take time to find another passion as well as dance that you love, that can be your outlet to ensure that you have some downtime, so you don't burn out too quickly.

ZAHRA: That's a really good message for people entering the dance world. Jade, do you have a dance idol or someone that inspires you?

JADE WEBBER: I do. I do, and I actually did my HSC major work based on this choreographer. And I don't get the opportunity to do much with him with that sort of style anymore when I'm doing a lot of the contemporary works. But Bob Fosse, have you heard of him?

ZAHRA: No, I haven't, actually.

JADE WEBBER: So he was a pioneer in the choreography world many, many years ago, well before your time. And he choreographed in musical theatre was his genre. And he instigated and created this beautiful, unique style of dance that once I've pointed it out now, if you go home tonight and you have a look and you google him, you will actually see how frequent it is in musicals across time.

And his style just really appealed to me, because it was so simple, so elegant, but so effective and so powerful. I think he really-- yeah, as I said, when I'm choreographing contemporary works, I don't really get an opportunity to use much of that. But when I'm doing jazz and musical theatre pieces, he is in the back of my mind all the time, my go-to. When things start to get a bit crazy on stage, I just yeah, channel back to him and simplify it, and it comes together beautifully.

ZAHRA: Well, that's amazing. I know that I definitely love musical theatre. It's probably one of my top 3 favourite styles. It's up there.

JADE WEBBER: Do you sing?

ZAHRA: Yes, I do sing.

JADE WEBBER: Good, good. Be the all-rounder.

ZAHRA: Yeah. So Jade, what's more important, turns or jumps?

JADE WEBBER: That's a tough one. That's a really tough one. I think there's a time and place for both, but I want to say turns, only because I think that your alignment, your control, and the ability to stop and start in a direct place is important. I think jumps are great and elevation, but that's a whole different-- that's a whole different kettle of fish. [laughs] So I think turns to me are more important. If you can control turns, I think having that control and that core strength will then enable you to have beautiful jumps.

ZAHRA: Yeah. Well, that's definitely some good information for me, because I need to work on both of those, as they're not my favourite thing to do. If you could rewind time and go back to young Jade, what advice would you tell yourself?

JADE WEBBER: Not to stress, [laughs] not to overthink things, and be brave enough to take that challenge. I think I was such a worrier as a little girl. I was always worried that I wasn't doing things the right way. And I was too afraid to roll across the floor and try something new. I had to make sure that it was precise, and it was exact, and my arms and my head and my feet were in the right spot. I think to let go more would be advice I would like to rewind and give myself. Yeah, I think that.

ZAHRA: That's definitely some great advice, especially for many young people, so yeah. If you had one word to describe yourself, what would it be and why?

JADE WEBBER: Motivated, I think. I can't sit still, so I struggle to switch off. I struggle to-- even when I'm supposed to be having downtime, I think that I-- it's that overthinking that I was just talking about. I can't sit there and watch a movie without listening to the soundtrack and thinking, oh, I could use that in a dance, or a TV show or something like that. So I think motivated and driven would be my personality.

ZAHRA: It's definitely a great word to describe you, I think. Jade, do you have anything else to add?

JADE WEBBER: I would like to thank you, Zahra. Those questions really stopped and made me think about my journey, and how I've got to be here and reflect a little bit, which I often don't take time to do. So thank you for those questions.

And it's been an absolute pleasure to get to know you this week as a dancer. And I hope that you continue with the passion and the drive that I've seen in the workshops this week. You're a very, very special girl. And I think you're going to go places, so keep dancing.

ZAHRA: Thank you, and thanks for coming, Jade. We really appreciate it.

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

[upbeat music playing]

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au. Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright-- State of NSW Department of Education 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, Thomas chats with NSW Public Schools Senior State Dance Ensemble tutor Lee Johnston. Lee trained at the Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts. In 2004, she joined the National Dance Company of Wales after dancing with LINK Dance Company in Australia.

As a choreographer, creative producer and rehearsal director, Lee has worked with international and Australian dance companies. Lee has performed throughout the UK, Europe, China, Cuba and India. She has a Master's in Management, Arts and Cultural from the University of Australia and currently works at the Marian Street Theatre for Young People. This is a chance to learn more about Lee's experience in the dance industry and what it's like working with the NSW Public Schools State Dance Ensemble. Thanks for listening.

THOMAS: Hi. My name is Tom, from Blayney High, and we have Lee Johnston here. Thank you for joining the podcast.

LEE JOHNSTON: No worries.

THOMAS: I just have some questions to ask you, if that's fine.

LEE JOHNSTON: Yes.

THOMAS: So what led you to become a dancer and choreographer?

LEE JOHNSTON: Oh, wow. So I'm not sure anything led me to it, as in I finished high school, and I was in the State Senior Ensemble in high school. And I started a degree at University of Sydney. And I found myself choreographing whilst on the bus to and from or making up exercises for class. And that's when I was in the flow. That's when I was happy and calm.

So I just looked at dance degrees because I didn't even know that such a thing existed. So from there, I applied for some dance degrees. My first audition for the dance degree was with WAAPA in Perth, and I got in. And I loved the audition, so I just took it, so I didn't bother going to the rest of the auditions for QUT or anywhere else. So I went, and I thought, I'll just do the degree, get it out of my system, and then I'll go back to a proper degree, you know, 'proper degree'. But I did it, and I turned out I was OK at it. So I just kept going from there.

THOMAS: And you said that you were recently-- well, you were part of the State Dance Ensemble. How did that help you moving forward into your tertiary education for dance?

LEE JOHNSTON: Oh, I think it had given me experience that I wouldn't have gotten just going to my normal dance classes every week at my local ballet school. So with the State Senior Ensemble, I got to go to Darwin. There was a big festival, high school dance festival, I think. I don't remember what festival it was, but I remember going.

I remember attending loads of workshops, and I remember performing on the big theatre in Darwin. And then in Year 12, of all the years to do this in, we did a tour to America. And we were so fortunate. We went to New York. We did a class at Alvin Ailey. We watched performances us. And then we performed our pieces at Disney World, in Orlando, Florida.

And then we went down to Miami, and it was the high school dance festival there. And you had to audition for all the schools. And I got an offer for a school in America. And I almost took it. And I thought, no, no, I don't want to leave my family, so I didn't take it.

But it was a confidence boost. I did things I never thought I'd do. I did classes in New York City with Alvin Ailey in high school, you know? And so I just would never have done that otherwise.

THOMAS: When you were choreographing, what do you believe is the most important part of the creating process of a dance?

LEE JOHNSTON: Wow, that's a big question. Really it's about believing in what you're doing, once you find the thing that you just can't stop thinking about it, and you have to get it out. So I have a very typical process now for myself that makes me feel comfortable, that I know it's going to turn out OK.

So I need the music. So I need the music and the idea to be holistic and work together. Otherwise, one doesn't come from the other. I just can't make it work. So once I've got the music, I map out the music rhythmically and in bars of whatever the time signature is. And then I can grow the idea from there. But I have to be obsessed with that idea.

So I've had big gaps in choreographing, so I just haven't choreographed anything for years. Because I've not had something that's driven me to choreograph. So if I don't have that thing driving me, it's just not going to come out.

THOMAS: Is that drive what helped you create your probably most famous piece, 'They Seek to Find the Happiness They Seem'?

LEE JOHNSTON: Oh, yes, and that was the most easiest thing to choreograph in the world just because it just flowed out of me. So I found the music that matched my idea. And I would just close my eyes, listen to the music, and it would appear in front of me.

And then I'd get in the studio. I'd make the movement. I'd teach the dancers the movement. They were totally on board. We all knew it was happening and working and right. So it flowed and it was magic. It was such a magic piece, yeah.

THOMAS: And in the years leading up to COVID, you were overseas with the Wales National Dance Company. How was it working with an overseas company instead of somewhere in Australia?

LEE JOHNSTON: That's a really interesting question. So actually, I've had more experience overseas, in Europe and the UK, than in Australia. So I did LINK after my WAAPA degree, so I did one year in that. But even that, it's still a university-based company. And so you're still in an institution. You're not really experiencing what the Australian dance industry or scene is really like.

And after that, I went straight to Europe. And I spent my most of my whole career in Europe. I had a short stint back here in 2014-15 with Sydney Dance Company, which was absolutely magical. But yeah, most of my time is over there. So I'm still actually learning more. I'm learning about the Australian dance scene. Yeah.

THOMAS: And while you were over at the National Dance Company of Wales, you were both a choreographer and a rehearsal director. What would you say is the biggest difference between the 2?

LEE JOHNSTON: Oh, so when you're a choreographer, you're driving the room with your vision from the outset. But when you're a rehearsal director, you are that choreographer's right-hand person. And you have to buy into what they're trying to do and support the dancers to also discover that vision and buy into it. So that's your role in that aspect.

And then the choreographer leaves after 6 weeks, sometimes only 4 weeks. And as the rehearsal director, you have to carry that energy and vision on for another year, another 2 years, 3 years. You carry that information from the choreographer, and you have to keep their vision true and alive. So that's the difference.

And I loved rehearsal directing. I absolutely loved it because I got to work with a team of dancers in-depth day in, day out, year on, year end, and help them grow and become the most magnificent performers that they could be.

THOMAS: Once you'd finished over at the National Dance Company, you'd come back to Australia and started becoming the executive director at Marian Street for Young People. What then led you to work alongside the Arts Unit for state dance ensembles?

LEE JOHNSTON: Oh, that's a wonderful question. So I came back to have my second baby here in Australia. And I was on maternity leave. And I was rebuilding my-- I was starting a new life in Australia. And I'd left my dance career behind, and I had a full network and of contacts. And I had lots going on.

And I had to start again, in a way, here in Australia. And so I was looking around for what I could do. And I thought about the Arts Unit. And I knew that this existed and was happening. And I thought, how can I be one of those teachers that I had?

And I looked it up. And there it was. There was this form on the website. And so I filled out the form, thinking no one will ever contact me. And then they did. And I feel really lucky because I get to do my job at Marian Street Theatre for Young People, which is all new for me and new learning.

I'm in arts management. And it's theatre. It's a different art form. But I get to come and work back in my art form and do what is my expertise and do what I love and I'm passionate about. And that's just a really nice balance for me, and I feel really privileged. I'm really grateful to be able to do it as it comes up.

THOMAS: Would you have any advice that you'd like to give any aspiring dancers that would like to end up choreographing or moving overseas for dance?

LEE JOHNSTON: Yes. It's hard. It is hard. And it's wonderful. It is that mix of hard and wonderful that comes with everything in life. And there's going to be hard times, and there's going to be joyous times. So you just have to stay grounded and true to yourself the whole time.

And you will grow and change. And new things will become your new truth. So I knew, at some point, I needed to come back here. And so I did. I got up, and I left it all, and I came back. And I knew that I had to go there after graduating. I knew I had to give it a go. And I stuck it out.

And I was challenged. Sometimes, I didn't think I was good enough. At times, I didn't think I would ever make it. At times, there was a long stretch. I never got any roles in pieces that I was happy with. And I got really self-critical. And I dug deep.

And I thought, just enjoy it. Just try to enjoy it. Go on tour and visit magic places in Europe. And you're dancing-- great.

So the advice would be, it's not going to be some glorious, magical thing all the time. You're going to have to dig deep. At the end of the day, it is work. And that comes with everything.

THOMAS: Thank you, Lee, for all that information. It really helped hearing all the things that you've gone through, and how you've progressed through your career, and how other people are able to do the same things. Thank you for being on this podcast.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres strait islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, the hosts, Bethany and Mikayla spoke with NSW Public Schools Senior Dance Ensemble tutor, Lexy Panetta.

Lexy is a Sydney-based dancer, choreographer and educator with a strong interest in choreographic research, writing, film and education. She has completed a bachelor of arts dance and education, an honours degree in dance studies, and most recently completed her master's in philosophy, higher-degree research in creative practice.

Lexy has performed and choreographed live works and film projects across Australia and overseas and has worked in the dance sector for organisations such as Ausdance, Sydney Dance Company, and the Department of Education. Lexy is the learning associate for Sydney Dance Company and currently works as an academic for the Australian College of Physical Education, lecturing in their education and dance degrees. This is a chance to learn more about Lexy's experience in the industry and what it's like working with the NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble. Thanks for tuning in to this episode.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: This is Bethany from J J Cahill Memorial High School.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: And this is Mikayla Thomas from Engadine High School.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: So our first question for you is, what is your favourite food?

LEXY PANETTA: Well, that's really easy for me. My favourite food is definitely 100% pasta.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: What is your favourite dance genre?

LEXY PANETTA: I would have to say contemporary, I think, because it definitely lends from a lot of different other styles and other backgrounds of dance that make it entirely unique to the dancer. So I love being able to dance contemporary and teach contemporary styles the most.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: Would you say you grew up doing contemporary?

LEXY PANETTA: Not necessarily. I grew up learning a lot of different dance styles, but I would have to say that when I started to be interested in dance and take it seriously, I definitely put my focus and attention into contemporary practice.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: Besides dancing, what would be your dream job?

LEXY PANETTA: Oh, I often think with all of the roles that I'm doing in the dance industry and dance space, I feel like I have a lot of my dream jobs, but it's hard to take my brain out of dance. But I think if I were to pick something, I think I'd like to work with film and work in the film industry or with animals. I love animals.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: We all love our animals. If you could describe yourself in 3 words, what would those 3 words be?

LEXY PANETTA: Oh, definitely silly, advantageous, sometimes to my detriment, and short, tiny.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: Aren't we both 5' 3"?

LEXY PANETTA: Yeah, yeah, I might be even under 5' 3". I'm not too sure. I avoid it.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: When you're not dancing, what do you enjoy doing the most?

LEXY PANETTA: Oh, I love the outdoors, and I love-- I grew up in the bush, so I love kind of taking some time to be immersed in some nature. I love going for long walks in the bush when I have the time to plan it.

But I also just love sitting around and reading whenever I have time to just relax and chill. That's what I find is most peaceful, just getting a book and relaxing with it. Otherwise, that's kind of rare. I do spend a lot of my time involving my brain in research, so kind of thinking of other ways of looking at dance and keeping busy with my brain that way.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: So you're a teacher at the Arts Unit, correct?

LEXY PANETTA: Yes.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: Yes, so what made you want to join the Arts Unit?

LEXY PANETTA: Well, I went to a public school, and I learnt majority of my incredible dance knowledge from school and learning from my teachers and the public school system. And I guess I have such a strong admiration for all educators who dedicate their time and their knowledge in dance practice for co-curricular activities.

So when I was younger and in school, the school that I went to collaborated a lot with the Arts Unit, so I had a lot of knowledge of the programs through that way. And then when I went to university, I was studying education and also dance practice, so it felt like a natural progression for me to work with dancers in the education scene in Sydney and NSW and also to try and offer what my practices are to those young, tenacious students.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: That sounds so incredible. And what would you say is the highlight of your career, Lexy?

LEXY PANETTA: My career highlight-- oh goodness. I think there's a lot of different highlights for me that stand out and keep me moving forward and keep me passionate for dance. One would definitely be my studies that I've done at university. They've been a massive highlight. They've opened up my mind and my practices to a lot of different things.

Writing a big thesis, a big dissertation, was a highlight, albeit it was extremely stressful, and the projects are still turning in my mind. But I really love committing and devoting my time and attention to the practice.

And I'd have to say, also, I have a wonderful opportunity in my other roles where I get to travel a lot for dance, and that is such a wonderful experience because I get to outreach with other amazing dancers or other communities who want to know more about artistic practice and movement. And I get to share. So that's a massive highlight I get to commit to every year and have the opportunity to travel around dancing.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: On the subject of travel, what places have you travelled before?

LEXY PANETTA: Well, that's a really good question. I have travelled in Australia to every state and territory for dancing on my regional tours and national tours for the Sydney Dance Company. Then in my own world, in my own industry practice, I've travelled a little bit around NSW for dancing as an independent choreographer.

But more specifically, I moved to Germany when I was finishing my first university degree to dance and to practise my movement skills and my filmic contributions over there, and that was a lot of fun. I spent some time living in Berlin, making and choreographing work, and collaborating with fantastic artists. But I have travelled a lot around Europe for holidays, and that's been often really fun. But particularly, dancing in London, Paris, and Berlin have been highlights as well.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: If you could live anywhere, where would you live? That's probably a very hard question because--

LEXY PANETTA: Not at all.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: Oh, excellent, excellent. Tell.

LEXY PANETTA: I feel like there's a part of me somewhere that lives in Paris subconsciously.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: Don't we all?

LEXY PANETTA: I'm always thinking about it.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: It's beautiful.

LEXY PANETTA: It's such a beautiful city. Every time I've been there, I often feel like I could live there so easily and just integrate into their wonderful city, and hopefully, maybe that might happen one day.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: So what other occupations do you do other than the Arts Unit?

LEXY PANETTA: Well, I have worked for the Arts Unit for quite some time. I've been a dance tutor for the Arts Unit for 9 years now, and whilst doing that, I have had other roles that overlap with the practice.

Currently, I work as a teaching artist for the Sydney Dance Company, and I've done that for quite some years now. And that job involves working in education and with the company to teach repertoire and creative practice and methodology from the company around Australia and around NSW. So that is one of my roles that I've been doing for the last 6 or 7 years.

And then on top of that, I also work for the Sydney Dance Company as a contemporary dance teacher, and more specifically, I work as a learning associate. So I work very closely with their pre-professional year company and look at all of their accredited courses and making resources for them and creating other opportunities as well.

I also work as an academic at the Australian College of Physical Education, teaching in both the dance faculty and the education faculty. So that role requires me to create courses for a university level and teach students from first year up until fourth year for students studying dance practice, dance education. So that's how I also spend my time working as well.

I do also do a lot of independent gigs here and there and around. It just all depends on my schedule.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: What would you say is your favourite part of your job? Because you seem so busy going to all these places teaching all these young-- all ages. What would you say is your favourite part of it?

LEXY PANETTA: Oh, there's a lot of beautiful benefits that come with all these fantastic roles. I'd have to say the connection and engaging with different people of all ages, as you say, Bethany, engaging with different students or learners who just come with their own experience and their own willingness to learn. I love sharing my practices and whatever knowledge I can offer to anyone who's interested. So that kind of engagement and learning about others and putting that into practice is really important for contemporary dance, so I love being able to share that.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: What advice would you give to some young dancers that are trying to get into the dance industry?

LEXY PANETTA: Well, I think it is really important to put your feelers out there, so try and try and get a grasp of all the different things that are possible and sign up to as many opportunities as you can because you don't really know what you love until you try it. So it's important for you to make sure that you are investing the time and the effort and your energy into a variety of different things, so you can work out what fits you. And then it's only through understanding those practices that you can then take that into your own career trajectory and evolve it into your own practice as you emerge into the dance world.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: So going back to Sydney Dance Company, what is it like collaborating with the professionals there?

LEXY PANETTA: Well, there's so many different incredible people to collaborate with, and in their open programs, their vocational programs as well, so the dancers learning in the pre-professional year, Years 1 and 2, and also the fabulous company. It's really inspiring to be a part of all that activity throughout, and watching how things happen in the studio before they get elevated and taken into the performance scene is really exciting.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: So before we heard that your favourite dance genre was contemporary, do you think you specialise in this style in your choreography or other styles?

LEXY PANETTA: I think I most certainly do. I tend to-- even when I try to separate myself from it, I kind of wind back there because, for me, contemporary style feels most natural to my body, and that's how I like to express my movement. So I really love finding fluidity and catching momentum through activity and actions in dancing. So even though I love jazz-- one of my favourite choreographic styles used to be Fosse jazz, but then that kind of got overtaken by contemporary.

But yeah, I definitely say that is my favourite and what I like to focus on the most, even though I do love other styles, and I also love classical ballet, too. It's just not as fun to choreograph in my mind because it seems a little bit prescriptive at times, but contemporary allows me to be a bit more free.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: In the Arts Unit, what have you enjoyed most working with the ensembles?

LEXY PANETTA: I would have to say our weekly rehearsals are really fun. I love getting to know the students each and every year, and sometimes, as tutors, we get the privilege of seeing some students evolve throughout their whole schooling with the Arts Unit. They might be a part of the program from primary all the way up to Year 12.

And then often, it's likely that they come into PPY in Sydney Dance Company, and I get to see them there and watch them evolve, which is so lovely. But I do think the connection to the students and fostering their creative growth is the most rewarding part of teaching for the Arts Unit, and also, having a fun place to toss about ideas creatively and try movement styles on the dancers and work and choreograph stuff together is really fun and very rewarding.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: It's so beautiful. It's like you get to see them grow up--

LEXY PANETTA: Yeah, absolutely.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: --and parent them in that way. It's beautiful.

LEXY PANETTA: Yeah, it does feel really nice to watch them evolve and see how they start and then where they end.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: And would you say you're an introvert or an extrovert?

LEXY PANETTA: I think I can be a bit of both. It depends on how much coffee I've had and how much energy I've got, but when I feel really energised, I think I can be an extrovert because I get a lot of energy from other people's energy as well. But then again, when I'm relaxing, I could be quite introverted as well.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: You obviously have this amazing career of all these different options. Do you have any long-term achievements or goals?

LEXY PANETTA: I think it's really important to continue to have a goal. Even though you achieve other things perhaps in your career, it's a really good way to keep your mind open to the possibilities of learning, so I definitely have many goals that I'm still striving towards, some of which are sometimes like dreams and some of which might seem a bit more attainable.

But at the moment, I'm striving towards completing a philosophy doctorate in creative practice and wanting to continue my writing and research. That's kind of my biggest goal at the moment that's on the horizon, and when that's finished, I'll find a new one.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: It's like you're like a doctor dancer. You know what I mean? You have all these amazing things. It's so cool.

LEXY PANETTA: Thank you, Bethany.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: What are some of your top tips for dancers?

LEXY PANETTA: I think respect yourself and respect the incredible practitioners who have got something to offer you. Turn up and invest yourself fully before dismissing anything. I know often, when you're learning something new, it can feel really foreign or it can feel really overwhelming, or you might not like things at first. But from my own experience, I think the more I sink myself into things, the more I get out of it. So that comes into commitment and effort.

Just putting yourself into a practice fully so that you can get the most out of it is a really excellent piece of advice I would give to young dancers, and also to not be so hard on yourselves. I know in dance, it's really easy. We work in front of a mirror all the time. We work in front of and around incredible dancers.

Always give yourself some credit. You deserve it. You're an individual in the space. You deserve to be there, and don't forget that you can claim that space. That space is there for you.

So if you really love dancing and you really want to make a career out of it, the best advice I can give is to honour yourself and honour what you learn and keep striving. You'll keep improving and growing if you remain open to the learning.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: That's some beautiful advice. I really like that.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: What are some of the challenges you face when choreographing new pieces?

LEXY PANETTA: There's always evident challenges, and I know in dance we're kind of used to seeing the final product. And it's so perfect, and it's on stage. And it's got costumes and fancy lights.

But the actual choreographic process can often be really challenging and also really adventurous and fun. I have a variety of different choreographic methods that I like to play with in the studio. I love improvisation. So I often come into the studio with a bit of a collection of ideas that I want to explore, but the exploration takes place when I start moving.

But that's only one way to work. A lot of different choreographers have a bunch of different ways and approaches that they take forth in their practices, but for me, improvisation is definitely my driving force because it helps me be more inspired by what I am doing. And how my body is cultivating and stretching and rolling and finding new ways to connect to ideas through movement is really important for me.

But I also like scoring. So scoring is kind of like music notation. I like writing down different creative writings and clippings that help me connect the improvisation into an intention, and that's often the way I tend to work. But there's always cut and paste. There's always delete this part and try again because the choreographic process is definitely a process, which means it takes some time and a lot of different ways and approaches to get it right.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: So we just started our piece with you in the Arts Unit. Would you say you included this idea of improvisation and intent in our piece?

LEXY PANETTA: Absolutely. I certainly have. I started with an idea that I had read in a text, and then I kind of deep-dove into some research about that idea, which is a pretty common practice for me in my choreographic method. I like to start with an idea and then pull it apart, find different elements of it that I want to explore.

And then I tend to kind of use words as a way to start that process off. As you guys know, we've used some words like 'velocity', 'physics', 'dynamic forces'. We've used a lot of different words that I've shared with you.

And then they're just a stepping stone point to allow me to create some other scores that we might use for improvisation. So each time I'm in the studio or preparing to teach you guys new pieces of choreography, I'm usually letting those words be the influence behind what I'm doing with my body, and then I'll do a lot of repetition through improvisation in order to find what flows really well.

And that's how I like to choreograph so that things have a logical flow and a logical sequence in the body so that they don't look distorted unless I'm trying to challenge that directly. So improvisation has been a massive contributor to all of the choreographies that I've made over the years with the Arts Unit and in my other independent practices as well.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: I think what I've loved most about being in the Arts Unit with you is the I like the intent of the dance because I think, a lot of the time, you don't really get that at the dance studio. So it's really nice how we can come here and work with you in that way.

LEXY PANETTA: I'm so pleased that you're enjoying the process. It's really lovely to share these weird and wonderful things that I like to conjure up and share with you and get your responses to. It's really great to be in a collaborative classroom where you guys are also feeding into the process with me. That's the most rewarding part of choreographing for you guys as well.

BETHANY RODRIGUEZ: It's been such a great opportunity for you being our teacher and having you here today and answering these questions, and we thank you.

MIKAYLA THOMAS: Thank you.

LEXY PANETTA: Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely to chat.

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

[upbeat music playing]

ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

[intro sting]

ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode's hosts, Milla and Eloise, spoke with the NSW Public Schools Primary Dance Ensemble tutor, Pete Evans. Pete is in high demand as a teacher and choreographer across Australia due to his unique athletic style of dance.

Pete has worked extensively with world-renowned company Opera Australia, performing as a seasonal dancer and actor. Pete's commitment to being a dependable and well-rounded performer has helped him cultivate a career spanning many facets of the dance industry. He prides himself on the opportunities he has earned, as well as the creatives he has worked with.

This is a chance to learn more about Pete's experience in the dance industry and what it's like working with the NSW Public Schools Primary Dance Ensemble. Thanks for tuning in to this episode.

ELOISE: Hi, I'm Eloise from Byron Bay Public School.

MILLA: Hi, I'm Milla from Bondi Beach Public School. Welcome our guest, Pete.

PETE EVANS: Hi, guys. How you doing?

ELOISE: Good, thank you. How are you?

PETE EVANS: I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me. This is exciting.

ELOISE: How old were you when you decided to pursue dance as a career, and why?

PETE EVANS: Oh, good question. So I was, actually, a bit of a late bloomer. So I started dancing when I was 16. I trained with a dance school group, actually. It was through my high school. And we had an external choreographer similar to what I do with you guys now, actually, who owned a dance studio that was local to my house and invited me to join.

And then I began dancing when I was 16, which meant that I had to play the catch-up game a little bit with my training. But I'm really, really grateful for that. I feel like I had a bit more of a mature approach, I suppose, to it because I was older. And it also means that that passion didn't falter or die off after a while. I'm still very, very passionate about it because I think I had to fight for it a little bit more.

ELOISE: Yeah, that's good. What school did you go to?

PETE EVANS: I went to Springwood High School, which is in the Blue Mountains-- very proud.

MILLA: Was it cold?

PETE EVANS: Was it cold? Yes, it was freezing. Have you been to the Blue Mountains before? It's very cold up there.

ELOISE: Yeah.

MILLA: How long have you been working with the Arts Unit?

PETE EVANS: I started working with the Arts Unit, I believe, in 2018. So this is my sixth year now. So I began as a choreographer in Schools Spectacular and then, since then, have just been working on a lot of other smaller projects throughout the unit. It's my favourite job, so I'm holding on pretty tight. I'm hoping to be with the Arts Unit for a very long time.

MILLA: Who or what was your inspiration as a young dancer?

PETE EVANS: Who or what? Wow, OK. Well, I used to always look up to the older students at my studio. I remember those that were graduating a couple years ahead of me, I always really, really strived to be able to move like them and to, I don't know, have similar goals to them and things like that. I remember I was also exposed to a lot of the full-time schools around Sydney, so I was able to watch a lot of performances with those guys that were performing and then be able to aspire to be kind of like them.

I also grew up around the time that YouTube videos and things like that started to become really, really popular. So I was able to watch a lot of dancers in LA and London and things like that. So that was offering a lot of inspiration to me, as well. Definitely, in regards to dancing, it would have been them, those higher-profile choreographers and dancers from internationals.

ELOISE: Have you danced with any of them nowadays?

PETE EVANS: Such a good question. I have been very lucky in that I was able to travel overseas. I spent a little bit of time in Los Angeles and was able to take class with a lot of them. They teach regularly over there, and I was able to go over and take a few classes and participate and meet them and ask questions to them, similar to what you're doing to me now.

So yes, I guess, is the answer to that question. Yeah, I have been able to meet them and to collaborate and work with them. And I'm actually good friends with a lot of them now, which is really, really lovely.

ELOISE: Do you do a lot of dancing outside of teaching?

PETE EVANS: Oh, wow, good question. I do, yes. So I-- again, I don't get to do as much class as what I would love to do. But a lot of the time, gigs and jobs and things like that that I do outside of teaching often require me to rehearse dancing. So I use that as my training sometimes.

I would always love to do more. I think that it's really, really important for a dancer to continue training throughout any age, right up until the end, so whatever that end might be, not that there needs to be one. But I definitely think that, yeah, I would like to be doing more class. But I do definitely still get to dance a lot, which I'm very grateful for.

MILLA: How much training did you do when you were younger?

PETE EVANS: Ooh, OK. So I danced every night when I was-- like, Year 10 onwards. So I was doing all different types of dancing, all of the genres. And I was training at my studio every night for roughly, maybe, 3 to 4 hours.

MILLA: Wow.

PETE EVANS: Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. I never saw my parents. They just assumed that I was at home in the morning when they were leaving for work. I then decided to pursue it further and go to a full-time school. So once I graduated high school, I decided to do my certificate 4 in dance at Ev & Bow, which is a contemporary school in the Sutherland Shire.

And that was full time. So that was from 8 till 4 every day of the week, minus weekends. And that was-- there was a lot of class every day of all different types, as well. And then that was for 2 years. So once I graduated that, I had done a lot of training.

ELOISE: Wow, you did heaps.

PETE EVANS: A lot, yes-- a lot.

ELOISE: How many hours do you teach nowadays?

PETE EVANS: Again, I teach a lot of hours. I teach most nights and most days. I really, really love it, so it doesn't ever feel like work for me. So I always am, kind of, a sucker for saying yes to a new teaching opportunity, which is, I think, a really exciting thing. It means that I love my job.

I roughly teach, maybe, 3 to 4 hours every day. Sometimes that's at night at a night studio , or it's for the Arts Unit, like I take Monday nights with you guys. Or I'll teach during the day at different colleges around Sydney. So yeah, roughly between 3 to 4 hours, I would say, every day.

MILLA: Whoa.

PETE EVANS: Yeah. I love it, though. It doesn't feel like work.

ELOISE: That's good.

PETE EVANS: Yes.

MILLA: Did you always know that you wanted dance to be your future?

PETE EVANS: Oh, good question. No, I actually didn't. I grew up being a drama kid. So I was always set on being an actor-- always creative. I was always definitely involved in the performing arts. But I definitely had my eyes set more on acting, rather than dancing.

And then it was through a program called Rock Eisteddfod, which I don't believe runs anymore, but it was kind of a happy blend of both. And then, because I was acting in that, it kind of-- that transition very organically happened. And then I discovered dance. And then, I don't know, just fell in love with that.

But I feel like the 2 go hand in hand, anyway. So I think the minute that I had started training dance a bit more seriously, that was when I knew that that was definitely what I wanted to do.

ELOISE: Do you still do drama and acting now?

PETE EVANS: I do. I am employed currently with Opera Australia, so I'm actually an actor with them. So I started in the company as a dancer and have been working as an actor with them on different shows the past couple of years. So I'm still definitely doing the swapping between the 2. What about you guys? Have you ever been interested in acting, as well?

ELOISE: I want to start doing some acting.

PETE EVANS: You should. You definitely should. What about you?

MILLA: I want to, but I'm not the best at it, but I'm sure I'll get better.

PETE EVANS: Yeah, but that's-- you gotta train it. And that's why it's exciting. Give it a go.

MILLA: What has been your worst injury through dance, and how did you stay motivated through that time?

PETE EVANS: Well, I'm very lucky in that I haven't really been too seriously injured in the time that I've danced. I did have a very mild stress fracture in my back back when I danced at a night school when I was about 17, which put me on the sideline for, maybe, about 10 weeks.

MILLA: Oh, that's sad.

PETE EVANS: Yeah, it was hard-- hurt a lot. But that's really the only serious injury that I've ever had. The way to stay motivated-- well, I just-- I loved it so much that I would still attend all the classes, and I'd sit at the front, and I'd be marking everything, sitting down. And I think if you love something that much and you're so determined to always do it, I think you find that motivation. Do you agree?

MILLA: Yeah, I do.

PETE EVANS: Yeah. Have you guys ever been injured?

ELOISE: No.

MILLA: Oh, yeah, once, I hurt my back. And then I had to dance. So then my dance teacher had to change a few things--

PETE EVANS: Oh, that's a good dance teacher.

MILLA: --because we had it in a competition.

PETE EVANS: Right. That's a good dance teacher.

MILLA: Yeah.

ELOISE: Not really through dancing, but once I was jumping on the trampoline, and I did a back handspring. And I landed on my neck, and I had to go to hospital for a bit.

PETE EVANS: Oh, no. You're OK now, though?

ELOISE: Yeah.

PETE EVANS: OK. Thank goodness.

MILLA: That's good. If you were to have one dance goal, what would it be?

PETE EVANS: That's a really good question. I wouldn't say that I necessarily have a goal of a job. I don't necessarily have something that I'm aiming towards. I think now that I'm older and get to do so many different things within the dance industry, I just would really like to be someone who is dependable and who is looked up to by the younger generations, I would say.

Because I get to teach everybody so much, I think that would be definitely a goal. I would want to be known for being a good ambassador of what dance is and just be able to teach people how to do it properly and how to do it kindly. So that would definitely be a goal of mine, I would say.

MILLA: What is it that made you choose to work as a tutor at the NSW State Dance Ensemble?

PETE EVANS: Oh, wow. I am in love with the team at the Arts Unit. I think that everybody gets on really, really well, those that are permanent there and, also, those that are external. I think it's a really strong, tight-knit team who are working towards a very, very similar goal, which I think is really important.

Because I've been able to do so many different jobs and projects and things with the Arts Unit, I just am always very trusting to say yes to them because I know it's going to be of high quality and very beneficial to those students that are involved in it.

The idea of being able to teach weekly, I think, was also really, really exciting. I'd never got to be a part of any of the Arts Units projects at my high school, so I'm now experiencing them from a whole different perspective. And I'm learning just as much as you guys in that process. So I'm really, really enjoying being able to teach weekly, to meet all you guys, to connect with you guys. There's so many benefits and pros to this job, so I'm always going to say yes.

ELOISE: Was there ever a point in dance where you thought about stopping?

PETE EVANS: Oh, good question. No, I've never actually had that. Because I think, again, circling back, because I started later, I've never felt that burnout or that want to do something else because I've never experienced anything else, if that makes sense, so I've never wanted to not be doing what I'm doing.

I think that's why COVID was a tricky time for a lot of people. Because I think a lot of people were forced to reassess what they were doing and why they were doing it. And then, during that time, I found a lot of comfort in that, even in that time where I couldn't do what I loved to do, that's all I wanted to do.

So I wanted to dance, and I wanted to be back with all of the people that I love, doing what I love. And because I wasn't able to, that was solidifying that it was what I was meant to be doing. How did you guys find COVID? Did you struggle with it?

ELOISE: Yeah, I found it really hard.

PETE EVANS: Did you guys go onto Zoom with your studios?

MILLA: Yeah.

PETE EVANS: How did you find that?

MILLA: It was hard work trying to keep up.

PETE EVANS: It's hard work, isn't it? But did it make you want to dance in the room more?

ELOISE: Yeah, a lot more.

PETE EVANS: A lot more, right? And then you were really, really appreciated it when we all got to go back and connect again.

MILLA: Yeah, I loved it.

PETE EVANS: Yes. It was so different, wasn't it?

ELOISE: Yeah. When you dance and teach, how do you feel in the moment? Is it the same or different feeling?

PETE EVANS: In comparison to dancing and teaching?

MILLA: Yeah.

PETE EVANS: It's a very different feeling, I would say. I would say that teaching is a lot more collaborative, so I'm sharing that feeling with those people that I'm in the room with, whereas dancing, in a really lovely way, I can be quite selfish with it and that if I'm performing, that's for me.

And that's my experience in that moment by myself, which I really never take for granted, and I always make sure that I'm very, very aware of that moment, whereas with teaching, I'm really excited because I get to collaborate with those people that I'm in the room with. I get to meet new people. I'm feeling what they're feeling, and we're exchanging energy and all that sort of stuff. So I would say they're very, very different. But I'm always very happy in either space. I love them both equally.

MILLA: How do you come up with the choreography on the spot?

PETE EVANS: On the spot-- ooh-- again, collaboratively. So I really, really enjoy having a very candid conversation with the dancer that I'm working with, or dancers that I'm working with, and them being able to communicate to me what they can offer and what they can bring to the process.

And then, in turn, I can offer my expert-- expertise, sorry. And then we can, together, come up with something, a form of movement, that matches both of those things and both of us can be proud of, I would say. So I'm always very, very on board with collaborating with those people that I'm teaching.

ELOISE: What is the funniest experience or moment that you have had during your time performing?

PETE EVANS: One moment that's really, really stuck with me-- and it might not be funny, but, to me, it's hilarious-- was during one of our Rock Eisteddfod performances in high school. Our theme that we did for our piece was 'Where the Wild Things Are', that children's storybook.

And my part was I played a sea monster. That was my role in it. And I had to swim around and pretend to attack a boat. And during the performance, the sail came loose and wrapped around my head. And I had to, during that performance, unwrap that sail from my head, completely blind, all the while trying to still do the choreography.

And it wasn't as dramatic as I probably remember it, but in my head, it was just the funniest thing that had ever happened to me in that moment. And I'm sure you can picture big, tall, lanky Pete flailing about with a sail wrapped around his head.

So it's pretty-- it's pretty funny. What about you guys? What's the funniest thing that's ever happened to you guys on stage?

MILLA: Probably when you go to a competition, and the stage is really small. And you just look at it and it's like, um.

PETE EVANS: 100%. That's always hilarious-- never for the dance teacher in the moment. They're always hating it. But when you get there and the stage is half the size, and you all have to just squish on stage like sardines, that's always very funny, especially remembering it back the week later.

ELOISE: To do with that, in our studio, we have a dance where the whole studio does it. There's about 130 people doing it. And we went to the Easter Show, and the stage was really small.

PETE EVANS: That is a very small stage.

ELOISE: So when we tried to fit everyone on, there was, I think, 30 people dancing.

PETE EVANS: And everybody else just in the wings, giving their best jazz hands.

ELOISE: Yeah.

PETE EVANS: That's what I picture, yeah-- hilarious. I love stuff like that.

ELOISE: If you could turn back in time to talk to your 12-year-old self, what would you tell him?

PETE EVANS: Ooh, getting deep, guys. What would I tell him? I would tell him to not worry what anybody else thinks or does. I think if you love something that much, like we love dance, you have to be really, really selfish in your approach in the way of doing it for you and making sure that you're happy, and you're doing it for the right reasons. If you enjoy it, then there's absolutely no reason or no-- yeah, no reason why you should stop.

So I would definitely just tell my younger self to always-- sorry, to never take anything for granted, to always live in that moment, to really, really enjoy what you're doing, take every single opportunity that presents itself because you get to learn so much. You get to meet all these different people.

I don't know about you guys, but every dancer that you meet, you're guaranteed an interesting conversation with them. They've always done something crazy or cool, or they've seen something incredible. So there's always something to talk about. So in taking all of those different opportunities, you're able to meet these amazing people and learn from them. And they're learning from you.

So yeah, it's always going to that audition or performing in that festival and all of those sort of things, I think, is really, really important. So yeah. Whoa, that was a long answer. But I would just say, take every opportunity, never take anything for granted, and don't worry about what everybody else thinks.

MILLA: What's the biggest thing you've learned off someone?

PETE EVANS: I would say the biggest thing that I've learned as a professional dancer and as a teacher and someone that has made this their career, I would say that there's always room for everybody within the dance world.

So I think that there's a really strange misconception that you will go to an audition, and they're only taking 1 or 2 people, and that's that, whereas I think it needs to be taught more that there is so much room for everybody, all different types of people, within the dance world. And they're able to-- there's always going to be a job that's suited to you and an experience, even, that's suited to you.

And I think that that's really, really important. And I learned that later in life, I would say, in my dance career. And once you do learn that and once you do accept that, it just becomes so much more exciting, I think. I would say that's probably the biggest thing that I've learned. Something that's that profound to me, I would say, would probably be that.

ELOISE: What has been a highlight or a memorable moment so far with the Arts Unit?

PETE EVANS: OK, I know how to answer this straight away. On my first year of Schools Spectacular, standing in Qudos Bank Arena with a tiny little headset microphone on, directing so many dancers on this giant arena floor, and feeling like an absolute rock star.

I think the fact that the Arts Unit were able to give me that opportunity, let alone all of these other dancers, to be a part of something so mammoth and something that's so internationally loved and viewed, not just in Australia but around the world, that was a real pinch-me moment for me, I would say.

I also remember growing up and watching Schools Spectacular every single Christmas with my parents and always being so jealous that I wasn't able to be a part of it. So I think being able to do that full-circle moment, to go back to be a part of it on the creative team, is unbeatable. That was absolutely my favourite moment so far with the Arts Unit.

ELOISE: Did you teach Schools Spec last year?

PETE EVANS: I did. I have taught Schools Spec every year since 2018, with the exception of the COVID years. But yes, I was lucky enough to be on the creative team last year. I was also lucky enough to be given a featured duo. So that was a whole different ballpark, again, in the creative process and things like that. I work really closely with Neale Whittaker on the hip-hops. I've been doing that the past couple of years, which has been super fun.

MILLA: That's cool.

PETE EVANS: Very cool. It's our favourite part of the year. And then to be able to do a lyrical on 2 very, very talented male dancers was also very, very special. So yeah, I did. I was there last year.

ELOISE AND MILLA: Can you tell us an interesting fact about yourself?

PETE EVANS: Does it have to be anything to do with dance, or can it be anything?

ELOISE AND MILLA: Anything.

PETE EVANS: Wow, you guys are very in sync.

[laughter]

OK, my go-to fun fact is when I was younger, in primary school, my parents used to rent lighthouses around Australia. So I used to travel around Australia staying, months at a time, at a lighthouse, just living there and hanging out with my brother. I got to stay in the 'Round the Twist' lighthouse, which was pretty cool.

That's kind of the-- my go-to fun fact. I just think it's something that no one else that I know of has been able to do. So I think that that's pretty cool. Mum and Dad always used to say that wherever there's a lighthouse, there's somewhere interesting and beautiful. So yeah, that was pretty cool. It was a fun way to spend my childhood.

ELOISE: Yeah.

MILLA: Do you like the ocean?

PETE EVANS: I love the ocean. I love the ocean. So I grew up in the Blue Mountains, so I was far away from the ocean. So the minute I could, I moved straight to the beach. And I have lived there ever since, and I don't see myself leaving. I love the water too much. Do you love it?

MILLA: When I go to Hawaii, I am always in the water, and my sister's shopping.

PETE EVANS: 100%-- 100%. Yeah, OK. You've got your priorities straight. That's good. Well done.

ELOISE AND MILLA: Thanks for being on our podcast, Pete.

PETE EVANS: So in sync, still. Thank you so much for having me, guys. It was a pleasure.

ELOISE: Thank you.

MILLA: Thank you.

PETE EVANS: Bye, guys.

ELOISE AND MILLA: Bye.

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

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ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au.

Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW Department of Education, 2023.

JOANNE KING: The dance team at the Arts Unit of the NSW Department of Education have produced this podcast as part of the 'Listen @ The Arts Unit' series. This podcast is produced on Gadigal and Cadigal land of the Eora nation. We pay our respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land with further acknowledgment of the many lands this podcast will be listened to across Australia.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art, storytelling, music and dance, along with the people, hold the memories of Australia's traditions, culture and hopes. Let us also acknowledge any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders and people in our presence today who guide us with their wisdom.

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ANNOUNCER: Listen @ The Arts Unit.

[upbeat music playing]

JOANNE KING: My name is Joanne King, and I am the dance performance officer at the Arts Unit for the NSW Department of Education. This episode, the hosts Arielle and Aishi spoke with the NSW Public School's Junior Dance Ensemble tutor, Millie Slennet.

Millie is a professional dancer, freelance choreographer, creative director, adjudicator and host of 'The Dance Pod' podcast. She currently travels around Australia teaching workshops, choreographing for various companies and studios, and adjudicating. Millie is a touring teaching artist at the Sydney Dance Company.

And you may have most recently spotted Millie on season one of 'The Traitors Australia' for Channel 10. This is a chance to learn more about Millie's experience in the industry, and what it's like working with the NSW Public School's Junior Dance Ensemble. Thanks for tuning in to this episode.

ARIELLE: I'm Arielle and I attend Burwood Girls High School.

AISHI: I'm Aishi and I attend Northmead Creative and Performing Arts High School.

ARIELLE: Our first question is, what is it that you love about teaching dance at the NSW State Dance Ensemble?

MILLIE SLENNET: I love being able to see a very, very broad range of dancers come from all over the state, ones that have had different backgrounds, different training, some not a lot of training at all, and being able to nurture those individuals for what they need rather than trying to kind of conform everyone into one kind of dancer. Being able to nurture everyone individually is probably my favourite thing.

AISHI: What has been your highlight or memorable moment so far with the Arts Unit dance stream for 2023?

MILLIE SLENNET: For me it's being able to sit on the audition panel and watch you all come in as individuals, some of you that have done State Dance before, some of you who have never stepped foot in that audition room before, watching what happens there, and then the selection process to seeing you all in the studio. That's probably my favourite thing is day one rocking up and seeing all of your lovely faces from audition and seeing who actually made it into the ensemble.

ARIELLE: How do you find juggling dance and other aspects of life? And what do you do to cope with that?

MILLIE SLENNET: So I have a very unique career path when it comes to working in dance land, as I call it. So I've got a bunch of different things that I do in the dance world as a freelance artist. And then I'm also a veterinary nurse, so I juggle working in 2 very different fields. And I think being able to dip in and out of both is what helps keep me quite grounded and be able to focus when I am in each kind of job role. And then I think hanging out with my dogs is my happy place. So when I'm not working, that's what I'm doing.

ARIELLE: What are your dogs' names?

MILLIE SLENNET: My dogs are called Humphrey and Herb. And they're kind of little Instagram celebrities. They've got their own account. And I'm kind of like a dog manager.

AISHI: What got you into dance in the beginning?

MILLIE SLENNET: I was thrown into ballet when I was about 3, and I never left. To be honest, I really loved it. I got to-- that was my creative outlet. And I just-- yeah, I haven't stopped.

AISHI: What dance studio did you dance at when you were younger?

MILLIE SLENNET: So I started at North Balgowlah School of Dance. And I was there till I was probably about 12. Then I moved to Brooke Henderson Dance Studios in Brookvale, which has now changed ownership and is a different name now. And then from there, I went to Newtown Performing Arts. And then I went and trained full-time in New York with Broadway Dance Centre.

ARIELLE: What was your favourite dance memory?

MILLIE SLENNET: My favourite dance memory to be honest was probably finding out that I got accepted for the program to go to New York and train full-time. That was very, very exciting and a bit of a change of pace, because I'd never lived out of home on my own and definitely not overseas before.

ARIELLE: What was it like working in New York compared to Australia?

MILLIE SLENNET: Working in New York and overseas in general, I think, is very, very different. So when you get to a point where you are auditioning for professional roles, and you're trying to make it as a professional dancer, the audition pool in Australia-- you'll find when you get to that age-- is quite small and the jobs are quite limited, which is a good thing, because it pushes us. And Australian dancers are known for being exceptionally hungry.

But when you go overseas, the pool is much bigger. And you could go to 5 auditions in one day and not run into the same group of people, so it's just a-- it's a bigger pool.

AISHI: In your opinion, what dance style is more valuable to learn, ballet or performing arts?

MILLIE SLENNET: Well, I think everyone needs a ballet background of some description, even if you're a hip hop dancer and that's what you love. I think having some technical grounding and understanding from the get-go. I think everyone needs a bit of ballet. And then you can go out and practise versatility in different genres.

AISHI: So you think that at the start they need to do ballet, but they don't have to keep doing it?

MILLIE SLENNET: I think it's always good to have in your back pocket. I think when you're still growing, when your bodies are growing, and you're developing, and you're trying to figure out where you want to fit in and what sort of pathway you want to take with dance, it's a very good, steady genre to have. And if you do want to go down the path of full-time and things, they will drill ballet into you as well. So if you already have that from the get-go, it's where all your foundation is.

ARIELLE: What advice can you give to dancers for the future?

MILLIE SLENNET: Oh my goodness, so many things. I think the biggest thing is making sure that you really focus on what makes you happy and what you enjoy and why you dance, because I think the second you forget why you love it so much and why you're doing it is when you just fade into the background, or you become a bit of a robot and you are blending in with everyone else. Your goal as a dancer is to stand out for your own unique reasons.

AISHI: What do you like most in dance, for example, performing, teaching, learning, watching, et cetera?

MILLIE SLENNET: So this has definitely changed for me over the years. I was so set on only being a professional dancer. I wanted to be the one performing. I wanted someone else to be telling me what to do. And I still love doing bits and pieces of that.

But I think when I was sort of in my early 20s, something kind of flipped for me. I got a bit of a taste for what it was like to choreograph and be on the creative side. And that's definitely where I prefer to sit these days, because for me, being able to sit back and watch a work that I created and be able to pull it apart, put it back together, make it how I want it to look, that's what I really love from a creative point these days.

ARIELLE: What is your favourite dance style and why?

MILLIE SLENNET: Oh my goodness, so I jump around. I really like to make sure that I'm continuing to be versatile, like what we talked about before. I'm very heavy in contemporary, obviously, and that's kind of what we do a lot of here. But jazz, Broadway jazz, commercial jazz are also part of my kind of main hub of genres. I can't pick one, if I'm honest. It depends what mood I'm in-- either contemporary, lyrical, or Broadway, commercial jazz.

ARIELLE: What sort of process do you go through when creating a dance piece?

MILLIE SLENNET: So my process for creating dance pieces is a very different approach to a lot of other people that I know. I work very much on the fly. So what that means for me is I wait until I physically have those bodies in the room, and I wait to see how you all move, and I test certain things out on bodies.

I don't necessarily go in with a huge game plan. I like to work on the spot and work with my dancers and see where we can take things. And I really like watching. Rather than it be 120%, all of me giving you everything, I really like to see what you can come up with.

So for example, what we've done so far, I asked you all to pick a funky pose. It could be anything that you liked. And even just from that I could see points of your personality or ways in which your brain is working creatively. So I work on the fly, on the spot. I'll usually have an idea of where I want things to go. But I don't plan things start to finish and then put it on the dancers.

AISHI: And also, was there a specific person who inspired you to become a choreographer or who helped you make dances?

MILLIE SLENNET: So I really found my own pathway with this. I have-- obviously, there are some fabulous people in the industry that I really look up to. But I've never sort of pinpointed one person exactly.

And I've really-- I think that that's been an important part of my creative process is just figuring things out for myself, what works, what doesn't, what reads well, what doesn't read well. And if you ever go down the path of that, being able to sit at the front and actually look at something and go, um, it falls a bit flat, or that actually looked really nice-- how can we make it better? It's been sort of a personal growth journey for me.

ARIELLE: Do you think that working in America, in New York influenced your style of dance and what you like to choreograph?

MILLIE SLENNET: I think going to-- great question, by the way. I think going to America and being able to see what else was out there really opened my eyes to what I could do as a creative. So I think it was at about that point-- I was 19 when I went and studied over there-- and that was when I realised that I could do a lot more in the choreographic scene, as much as I could still continue to be a professional dancer. So that was a real turning point for me. And I think if I hadn't have gone there and had that experience, I don't know where I would be today.

AISHI: What were your other hobbies when you were a child? And were you 100% definitely going to be a dancer from a young age?

MILLIE SLENNET: I think I always knew that I would do it long term. There definitely came a point where I had to make a decision, because I was very sports-heavy when I was younger. I did a lot of surf lifesaving. I was playing water polo, playing touch footy, all of that fun stuff that I'm sure you guys probably-- do you have outside-- you obviously have outside dance hobbies. What do you guys do?

AISHI: I play cricket and netball.

MILLIE SLENNET: I love that.

ARIELLE: And I play the clarinet.

MILLIE SLENNET: Cool, so you've got things outside of this, right? For me, I got to a real pointy end where obviously to be a dancer, there's certain elements of the body that you really need to be conditioning and working on. And then if you're doing another extreme sport, like surf lifesaving and going down the path of being an iron woman, it's a completely different body build and ways of training.

And they kind of get to a point where they don't really complement each other anymore. So I had to make a decision, and I chose dance. And I was probably about 13, 14 at that point. And then I really haven't looked back.

AISHI: So at the start of our lessons every week, we share fun facts. So what would your fun fact be today, Millie?

MILLIE SLENNET: So this is my favourite part of every single lesson I think, because it means that I get to know you all so well, and for weird and wonderful reasons. Really get to dive into everyone's lives, and you guys get to know a lot about us as well.

Today my fun fact was extra super special, because I can't really hide it anymore. And that is because I'm having a baby at the end of the year. So that's why I'm sitting here in all my baggy clothes-- yeah, woohoo!-- in my baggy clothes rather than my beautiful, tight-fitted dancewear, like you both. [laughs]

AISHI: Do you know what gender your baby's going to be?

MILLIE SLENNET: I do. It's going to be a girl. So I'm very excited. I would have been excited either way, but I'm too nosy, so I had to find out. I'm not good with surprises.

My question before we wrap this up is what have you 2 enjoyed the most about being part of state dance ensemble so far this year?

AISHI: I enjoyed making new friends, because I made a lot of new friends in my group and also going out of my comfort zone with the dance. So the dance we're doing this year is a lot more different than what I've ever done before.

MILLIE SLENNET: I love that.

ARIELLE: And I've loved kind of as well, like it's very different to all of the dance that I've done before-- but I also just the dynamic. It's kind of different than competition dance or just general dance in the studio, like it's-- I don't know how to explain it. It's different. And it kind of feels more like people who really want to be there and to dance all together, so I really like that.

MILLIE SLENNET: And that means we are doing our job. Yes!

JOANNE KING: Thanks for tuning in to 'Listen @ The Arts Unit', our series introducing the 2023 NSW Public Schools Dance Ensemble tutors.

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ANNOUNCER: For more information on our programs, explore our website at artsunit.nsw.edu.au. Background music licensed by Envato Elements. Copyright, State of NSW (Department of Education), 2023.